Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time

[Pesty]

tomw2000 said:

I've just gouged my own eyes out with a blunt spoon and chewed one of my arms off.

IF we get to graphs, can someone PM me please?

Tomw earlier.


Do they even know what they are arguing about anymore?

[DanH]

timmo said:

after my amazing lap in the KW Nissan GTR I asked a very well known German Racer/Tuner about the Nissan GTR

I wont say what he said except



VLN - who are always in the top 5 - 10 times 4 hour races on the Nurburgring


Says it all really


end of subject

lol, have to go a long way to find a German that would talk down one of their countries marques!

Still I'm looking forward to seeing GTRs on track. I really couldn't give a fk whats quickest but will have fun finding out.

[ScottL]

Dan - in the unlikely event a GTR does come past you, hang in there. Very soon it will run out of fuel or cook tyres/brakes/transmission etc.. and you can retake your rightful place again

[hesperus]

i finally got to drive a mate's GTR on some nice fast open roads.

the bottom-lines FOR ME:

1) with my limited talent, i can say i would be faster in the GTR in 90% of real world conditions (both road & track) than i would be in ANY of my Porsches (which includes a 997 GT3 & a Ruf RT12). by "real world" conditions, i am excluding here any longish straight where the Ruf would obviously leave the GTR for dead.

2) its got nothing to do with the GTR's power, acceleration or anything easily measurable by the usual quarter mile, 0-60mph and similar statistics. it has everything to do with how the GTR feels more planted, secure and well balanced than the 911's. it is "effortless speed" personified. simply astonishing, and you have to try it before you sg it off.

3) with its ruthless efficiency, it DOES take the driver out of the equation. this is NOT to say it is not exciting, because it is. in much the same way that a good video game is exciting (i'm not being sarcastic there). but it simply does not have what i would call the "granularity" and "realism" of a proper, "traditional" RWD sports car such as a 911.

4) i would take a GT3 over the GTR almost every single time (the only exception being if i had to run a one or two lap race with my life on the line). in a few years' time, there will be a newer, more sophisticated, and FASTER car than the GTR... maybe the R36 GTR? it would be faster, but it wouldn't be any FUNNER than the GT3.

this isn't brand snobbery on my part. when Nissan announced their targets with the GTR, i laughed and believed Nissan couldn't possibly beat the 911. In terms of outright performance-- even w/o respect to the price-- they have achieved their goal in many many ways. my drive in the GTR has convinced me of this, and i've had to admit i was wrong.

but it has also highlighted what it is i truly find exciting in a car. outright SPEED is part of that... but it isn't the only thing.

i believe the GTR deserves its place in history (a bit like the Honda NSX)... in has moved the game on, and reset the targets for pure speed for the establishment. IMO it will be remembered for how it truly made supercar performance accessible more than any other car before it, and gave Porsche a bloody nose... but it will not be remembered for being one of the best DRIVER'S cars.

[forza whites]

Bit like the NSX ?

The NSX I drove was dire, bland, slow, and totally underwhelming

[NoelWatson]

forza whites said:

Bit like the NSX ?

The NSX I drove was dire, bland, slow, and totally underwhelming

Which year was it?

[hesperus]

forza whites said:

Bit like the NSX ?

The NSX I drove was dire, bland, slow, and totally underwhelming

1) NSX is memorable PRIMARILY for how it proved to the world that you could have a proper mid-engined sports car, without the compromises that Ferrari's and even Porsche's at the time had. It was a shock to the establishment, and we can thank Honda for giving a wake up call to Maranello and Stuttgart.

2) For many people, latter NSX's, particularly the NSX-R are proper driving tools. Do a search here, and IIRC, you'll find guys like Flemke saying that the NSX is fundamentally a better balanced car than the GT3, even if the latter is ultimately faster round a circuit, thanks to better brakes and higher HP.

The NSX WON'T be remembered for #2, but IMO it is underrated in this area; again, particularly the latter models. Just because it is limited to 280HP doesn't mean it isn't a great platform. Lest we forget, the great Ayrton Senna had a hand in its development.

[forza whites]

NoelWatson said:

forza whites said:

Bit like the NSX ?

The NSX I drove was dire, bland, slow, and totally underwhelming

Which year was it?

Think it was a 03...

It was Bland
Typical Japenese 'copied' design cues/creases
Typical Japenese interior
It didn't feel quick at all
It WAS trying to be a Ferrari, but failed miserably...No presence, no thrill, no 'experience'..didn't feel special... hence my term bland.

Only drove it on the road in the UK. No doubt if it had been HALF THE PRICE (ala GTR) of the competition, Honda would have sold many more....

[eclou]

by 03 the NSX was just a tired old maid, but the early 90's cars were more the revolutionary cars that Hesperus was referring to. However, the NSX cars were reliable, lightweight (2900lbs) and without major flaws like the GTR's transmission

Edited by eclou on Monday 17th November 13:24

[forza whites]

eclou said:

by 03 the NSX was just a tired old maid, but the early 90's cars were more the revolutionary cars that Hesperus was referring to. However, the NSX cars were reliable, lightweight (2900lbs) and without major flaws like the GTR's transmission

Edited by eclou on Monday 17th November 13:24

Thats exactly what if felt like....No doubt in early 91...when it was brought out to challenge the 348 it was a better all round car than its Ferrari counterpart....The 993/996/997, 355/360 consigned the NSX to very very few sales....

[911teo]

hesperus said:

i finally got to drive a mate's GTR on some nice fast open roads.

the bottom-lines FOR ME:

1) with my limited talent, i can say i would be faster in the GTR in 90% of real world conditions (both road & track) than i would be in ANY of my Porsches (which includes a 997 GT3 & a Ruf RT12). by "real world" conditions, i am excluding here any longish straight where the Ruf would obviously leave the GTR for dead.

2) its got nothing to do with the GTR's power, acceleration or anything easily measurable by the usual quarter mile, 0-60mph and similar statistics. it has everything to do with how the GTR feels more planted, secure and well balanced than the 911's. it is "effortless speed" personified. simply astonishing, and you have to try it before you sg it off.

3) with its ruthless efficiency, it DOES take the driver out of the equation. this is NOT to say it is not exciting, because it is. in much the same way that a good video game is exciting (i'm not being sarcastic there). but it simply does not have what i would call the "granularity" and "realism" of a proper, "traditional" RWD sports car such as a 911.

4) i would take a GT3 over the GTR almost every single time (the only exception being if i had to run a one or two lap race with my life on the line). in a few years' time, there will be a newer, more sophisticated, and FASTER car than the GTR... maybe the R36 GTR? it would be faster, but it wouldn't be any FUNNER than the GT3.

this isn't brand snobbery on my part. when Nissan announced their targets with the GTR, i laughed and believed Nissan couldn't possibly beat the 911. In terms of outright performance-- even w/o respect to the price-- they have achieved their goal in many many ways. my drive in the GTR has convinced me of this, and i've had to admit i was wrong.

but it has also highlighted what it is i truly find exciting in a car. outright SPEED is part of that... but it isn't the only thing.

i believe the GTR deserves its place in history (a bit like the Honda NSX)... in has moved the game on, and reset the targets for pure speed for the establishment. IMO it will be remembered for how it truly made supercar performance accessible more than any other car before it, and gave Porsche a bloody nose... but it will not be remembered for being one of the best DRIVER'S cars.

Wonderful post.

But what you say about the GTR and the next being faster etc can be related to the GT3s.

Compare the GT3 with a 3.0RS, Carrera CS, 964RS, 993RS etc and the GT3 will almost certainly be faster, but not as involving, granular etc...

My point is that when we run out of arguments abt why it is faster we bring up the emotional aspect and why the Porsche is a better car.

I think this is rationalizing our choice.

I chose to drive a 911, my 911, because of a lot of different reasons. The knowledge that there are faster cars (and faster Porsches that cost less) on the road and/or track did not really come into the equation.

[NoelWatson]

eclou said:

by 03 the NSX was just a tired old maid

Edited by eclou on Monday 17th November 13:24

Is this the same tired old maid that outhandled the 996 in Autocar's 2002 handling test, or was that some other NSX?

[NoelWatson]

forza whites said:

It didn't feel quick at all

0-100 in 11 seconds isn't that bad!

[forza whites]

NoelWatson said:

forza whites said:

It didn't feel quick at all

0-100 in 11 seconds isn't that bad!

0-100 in 9 seconds is better!

Really...just my opinion at the time.....

[flemke]

forza whites said:

eclou said:

by 03 the NSX was just a tired old maid, but the early 90's cars were more the revolutionary cars that Hesperus was referring to. However, the NSX cars were reliable, lightweight (2900lbs) and without major flaws like the GTR's transmission

Edited by eclou on Monday 17th November 13:24

Thats exactly what if felt like....No doubt in early 91...when it was brought out to challenge the 348 it was a better all round car than its Ferrari counterpart....The 993/996/997, 355/360 consigned the NSX to very very few sales....

The NSX was designed in 1990, and had a better chassis than any Porsche up to the CGT of about 13 years later and 4x the price, so it wasn't too shabby an effort.
Commercial success has nothing to do with quality.
I've got nothing against a strong engine, but you can have a great car without a powerful engine and, likewise, there are a lot of powerful engines sitting in crap cars.

[Pesty]

forza whites said:

993/996/997, 355/360 consigned the NSX to very very few sales....

And badge snobery.

and the 964

[Guibo]

Was this the car in question?

[peterpeter]

hesperus said:

i finally got to drive a mate's GTR on some nice fast open roads.

the bottom-lines FOR ME:

1) with my limited talent, i can say i would be faster in the GTR in 90% of real world conditions (both road & track) than i would be in ANY of my Porsches (which includes a 997 GT3 & a Ruf RT12). by "real world" conditions, i am excluding here any longish straight where the Ruf would obviously leave the GTR for dead.

2) its got nothing to do with the GTR's power, acceleration or anything easily measurable by the usual quarter mile, 0-60mph and similar statistics. it has everything to do with how the GTR feels more planted, secure and well balanced than the 911's. it is "effortless speed" personified. simply astonishing, and you have to try it before you sg it off.

3) with its ruthless efficiency, it DOES take the driver out of the equation. this is NOT to say it is not exciting, because it is. in much the same way that a good video game is exciting (i'm not being sarcastic there). but it simply does not have what i would call the "granularity" and "realism" of a proper, "traditional" RWD sports car such as a 911.

4) i would take a GT3 over the GTR almost every single time (the only exception being if i had to run a one or two lap race with my life on the line). in a few years' time, there will be a newer, more sophisticated, and FASTER car than the GTR... maybe the R36 GTR? it would be faster, but it wouldn't be any FUNNER than the GT3.

this isn't brand snobbery on my part. when Nissan announced their targets with the GTR, i laughed and believed Nissan couldn't possibly beat the 911. In terms of outright performance-- even w/o respect to the price-- they have achieved their goal in many many ways. my drive in the GTR has convinced me of this, and i've had to admit i was wrong.

but it has also highlighted what it is i truly find exciting in a car. outright SPEED is part of that... but it isn't the only thing.

i believe the GTR deserves its place in history (a bit like the Honda NSX)... in has moved the game on, and reset the targets for pure speed for the establishment. IMO it will be remembered for how it truly made supercar performance accessible more than any other car before it, and gave Porsche a bloody nose... but it will not be remembered for being one of the best DRIVER'S cars.

good post.

FWIW, I found the GTR far more exciting on the track than on the road section (a mini road circuit) of the academy day. Initially traction was on, then all R modes were put on, then the VDC was turned off totally on the national circuit.

The two latter settings were just so much better on track, both letting the car feel really loose and playful with the throttle, but still very planted at high speed when balanced.
On the limit as track car, it was very close to the GT3 for pure excitement, but I doubt with its weight, its going to be as kind to brakes and tyres as the 3.

Definitely agree with point 2. This is what most cynics cannot appreciate until you have had a go. Corner speeds are just mind blowing. This is where the car makes up its time on timed laps.

I felt that with the aids, on I agree, I did feel disconnected slightly. With all R mode on...its was much much better and very close to the 3, (but better than a turbo or carrera.)

[eclou]

About the 7:29, Chris Harris says no way

[Trommel]

He actually says, "I just don't know".