Cayman S engine failure and how Porsche will deal with you.

[Skrambles]

OP, this is a sickening story. Given that you bought it new from an OPC and maintained it with them, they should show some goodwill. It's easy to say that you should've had the extended warranty, but, if this is really a latent defect, Porsche should at the very least make some contribution to the cost. I went through something very similar with BMW last year and would've sued but was outside the 6 year limitation period.

[mollytherocker]

Skrambles said:

OP, this is a sickening story. Given that you bought it new from an OPC and maintained it with them, they should show some goodwill. It's easy to say that you should've had the extended warranty, but, if this is really a latent defect, Porsche should at the very least make some contribution to the cost. I went through something very similar with BMW last year and would've sued but was outside the 6 year limitation period.

The OPC is paying for the parts. I believe that the OP is paying the labour.

MTR

[Skrambles]

mollytherocker said:

The OPC is paying for the parts. I believe that the OP is paying the labour.

MTR

Sorry, meant to say contribution to cost of labour!

[NA55]

rdjohn said:

Unlike PCGB, the Barchetta Owners Club were more concerned about the interests of their members than the manufacturer and started a group action. When things started to “hit the fan” the general press and then BBC’s Watchdog got hold of the story. FIAT quickly relented and paid the cost of repairs on cars that had been serviced properly and were low mileage and gave a significant contribution to other cars that had higher mileage.

Most sensible and pragmatic response I have read so far... I myself I have purchased a 2006 (55 plate) Cayman S from an OPC recently and luckily have 2 years waranty but the shine has definitely been removed from the purchase.

Porsche owners whether they have a warranty or not should be on the side of the buyer and not the faceless multinational corporation... an issue obviously exists with the engine and as such should be recognised. We should be pulling together and making sure we are heard. The whole well this is why you should get a warranty does not sit well with me, the issue is due to a design fault pure and simple and someone other than the end user should be held accountabble... yes i am look at you Porsche

[rog007]

Arenki said:

996/997s would probably cost the same as a bottle of water...

I hope they don't get that expensive!

[Carl_Docklands]

So the logic of the past few posts seems to be:

1. Don't get a warranty
2. If something breaks with the engine get a lawyer, its not your fault
3. Call watchdog
4. Start a website with everyone else who has had a broken engine
5. Wait for the manufacturer to buckle and pay for all costs.

Sounds great to me, I agree, lets start a website and all put in £50, its cheaper than the warranty!

[mollytherocker]

cragswinter said:

Here is the original 2006 thread that led to the successful court case
http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=242384

MTR- you don't need to be a member to read it just register!

Thanks, just registered. The thread doesnt include any conclusion or even that he went to court. Only that he got the RAC, Trading Standards involved and wrote some letters. Although, his full documentation of the strip down and associated reports of a manufacturing fault is strong proof.

Is there an update thread?

MTR

[davey68]

Not sure how many of you visit 911uk forums but there is a similar thread running under the 997 forum titled 'No goodwill from Porsche'. It makes interesting reading and looks like Porsche have lost another long time owner of P cars!!

[rob.kellock]

mollytherocker said:

Is there an update thread?

MTR

Erm, yeah, the one I posted and quoted the relevant bit from...

[nickfrog]

davey68 said:

Not sure how many of you visit 911uk forums but there is a similar thread running under the 997 forum titled 'No goodwill from Porsche'. It makes interesting reading and looks like Porsche have lost another long time owner of P cars!!

That's the thing though, for every lost enthusiast Porsche owner, they gain 5 new "lifestyle" owners, who will also sign blank cheques for servicing, brakes etc...

[Kieran]

What a difference a year makes, the OP on this thread was practically run off the forum as a heretic for daring to mention Watchdog and Porsche in the same breath...

http://pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&amp...

[Globs]

RudeDog said:

Globs said:

Rubbish.
Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.

The bike comparison has some validity but remember a bike engine has nowhere near the same level of load to deal with. Most bikes are +/- 30kg either side of 190kg, a Cayman S is 1340kg. The extra weight puts a lot more strain on engine components.

Rubbish.

Many bike engines are now being used in cars, it's a fast growing trend.
Remember we're actually talking about 100 year old technology here:
a) Oil seals that seal
b) Bearings that don't seize up
c) Engines that don't overheat

These problems have been solved again and again. Even 1970s British Leyland engines generally managed this!
To be blunter, specifically the fixes are:

1) A splash guard on the engine side of the oil seal
2) An open ball race on the IMS shaft that gets oils through it
3) Thermostat on the outlet. Faster block coolant flow.
4) Closed deck head
5) Slightly bigger big-end bearings

BMW manage it. Nissan manage it. Kia manage it. All the Japanese manage it.
As delivered the engine was not fit for purpose, simple as that.

The rest of the car is good - the chassis and body guys did their jobs, the engine department however appears to be run by someone who didn't even bother to test their engines properly. There are no excuses.

[Skrambles]

Carl_Docklands said:

So the logic of the past few posts seems to be:

1. Don't get a warranty
2. If something breaks with the engine get a lawyer, its not your fault
3. Call watchdog
4. Start a website with everyone else who has had a broken engine
5. Wait for the manufacturer to buckle and pay for all costs.

Sounds great to me, I agree, lets start a website and all put in £50, its cheaper than the warranty!

Hmm... The logic is actually that the sale is subject to the Sale of Goods Act and that the car should be of satisfactory quality, regardless of any warranty. If there is a serious latent defect then the car may not be of satisfactory quality and there is a 6 year limitation period, though the seller will be the dealer of course rather than the manufacturer and the dealer would no doubt have a corresponding right of recourse against the manufacturer

[IMI A]

Very surprised Porsche not replacing engine under goodwill as OP has had the car from new. This is a known fault on these engines hence I'd slap a writ on their desks.

[robrobc]

SFO said:

but who has?

Honda VTEC?

[Carl_Docklands]

Skrambles said:

Carl_Docklands said:

So the logic of the past few posts seems to be:

1. Don't get a warranty
2. If something breaks with the engine get a lawyer, its not your fault
3. Call watchdog
4. Start a website with everyone else who has had a broken engine
5. Wait for the manufacturer to buckle and pay for all costs.

Sounds great to me, I agree, lets start a website and all put in £50, its cheaper than the warranty!

Hmm... The logic is actually that the sale is subject to the Sale of Goods Act and that the car should be of satisfactory quality, regardless of any warranty. If there is a serious latent defect then the car may not be of satisfactory quality and there is a 6 year limitation period, though the seller will be the dealer of course rather than the manufacturer and the dealer would no doubt have a corresponding right of recourse against the manufacturer

So, you use a product for a number of years, it breaks and then all the costs to fix should be placed back onto the manufacturer?

So, what's the point of a warranty then? Based on this reasoning, we don't need one.

If anything goes wrong with my electrics, transmission or engine in the first six years, I demand it to be fixed in full and at their expense and if they do not, I sue.

Seems a bit thin to me, good luck, let me know when i can cancel my warranty.

[rog007]

Carl_Docklands said:

So, what's the point of a warranty then? Based on this reasoning, we don't need one.
If anything goes wrong with my electrics, transmission or engine in the first six years, I demand it to be fixed in full and at their expense and if they do not, I sue. Seems a bit thin to me, good luck, let me know when i can cancel my warranty.

This is exactly the issue; some warranties can be an (expensive) irrelevance. If you purchase any goods from a dealer, the UK has passed law to protect you/me as consumers. This law, the Sale of Goods Act, is what protects you. If you look hard at any warranty paperwork, you will see the words "this does not affect/in addition to your statutory rights" i.e. SoGA.

Of course it has limitations, just like all the warranties out there. I have successfully used my statutory rights on a number of occasions, mainly with vehicles and white goods.

[Carl_Docklands]

rog007 said:

Carl_Docklands said:

So, what's the point of a warranty then? Based on this reasoning, we don't need one.
If anything goes wrong with my electrics, transmission or engine in the first six years, I demand it to be fixed in full and at their expense and if they do not, I sue. Seems a bit thin to me, good luck, let me know when i can cancel my warranty.

This is exactly the issue; some warranties can be an (expensive) irrelevance. If you purchase any goods from a dealer, the UK has passed law to protect you/me as consumers. This law, the Sale of Goods Act, is what protects you. If you look hard at any warranty paperwork, you will see the words "this does not affect/in addition to your statutory rights" i.e. SoGA.

Of course it has limitations, just like all the warranties out there. I have successfully used my statutory rights on a number of occasions, mainly with vehicles and white goods.

Total agreement Rog, my point is that if you use a product for a number of years before the fault appears and there is no warranty taken out, you should expect a little cost sharing as between you and the manufacturer as, nobody makes a perfect car or TV, they all go wrong at some stage.

I would like Porsche to make a perfect car for £50k alas, this is just a pipe-dream not attached to reality. Whether Porsche could make a perfect car for £100k and provided the same performance (ala 993), I will leave to the engineers to work out but, I would not be able to afford one if they did.

[Globs]

Carl_Docklands said:

I would like Porsche to make a perfect car for £50k alas, this is just a pipe-dream not attached to reality.

No it's not a pipedream, it's very basic engineering, something you fail to comprehend.

1) A splash guard on the engine side of the oil seal
2) An open ball race on the IMS shaft that gets oils through it
3) Thermostat on the outlet. Faster block coolant flow.
4) Closed deck head
5) Slightly bigger big-end bearings

Selling a premium brand car trading on it's reputation for engineering excellence there is a reasonable expectation that the goods are fit for purpose. These M96/M97 are not fit for purpose, they have internal latent faults upon leaving the factory and it is reasonable to expect Porsche to pay for the damage that they couldn't be bothered or were too incompetent to design out over the past few years.

The reality is a small engineering firm (Hartech) has identified and provided fixes for these latent faults which the giant german brand leader has failed. We should not expect buyers to be paying for the internal politics in the engine division of Porsche. Period. And the Sales of Goods act agrees.

[faster_stueys]

Globs said:

Selling a premium brand car trading on it's reputation for engineering excellence there is a reasonable expectation that the goods are fit for purpose. These M96/M97 are not fit for purpose, they have internal latent faults upon leaving the factory and it is reasonable to expect Porsche to pay for the damage that they couldn't be bothered or were too incompetent to design out over the past few years.

The reality is a small engineering firm (Hartech) has identified and provided fixes for these latent faults which the giant german brand leader has failed. We should not expect buyers to be paying for the internal politics in the engine division of Porsche. Period. And the Sales of Goods act agrees.

Spot on