Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time

[eclou]

Guibo said:

eclou, I think Guyr's comment sums up why you can't ever accept this kind of comparison, and why your inference is flat out wrong. Unless a program shows only the timed lap, it doesn't meet your standard, and should thus summarily be dismissed; unless the Porsche wins, naturally. For you, unless it's a professional Porsche racer driving a modified Porsche on a track in which he is the instructor, the Porsche's time won't count.

It is you that started discounting the H2H video, not I. My contention is once a driver starts drifting the tires, they are overheated and will no longer achieve maximum grip. Once a driver starts drifting, he loses time. To argue against that belies ignorance. So you go on to argue that the recorded time was done without any drifting, this without any shred of evidence otherwise.

Next you are saying that it is invalid to consider experienced Porsche drivers' times at courses? Forgive me but it has been well known for some 4 decades now that the 911 requires a different finesse and tact to drive than the typical front engine sportscar. It would seem obvious to even the most blunt individual that a 911 driver would be able to extract better performance from a 911.

Guibo said:

The handbrake comment is absurd. Period.

An analogy clearly beyond your grip

Guibo said:

Regarding the Civic, I counted 3 laps of 1:40, not a 1:37. Point about the Civic is that you passed it off as stock when it's far, far from it. Not comparable to a guy who was brand new to the GT-R. And maybe that explains why he wasn't drifting the GT-R. Maybe he had all default settings on. If you're going to say he was slow in the GT3, then the case can be made that he was slow in the GT-R; that should also quell concerns about Millen's sandbagging. The point is, the *difference* is comfortably in the GT-R's favor, just like it's been in the UK tests. You can arbitrarily add 2 seconds to the GT-R's time if you wish, and it's still noticeably faster.
I ask you again: Do you honestly think a GT-R is no faster than a Mk2 997 C2S w/PDK?

Counting is a pretty basic skill. Second lap is the fastest of the 3 in the Civic. Drifting = sandbagging. It is obvious to most anyone with experience. If Hubinette was drifting the GTR in the same fashion as the GT3, I would say it was a comparable lap for entertainment, but neither should be considered indicative of the performance envelope of the car. To my knowledge, no PDK car has been tracked here in the US. When they start showing up, we'll know how it stacks up to the GTR.

Guibo said:

eclou said:

BTW by Ben Linney's own admission his GTR was not stock for the UK tests.

Really, where did he say this. Point me to a link, not some BS quote like you provided last time.

In Ben's words. Ben also has a Cobb accessport.

Guibo said:

As should anyone claiming to be an expert on Newton's theories. How did the GT-R, with its worse hp/wt ratio, blitz the GT3?

Guibo perhaps some further schooling would be beneficial for you - wheel torque is what accelerates a car. HP determines ultimate top speed capabilities. The GTR has seven gears, a shorter final drive, and 130ft/lb torque advantage. The GTR should be able to accelerate faster than a GT3, unless the owner prudently decides to leave LC off....

Guibo said:

I'm saying they're not comparable because the cars are not stock, driven by obviouly different drivers in their familiarity with the car, track conditions, etc.

Your original video argument stemmed from Drift King not necessarily running the timed lap with drifting. Next, Porsche drivers should be discounted from testing 911's, now conditions are variable and the results are not comparable. It is great to follow all the magazine results blindly, since I am certain no marketing funds sway their testing. In the real world however, the real truth comes out. From dead transmissions, to fluids overheating after 3-4 laps, to tires lasting <5k miles, to exorbitant maintenance bills, and plummeting values, there is no doubt that Godzilla is just an empty costume.

[Trommel]

eclou said:

there is no doubt that Godzilla is just an empty costume.

You have a 997 Turbo - actually drive a GT-R and then make an opinion. Once you have, you may have more credibility.

[eclou]

Trommel said:

eclou said:

there is no doubt that Godzilla is just an empty costume.

You have a 997 Turbo - actually drive a GT-R and then make an opinion. Once you have, you may have more credibility.

I don't doubt that it is a performance bargain, but even you have to admit that it is too heavy for any serious roadcourse work. Sure it has a couple of good laps in it, but after that the weight penalty cannot be hidden. I consider my 997tt too heavy at 3500lbs - did not really enjoy the stock suspension set-up at all. My 944 is down to about 2600lbs. The weight leads to excess wear and tear on consumables, and excess heat generation and retention. In general, I think all the manufacturers have gotten too caught up in the niceties that render sports cars into GT's.

[Guibo]

eclou said:

So you go on to argue that the recorded time was done without any drifting, this without any shred of evidence otherwise.

Now, let's take your logic to its logical conclusion: since they never showed a complete lap, neither of these cars did a complete lap. Are you sure you want to believe that? Well, of course you do, because you want to discount the test. Anything so the Porsche doesn't lose.

eclou said:

It would seem obvious to even the most blunt individual that a 911 driver would be able to extract better performance from a 911.

Ie, all tests in which a professional 911 driver isn't present with a tuned Porsche, the results are nullified. Great.

eclou said:

Counting is a pretty basic skill. Second lap is the fastest of the 3 in the Civic.

2nd lap, point to point from a reference on the start/finish, is 1:40. Check the vid at 1:58-3:38.

eclou said:

To my knowledge, no PDK car has been tracked here in the US. When they start showing up, we'll know how it stacks up to the GTR.

Your obvious Porsche bias is plain as day in your refusal to answer this question.
Oh, so only tests in the US count? Maybe for you, only tests in the US with a professional 911 racer and instructor at that track count. The GT-R (on Bridgestones) has gone head to head against the 997 w/PDK, and the results are always the same: 997 gets crushed.

Car, PCOTY
GT-R: 1:00.6
997: 1:03.2

Drivers Republic (with a GT-R they said felt weak, hardly any faster in the standing start)
GT-R: 2:10.3
997: 2:14.9

TopGear Australia (with a GT-R hard on its limiter)
GT-R: 1:09.46
997: 1:11.69

Test after test shows the GT-R quite close to the GT2, LP560-4, and F430 Scuderia. In the latest MT test, it is only 0.6s slower than the GT2 on a tight course. As R&T found (and Car Magazine indicates in its PCOTY issue), the GT-R does better on faster tracks. Do you seriously think the 997 w/PDK would be only 0.6s behind a GT2 on that track? If so, what does that say about hp/wt?

eclou said:

In Ben's words|http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=24731&view=findpost&p=353961[/url]. Ben also has a Cobb accessport.

He has a Cobb accessport now, not at the time of the 5th Gear test. At the time of the Car Magazine test, his car was fresh off the boat. Even if it had an exhaust, that's not likely to be worth a second on a lap (the margin by which it beat the Turbo, driven conservatively by someone who was already familiar with Turbos and gave the Turbo twice as many laps). Also, if you looked at the lap telemetry, the GT-R was comfortably faster in the corners, even on the mostly default settings. An exhaust isn't going to do anything for that.
You still haven't accounted for the Evo results, either.

eclou said:

Guibo perhaps some further schooling would be beneficial for you - wheel torque is what accelerates a car. HP determines ultimate top speed capabilities. The GTR has seven gears, a shorter final drive, and 130ft/lb torque advantage. The GTR should be able to accelerate faster than a GT3, unless the owner prudently decides to leave LC off....

Oh, so it's not as simple as hp/wt? Interesting. I've been led to believe by all the Porsche and Corvette doubters that hp/wt is all that matters. Other factors are also at play on the 'Ring, and that's what people who can't see beyond hp/wt will never be able to understand; well, when the PDK-equipped 997 is 8 seconds faster despite weighing 30kg more, they'll make the exception.

[Guibo]

Track report from a Z06 owner in his new GT-R:
"It could use a bit stronger brakes here, but these are stock brake pads... I will say these are the best brakes of any street car I have ever driven. No fade, all 2 hours I was on track. The pads were fin after this abuse as well, the rotors were ok as well. They have a good positive feel even if boiling hot. Impressive.
All of this happens in 1:02, about 2 seconds faster than I did in my Z06... Except... My Z had R compounds.
The GTR is a fairly easy car to drive hard. To be fast in it, you need to drive aggressively. A few times around turn 2, I could feel traction control, but basically it was seamless. Not intrusive at all. The tire wear I saw was acceptable, and not as bad as we were lead to believe. There is plenty of tread on the tires left after 2 hours of me kicking this car in the pants. My STi and WRX had much worse tire wear. The brakes were fine the whole day, all day and the pads have a lot left on em. Rotors did not warp or crack. Temps were constant in the oil and trany. Kept a close watch on that all day."
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=...

GT-R track report by owner of 997 Turbo (with 600+ hp):
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/1...
http://www.gtr-world.net/en_news/gtrblog/20080919-...

[Housey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Oh come on, this is epic informed debate conjecture.





I'd have your nan too.

[eclou]

Guibo said:

Now, let's take your logic to its logical conclusion: since they never showed a complete lap, neither of these cars did a complete lap. Are you sure you want to believe that? Well, of course you do, because you want to discount the test. Anything so the Porsche doesn't lose.

The video explains the reason for the disparity. You chose to ignore the clear evidence that the driver was throwing the results.

Guibo said:

Ie, all tests in which a professional 911 driver isn't present with a tuned Porsche, the results are nullified. Great.

Yes, and all GTR ring times not set by mother Suzuki-san with a troop of engineers are invalid as well...

Guibo said:

Your obvious Porsche bias is plain as day in your refusal to answer this question.
Oh, so only tests in the US count? Maybe for you, only tests in the US with a professional 911 racer and instructor at that track count. The GT-R (on Bridgestones) has gone head to head against the 997 w/PDK, and the results are always the same: 997 gets crushed.

Car, PCOTY
GT-R: 1:00.6
997: 1:03.2

Drivers Republic (with a GT-R they said felt weak, hardly any faster in the standing start)
GT-R: 2:10.3
997: 2:14.9

TopGear Australia (with a GT-R hard on its limiter)
GT-R: 1:09.46
997: 1:11.69

Test after test shows the GT-R quite close to the GT2, LP560-4, and F430 Scuderia. In the latest MT test, it is only 0.6s slower than the GT2 on a tight course. As R&T found (and Car Magazine indicates in its PCOTY issue), the GT-R does better on faster tracks. Do you seriously think the 997 w/PDK would be only 0.6s behind a GT2 on that track? If so, what does that say about hp/wt?

Test after test of non US and UK spec'd cars - in fact the same 1 car in the UK, and 3 cars in the US - and driven by Nissan sponsored drivers show brilliant GTR lap times. Fantastic, but the key is their laps of the competition cars are all setting times slower than even hobbyists in the US - I don't have any comparable info for UK lap times.

I formulate conclusions from real results from drivers I know, and using even my own results which are quite contradictory to the hype you have certainly blindly swallowed. It is the advertisers who bankroll the salaries at the magazines, and Nissan is no stranger to dodgy tactics.

Guibo said:

He has a Cobb accessport now, not at the time of the 5th Gear test.

and with the benefit of the exhaust mod ( 25hp gain on a 997tt), the GTR was but 0.5 s faster than a stock GTR. No drifting, yet Senna still preferred the 911. Still, hat's off to the GTR for even being on par for a lap.

But let's see what happens after a couple of laps:

$2k fluid service
dead expensive rotors
redline fluid temps
more redline fluid temps
250F trans oil temps!
255F trans oil temps!!
258F trans oil temps!!!
dead gearbox

Certainly Nissan has done well to push the bar for car enthusiasts, but beyond the magazine hype there is the reality of real world performance, real world ownership costs, real world failures, and real world warranty issues. So Guibo celebrate all you want the GTR wins the gold, albeit fools gold.

[eclou]

Guibo said:

Track report from a Z06 owner in his new GT-R:
"It could use a bit stronger brakes here, but these are stock brake pads... I will say these are the best brakes of any street car I have ever driven. No fade, all 2 hours I was on track. The pads were fin after this abuse as well, the rotors were ok as well. They have a good positive feel even if boiling hot. Impressive.
All of this happens in 1:02, about 2 seconds faster than I did in my Z06... Except... My Z had R compounds.
The GTR is a fairly easy car to drive hard. To be fast in it, you need to drive aggressively. A few times around turn 2, I could feel traction control, but basically it was seamless. Not intrusive at all. The tire wear I saw was acceptable, and not as bad as we were lead to believe. There is plenty of tread on the tires left after 2 hours of me kicking this car in the pants. My STi and WRX had much worse tire wear. The brakes were fine the whole day, all day and the pads have a lot left on em. Rotors did not warp or crack. Temps were constant in the oil and trany. Kept a close watch on that all day."
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=...

Z06 brakes are well known to be weak, and amongst the 1st thing Z06 owners change for tracking. Not a great comparison there.

Guibo said:

GT-R track report by owner of 997 Turbo (with 600+ hp):
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/1...
http://www.gtr-world.net/en_news/gtrblog/20080919-...

So driver C goes to Reno-Fernley and runs his first time on the track. What kind of comparison is that? Typically it takes a whole weekend to learn a 2 mile track let alone a 4 mile track. The telemetry of someone running in a intermediate group is somehow valid for comparison? Comments from other drivers there were that he didn't seem to know what he was doing at all.

Next driver C goes to T-Hill and runs laps a second faster in his 911 than his GTR, but still some 6-8 seconds off the mark of good (amateur) GT3 drivers. This does not help your argument that the GTR trumps all 911's!

[Guibo]

LOL, looks like I've hit a nerve.

eclou said:

Yes, and all GTR ring times not set by mother Suzuki-san with a troop of engineers are invalid as well...

Like Porsche doesn't also send a troop of engineers for their testing? Please. (Notice I haven't doubted Porsche's result for the Turbo even though HvS was 14 seconds slower .)

eclou said:

Test after test of non US and UK spec'd cars - in fact the same 1 car in the UK, and 3 cars in the US - and driven by Nissan sponsored drivers show brilliant GTR lap times. Fantastic, but the key is their laps of the competition cars are all setting times slower than even hobbyists in the US - I don't have any comparable info for UK lap times.

No, it's not the same one in the UK. Evo's test car was a black one, not Linney's white car. The one tested by Drivers Republic was grey. That's 3 right there. There's a 4th (also black). Quit making stuff up just to fit your agenda.
Gary Thomason, who set the autocross time for R&T isn't Nissan sponsored. Nor was the IRL driver who took them on the oval. Nor are C&D editors. You'll really cry and make any excuse for Porsches losing test after test, won't you. Here's another one for you:
Professional Porsche driver Randy Pobst testing US-spec cars at Laguna Seca, where he is 2 seconds a lap faster in a car he barely even knows.


His regular ride:


What's the fanciful excuse now? Unfair alignment? Haha.

eclou said:

and with the benefit of the exhaust mod ( 25hp gain on a 997tt), the GTR was but 0.5 s faster than a stock GTR. No drifting, yet Senna still preferred the 911.

Are we debating preference or are we debating speed? I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Senna clearly shows a bias toward the 911, yet he's slower in it. Period.

eclou said:

...real world failures, and real world warranty issues.

Should I bring up repeated RMS, intermediate shaft failures, slipped/cracked cylinder liners, blown turbos, crumbling PCCB's?

[Guibo]

eclou said:

Z06 brakes are well known to be weak, and amongst the 1st thing Z06 owners change for tracking. Not a great comparison there.

Didn't realize there was a comparison there, regarding brake longevity. Can you point me toward it?
No comment about the Z06 being slower even on R-compounds? Isn't a Z06 more or less the same around most tracks as the Turbo, if not generally faster overall?

eclou said:

What kind of comparison is that? Typically it takes a whole weekend to learn a 2 mile track let alone a 4 mile track. The telemetry of someone running in a intermediate group is somehow valid for comparison?

It's a comparison of how fast the GT-R is against a modified Turbo, driven by someone who's used to driving Turbos. Look at that telemetry again, and you'll see how the GT-R can hold its own on track even against a modified Turbo.
See? Nothing is ever good enough for you. Excuse after excuse after excuse. How does it feel to live with such paranoia? Even an ostrich has to come up for air sometime.

eclou said:

...but still some 6-8 seconds off the mark of good (amateur) GT3 drivers. This does not help your argument that the GTR trumps all 911's!

All 911's? Now you're flat out lying. I never said the GT-R trumps all 911's. Think before posting next time.
And those amateur GT3 drivers are in bone stock cars? Source, please.

How's this (GT3 owner with new GT-R):
"We ran the cars simultaneously with my son and I taking turns in each car and swapping leader/follower, and concluded that the cars are pretty evenly matched in the hands of experienced but non-pro drivers. In the final analysis, the GT-R is probably a touch quicker, because of it superior corner exit speeds and ability to put power down ie. brilliant 4 wheel drive system, and inspires more confidence since it tends to be more stable, error resistant, and the paddle shifters allow one to fully concentrate on braking and turning."
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.p...

Magazine results: Can you show me even one or two independent tests in which the Turbo or GT3 is faster than the GT-R?
Real-world results: Can you show me even one or two driving impressions from owners in which the GT-R is slower than a Turbo or GT3?

[Steve Rance]

We dont care any more..

[LanCat]

Steve Rance said:

We dont care any more..

and some of us never did. Can I have the last 20 minutes of my life back?

[shoestring7]

Steve Rance said:

We dont care any more..

Yeah, but this is the internet: there's always someone who cares enough to respond to multiple quoted posts with more multiple quoted posts

SS7

[Dr S]

Steve Rance said:

We dont care any more..

2nded - Daz: why don't you close this thread...

[Pugsey]

Look, look!! They're even including diagrams now. It'll be graphs next. Where will it end? Who knows. Who ca.........................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Pugsey]

The price of Cod has just gone up by 10p per kilo btw.

[timmo]

after my amazing lap in the KW Nissan GTR I asked a very well known German Racer/Tuner about the Nissan GTR

I wont say what he said except



VLN - who are always in the top 5 - 10 times 4 hour races on the Nurburgring


Says it all really


end of subject

[Guyr]

timmo said:

after my amazing lap in the KW Nissan GTR I asked a very well known German Racer/Tuner about the Nissan GTR

I wont say what he said except
VLN - who are always in the top 5 - 10 times 4 hour races on the Nurburgring
Says it all really
end of subject

Sorry Tim I miss the point of this, do you expect a GTR to be doing well in the VLN when you cannot yet buy them in Europe????

[timmo]

I drove a 997 GT2 from the ring to London last week ( 2nd one ive driven ) - its a different level in speed and handling from a 996 GT2


The Nissan GTR is a good car but not in the same league as the Porsche ( IMHO)

the GTR is too heavy/will chew tyres and drink fuel


wait another few years and this is what everyone will say !

There were 6 GTRs at the RMA Nordscheife 2 day event - im
sure they are secretly testing/sounding out whether to race or not - they even have a GTR academy there.

My view point is they wont race the GTR but develop and race the new 350Z style car - its a lot lighter

[tomw2000]

I've just gouged my own eyes out with a blunt spoon and chewed one of my arms off.

IF we get to graphs, can someone PM me please?