Used LHD prices for Carrera GT?

[clubsport]

Very well put John, certainly can't disagree... For dreamers such as myself it is great that many of the current owners still use the cars as they were intended...particulalry on track days.
Unfortunately I don't think it will be too many years before rising values make this less viable and more GT2 disappear into little used collections

Good on you chaps for giving many of us no choice, but to pull over to the right on trackdays!

[flemke]

993rsr said:

Paul, I'm not sufficiently in the know on the older models, Bergmeister and Agent Orange are more able to answer that. What I do know is the 993 GT2 was the last of the air cooled 911's built with few restrictions on what can be built, without concern for profit on sales, and as a platform for a race car. For this fact alone it must hold a certain value as the 'last of the line' as it were. Built in very small numbers and with less and less original cars available I could see values rising in the long term.

(Devil's Advocate here)
993 Turbo S: "last of the air cooled 911's"; "built in very small numbers", and, in contrast to the GT2, every last one of them hasn't had the living shit kicked out of it on circuit.
Turbo S can be had for less than half of its original price, and less than half of GT2 price.

The market is what it is. I do think that certain cars acquire a halo, which over time will wax and wane. The halo is usually created by journalists at a car's introduction and then perpetuated by later journalists who have little experience of the cars and so base their writings on the opionions of the original guys. (Yes, C. Harris has a GT2, but he is the rare exception. Furthermore, we should never ignore the vulnerability that every one of us fallible humans has to losing objectivity once our own funds are at risk.)
The fewer cars of a certain model were built, the less overall experience of them the world can have, hence little opportunity for the original myths to be dispelled.
The halo continues, and with few cars existing, the prices get squeezed.

[clubsport]

Flemke, as John says the Gt2 was the platform for a race car....to my mind the Turbo S is a nice car with every extra, but I think racing heritage plays a large part in rising classic car values.....I know you don't want me to mention the r*d cars

Gt2 seems to be trading special at the moment with no sign of let up, I will be genuinely suprised if TT S joins the party.

Not this or next week, but with the newer in some ways softer 997 Gt cars arriving...I think the 996 GT2, particularly the clubsport will be one to watch on the appreciation front. It will be seen as perhaps the last of the unrestrained breed, but lack of direct motorsport involvement will prevent it going stratospheric.

[markbe]

Just a few words on the SLR,for not much,if any cost,Merc' could change this car into an appealling prospect.One,change the brake system.Two,change the engine to the 6.0 bi turbo, complete with 740 bhp.Three add a little more noise insulation.In fact they could do all that and price it at £200k.

M Benz' are you listening????

[Davey S2]

Flemke

I appreciate that most car dealers spend more time talking out of their ar5es when it comes to values but a flip through some of the specialist dealers who advertise in the Sunday Times shows the gap between prices of SLR's and CGT's.

Not that I have driven one but the CGT is supposed to be tricky on the limit whereas the SLR is the ultimate press and point supercar (probably why quite a few footballers have them now)

There are always a few Enzos for sale at varying prices but it is one of the few cars which continues to trade at above its list price. Given the increasing number of them which seem to be being written off the value can only be enhanced as their numbers delcine.

And I was only taking the pi55 about your F1

[993rsr]

Flemke you cleary don't like 993 GT2's as I've observed in previous posts. Strange to compare the 993TT to the 993 GT2 when they are cars for different applications. To summise that every 993GT2 has had the living shit kicked out of it on the circuit is pure conjecture on your part. How much does it erode the value of a Carrera GT if it's been on track, presumably your's has had the living shit kicked out of it round the 'ring?

[imom]

NOW, NOW, LADIES I SEE HANDBAGS AT THE READY

[flemke]

Davey S2 said:

Flemke I appreciate that most car dealers spend more time talking out of their ar5es when it comes to values but a flip through some of the specialist dealers who advertise in the Sunday Times shows the gap between prices of SLR's and CGT's. Not that I have driven one but the CGT is supposed to be tricky on the limit whereas the SLR is the ultimate press and point supercar (probably why quite a few footballers have them now) There are always a few Enzos for sale at varying prices but it is one of the few cars which continues to trade at above its list price. Given the increasing number of them which seem to be being written off the value can only be enhanced as their numbers delcine. And I was only taking the pi55 about your F1

Davey,

Agreed that there is still a gap between SLR and CGT prices. I was alluding to the fact that the gap is narrowing, as the SLR prices have been getting heavy whilst CGT prices have either stopped declining or at least the rate of decline has slowed appreciably. The SLR lead-times are much shorter than they were; why would you pay a premium to get somebody else's spec in a used car when with not that much patience you can have exactly what you want?

Yes, the CGT is very tricky (at least for the likes of me, although Sir Walter himself has said the same) at the limit. I'm not sure how many owners have ever taken their cars to the limit (apart from the geniuses who have taken their cars distinctly across the limit and failed to bring them back). Regardless of whether the car is forgiving at the limit, driving it in any circumstances requires more concentration and involvement than most cars do - although the same can be said for the Italian icon F40. CGT has very responsive steering, a quite revvy engine, a clutch that requires consciousness, and low ground clearance.
From time to time I contemplate selling mine. It's not charismatic and it's not practical. It would be almost useless to drive in places like most of the UK. But if you're driving in a place where proper driving is still feasible, such as certain parts of the Continent, the driving experience is matchless.

Enzo trades above RRP, but below its previous market levels. It's looking to follow a similar market path to F50's. It's just not special enough, although we can rely on the normal Ferrari foaming-at-the-mouth lunacy to support it.

I know that your comment about F1 was in jest. It continues to fascinate me how people will value originality over improvement, almost no matter what. I think it stems from the fact that most people are unable to judge actual improvement, and they therefore default to the known quantity.

Cheers.

[Davey S2]

Flemke

If you could only keep 1 car out of your 959 and CGT which would you choose?

I agree with the modding issue (and i'm not talking about MAX Power style modifications). Most Lotus' are havilly modified with great improvements but come resale time they are completely worthless.

[flemke]

993rsr said:

Flemke you cleary don't like 993 GT2's as I've observed in previous posts. Strange to compare the 993TT to the 993 GT2 when they are cars for different applications. To summise that every 993GT2 has had the living shit kicked out of it on the circuit is pure conjecture on your part. How much does it erode the value of a Carrera GT if it's been on track, presumably your's has had the living shit kicked out of it round the 'ring?

Handbags, indeed.

To say that I clearly don't like the 993 GT2 is your presumption, and it is entirely wrong. The car is superb. What I object to, and what I am confident that I have focused on in the previous posts to which you refer, is the halo effect nonsense. It takes form in words and in prices.
I don't see why a 993 GT2 is worth £110k to whatever (especially the Comfort, for goodness sake). As I said, the market is what it is. That's reality. To my eye it's just not worth it, relative to other stuff.
With respect to words, people can judge for themselves, but I think it's pretty obvious that certain cars within the Porsche world (2.7, 2.8, 959, 993RS, GT2) have the halo effect to an extreme degree. On PH I myself have comprehensively criticised cars of my own which many other people (some of them 'experts') seem to elevate to an exalted level. Perhaps unsuccessfully, I try to be frank and direct about the good and the bad.

I did not compare the GT2 to the TT (or the Turbo S, which was my example). Having started by saying that I was playing DA, I was pointing out that two of the main factors that had been proposed as explaining why GT2s' prices are strong are equal factors with respect to the Turbo S, yet the latter car's price has languished. Ergo, how much have those factors actually contributed to the value of GT2s? Alternatively, do they have the potential to contribute to a car's market price only when in combination of other factors that the GT2 has but the T-S lacks? That's an interesting question - more interesting than whether I do or don't like GT2s.

Obviously I do not know that every single GT2 has had the living shit kicked out of it. This is a forum, not the Royal Courts of Justice. My comment was meant in that context, which I thought was clear.
Do you really think that not many GT2s have been driven hard? For example, 993rsr, if one were to have a peek at the PH Members' section, on the page for member "993rsr" one would see the image of a 993GT2 being driven sideways with smoke pouring off the rear tyres. Ahem...
What I can say is that many of the GT2s that I have seen (not a small number) either looked like they had already had the living shit kicked out of them, or, while I observed, they were in the process of having the living shit kicked out of them.
I have seen many GT2s driven badly, banging across kerbs, bad braking, coarse steering, going into gravel traps, etc. I'm not sure what the point of a 993 GT2 Clubsport is except to be enjoyed on the circuit, so it's to be expected that for most cars a substantial % of total usage will have been on circuit.
With respect to CGT, I know how mine's been driven, because I've been the driver. The contrast between that car's experience and what I've seen done to many a GT2 is reality enough for me.

To repeat (only because pixels are cheap), I have not said and am not saying that I don't like GT2s. It's a very fine car but, like anything, else, it deserves to be put in perspective rather than on a pedestal.




>> Edited by flemke on Friday 3rd March 15:20

[flemke]

Davey S2 said:

If you could only keep 1 car out of your 959 and CGT which would you choose?

No idea. The CGT is hugely better in so many ways but currently and perhaps for ever lacking in historical interest and charisma.
They have both created headaches as well.

Which do you prefer?

[Joe911]

clubsport said:

Flemke, as John says the Gt2 was the platform for a race car

Is that true (not saying it isn't, but that's not what I understand)?

I understood that the GT3-Cup chassis (as run in the various Carrera Cup series around the world) is basically a road car - and that the engine is basically an improved road car engine.

And the GT3-RS and RSR race cars (not road cars - and I'm talking more 996 here, maybe the 993 was different) are really bespoke race cars from the ground up. If you look at a race 996 RS/RSR you'll see a 911 skin on a bespoke package - if you look at a 996-GT3-Cup you'll see a stripped out road car.

Happy to be corrected on this.


>> Edited by Joe911 on Friday 3rd March 14:43

[flemke]

clubsport said:

Flemke, as John says the Gt2 was the platform for a race car....to my mind the Turbo S is a nice car with every extra, but I think racing heritage plays a large part in rising classic car values.....I know you don't want me to mention the r*d cars Gt2 seems to be trading special at the moment with no sign of let up, I will be genuinely suprised if TT S joins the party. Not this or next week, but with the newer in some ways softer 997 Gt cars arriving...I think the 996 GT2, particularly the clubsport will be one to watch on the appreciation front. It will be seen as perhaps the last of the unrestrained breed, but lack of direct motorsport involvement will prevent it going stratospheric.

I think you're spot-on there.
The race car/road car intersection is always good for an extra 50% of hype.

Of course the 996 GT2 didn't have much of a racing connection. At the same time, the GT3 has a legitimate one, although I don't see that currently boosting the value of GT3s, not even the RSs.

Agreed that T-S prices are not on the verge of doing an about-face and competing with GT2s', not in my lifetime. They do seem to have good support at £50k or so, but that's probably because a 997TT, like the 996TT, will go for 85 or whatever and the T-S is nicer in some ways.

[993rsr]

Thanks for your comments Flemke, it’s made your view of the 993GT2 transparent for me.

There are four members of this forum myself included who are fortunate enough to answer why 993 GT2’s are such special cars and demand their current market value. I would have thought that was a reasonable ‘straw pole’ of opinion, even if three of the four are only Comfort versions.

I can understand how you may question the current prices 993 GT2’s are demanding, and as you have quite correctly observed in a previous post they are nothing more than a 993 RS with two turbos. It may not seem worth it to you compared to other stuff; however there are four people on this forum who would disagree based on their ownership experience.

With regard to comparing a GT2 to a TT (or turbo S which was your example, I apologise for this omission) you have inextricably linked and compared the two merely by including them in the same sentence and commenting on their respective values and questioning the void between them.

I’m sorry I have taken your comments regarding the shit kicked GT2’s out of context, and yes I fully understand that this is a forum and not the Royal Courts of Justice. It wasn’t clear and that was why I commented about it. Again the purpose of forums is for precisely this type of dialogue.

I’m also not quite sure what bad braking and coarse steering have to do with having the living shit kicked out of a car, but if they do I am ‘guilty as charged’ – sorry Forum not Court’s of Justice.

Thanks for repeating and making clear (and I like the pixels are cheap) that you have not said you don’t like 993GT2’s, I’ll make sure I digest the content of your posts more carefully in future.

[clubsport]

Joe911 said:

clubsport said: Flemke, as John says the Gt2 was the platform for a race car Is that true (not saying it isn't, but that's not what I understand)? I understood that the GT3-Cup chassis (as run in the various Carrera Cup series around the world) is basically a road car - and that the engine is basically an improved road car engine. And the GT3-RS and RSR race cars (not road cars - and I'm talking more 996 here, maybe the 993 was different) are really bespoke race cars from the ground up. If you look at a race 996 RS/RSR you'll see a 911 skin on a bespoke package - if you look at a 996-GT3-Cup you'll see a stripped out road car. Happy to be corrected on this. Joe, we were discussing the 993 Gt2 in that context......later went on to mention no direct motorsport connection of 996 Gt2......993 RS/GT2 had additional factory welding on shells. >> Edited by Joe911 on Friday 3rd March 14:43

[flemke]

993rsr said:

I’m also not quite sure what bad braking and coarse steering have to do with having the living shit kicked out of a car, but if they do I am ‘guilty as charged’ – sorry Forum not Court’s of Justice. Thanks for repeating and making clear (and I like the pixels are cheap) that you have not said you don’t like 993GT2’s, I’ll make sure I digest the content of your posts more carefully in future.

John,

Thanks for the helpful and conciliatory reply.
What I meant about the bad braking and coarse steering is
- bad braking generates a lot of unnecessary heat, which is unkind to calipers, uprights, hubs, wheels, etc.
- coarse steering in itself hurts nothing except the tyres. Because coarse steering is such an obvious behaviour, it suggests to me that the driver is mechanically unsympathetic and generally more abusive than needs be with regard to the more subtle parts of driving.

If I came upon a Clubsport version which I really believed was in primo condition I might well go for it. With these cars, unfortunately, you just cannot be sure. Fitting a new speedo does not exactly require the expertise of a nuclear engineer.

BTW, I edited my earlier reply after I took a look at your Member's Page. You must admit, if we WERE in the R C of J, my brief would be using the picture of (what I presume is) your GT2 as Exhibit A.

[993rsr]

Check the picture again Flemke.

[flemke]

993rsr said:

Check the picture again Flemke.

Okay, what am I missing?

[willibetz]

flemke said:

- bad braking generates a lot of unnecessary heat, which is unkind to calipers, uprights, hubs, wheels, etc.

I can't really get my head round what constitutes bad braking (assuming you're not talking about glazing the pads, or not cooling the brakes). Won't using the brakes to slow from speed x to speed y always generate the same energy, regardless of technique? So how do you avoid bad braking, and do good braking instead?

With apologies for being a bit off-topic...

[993rsr]

Attempt at joke, did'nt work.