Porsche tuning
Discussion
Gazboy said:
They don't seem to mention on their website anywhere if you have to pay sales tax, import duty & vat- and no mention of carriage??? I assume you do pay the vat @ ID, but are you exempt from sales tax as you are exporting the kit overseas?
Yes import duty will have to be paid, but they will give a receipt for any sensible amount, so shouldn't be too bad.
I believe that carriage will be around $200.
At the end of the day I guess it all adds up, and the total price is not an insignicant
amount.
On the other hand.....the depreciation on a good 930 turbo is negligible, and the cost of the kit probably only equates to a years depreciation on a newer Porsche. (That is how i talked myself into it anyhow....lol)
Regarding boost pressures, most people go the cheaper route and add a 1.0 bar boost spring. I don't think it is recommended to go higher than 1.0 bar. Certainly not for long periods of time anyway.
Included in the kit that i mentioned earler, is an electronic boost controller. This gives you the option to programme in various boost levels.
I like the idea of being able to keep boost at the std 0.8 bar for normal driving, and having the option to up the boost with the press of a button when occasion demands :>
Cheers.
Dave
Dave.
According to Wikipedia the 4speed 930 is faster than the later 5speed, in acceleration and top speed, so you may want to factor that in too. I'd be interested in confirmation of that - anyone?
I think (but am not sure) that a 1.0 bar spring gives an extra 10% (330bhp) and is fairly subtle looking for insurance purposes.
I think (but am not sure) that a 1.0 bar spring gives an extra 10% (330bhp) and is fairly subtle looking for insurance purposes.
Seany88 said:
scruffy101 said:
Seany88 said:
Globulator said:
Seany88 said:
Can a non-turbo be converted to a turbo? Any issues with bodywork cooling etc?
Yes, in that anything can be converted to anything with enough time and money. No in that you may not want to waste time and money - the conversion would cost a lot more than just buying a turbo car in the first place, and would not be worth anything afterwards. Porsche changed many parts going from the Turbo to the Carrera, some of the most important being the brakes and gearbox.. not to mention the tail and engine, down to details like dials, wiring loom, injection system etc.
The CIS injection system is the usual reason for not going overboard on the power hikes, but there are a few articles around if you search for them about that use the existing CIS and getting more power. In addition the new MegaSquirt kits may allow you to install a full new injection system with more confidence than in the past, although the CIS is fairly reliable and economical.
I'd try buying one, having the 1bar spring done and a bigger intercooler fitted before you spend to much - the stock 930 goes like a rocket anyway and is a very enjoyable car without the modern thinking that needs huge amounts of power to counteract the natural dullness and blandness of modern cars (boxster excepted).
So basically buy the 3.2 carrera first, and then when i've got the money trade for the turbo. It sounds obvious really, its just that I know I get attached to cars and so I hate the whole buying/selling process...wish I could keep all the cars i've ever owned
And i'm sure 300bhp will be plenty fast for a good while, but there will always come a time when you want more! So a bit of prep work in advance can't do any harm!
And djhep6 make sure to keep us updated with the quality of the kit and how good it is, sounds like it'll be a monster!
That's a massive increase just from a chip, or did you have extra mods?
Gazboy said:
djhep6 said:
Regarding boost pressures, most people go the cheaper route and add a 1.0 bar boost spring. I don't think it is recommended to go higher than 1.0 bar. Certainly not for long periods of time anyway.
Included in the kit that i mentioned earler, is an electronic boost controller. This gives you the option to programme in various boost levels.
I like the idea of being able to keep boost at the std 0.8 bar for normal driving, and having the option to up the boost with the press of a button when occasion demands :>
Cheers.
Dave
Dave.
Insead of swapping the spring, I'd run a EBC (not sure I'd go with £450's worth of HKS when £250 of Blitz would do the same thing) with the base at 0.8bar, and a switchable higher boost at 1.0bar. Does the 1.0bar spring prevent boost spikes at all?
I haven't worked out the cost, but it's increasing sounding like those kits swap the $ for a £ sign- if you see what I mean. Would it not be cheaper to source individual components over here, saving the $200 shipping and 10% sales tax?
I still think it's probably cheaper to buy from the States, even taking into account the taxes and shipping.
I suppose i could have sourced individual components, but the fact that the kit has been thoroughly developed and tested as a package gives me a bit of peace of mind that it will work well. Also the company supplying will provide support with any problems during installation/setup.
Does anyone know if it is possible to buy a similar kit in UK?.
Getting back to Seany88's original post....If you want more info on pre 89 Porsches visit "Impactbumpers.com".
The guys there really know their stuff and will give you some really good advice on what to look out for.
Cheers.
Dave.
930 turbo tuning for beginners:
1. Boost spring or controller, 1.0bar safe limit on stock engine. 320hp
2. Airbox. Definitely nothing to lose on this one, the stock airbox is restrictive and holds back the air through the afm. 330hp
3. Headers (heat exchangers to you and me). Junk the complicated & long Porsche system and fit headers which flow directly from the heads to the turbo. Spools up 700rpm earlier, more torque & power everywhere. 360hp
4. K27 turbo. Bin the old 3LDZ and fit the quicker spool K27, direct fit with intake pipe adapter. 375hp
5. Intercooler. You can do a lot worse than fit a turbo 2 unit although it does interfere with the aircon rad. Won't make a lot more power but will control heat, especially in the summer. 385hp.
6. 964 Cams. More lift, more duration, better top end, good for most 930 engines up to 500hp and work with stock springs & followers. 400hp/400lbft with all the above.
At this point the engine is at the limit of fuel flow from the stock K-Jet, so anything you now do will require either K-Jet mods (which are hit-and-miss) or add a 7th injector with some sort of electronic controller. This is the direction we recommend:
7. 7th injector
8. 9m Ballrace turbo. Even faster spoolup, more torque & more top end power with reduced back pressure. 480hp, 440lbft, total cost for 1-8 (without K27) is around £10k+VAT fitted.
Now it gets expensive, because if you want more power still you will have to junk the K-Jet and go for engine management, our preference would be Motec.
3.2 Carrera tuning:
1. Make sure engine is perfect, top end rebuild as necessary.
2. Remap standard DME. 250hp
3. Fit 3.6 engine. 300hp
4. Fit Motec to 3.6 engine. 325-335hp
4. Sell car and buy a 930. See above.
Juat about sums it up nicely, methinks.
1. Boost spring or controller, 1.0bar safe limit on stock engine. 320hp
2. Airbox. Definitely nothing to lose on this one, the stock airbox is restrictive and holds back the air through the afm. 330hp
3. Headers (heat exchangers to you and me). Junk the complicated & long Porsche system and fit headers which flow directly from the heads to the turbo. Spools up 700rpm earlier, more torque & power everywhere. 360hp
4. K27 turbo. Bin the old 3LDZ and fit the quicker spool K27, direct fit with intake pipe adapter. 375hp
5. Intercooler. You can do a lot worse than fit a turbo 2 unit although it does interfere with the aircon rad. Won't make a lot more power but will control heat, especially in the summer. 385hp.
6. 964 Cams. More lift, more duration, better top end, good for most 930 engines up to 500hp and work with stock springs & followers. 400hp/400lbft with all the above.
At this point the engine is at the limit of fuel flow from the stock K-Jet, so anything you now do will require either K-Jet mods (which are hit-and-miss) or add a 7th injector with some sort of electronic controller. This is the direction we recommend:
7. 7th injector
8. 9m Ballrace turbo. Even faster spoolup, more torque & more top end power with reduced back pressure. 480hp, 440lbft, total cost for 1-8 (without K27) is around £10k+VAT fitted.
Now it gets expensive, because if you want more power still you will have to junk the K-Jet and go for engine management, our preference would be Motec.
3.2 Carrera tuning:
1. Make sure engine is perfect, top end rebuild as necessary.
2. Remap standard DME. 250hp
3. Fit 3.6 engine. 300hp
4. Fit Motec to 3.6 engine. 325-335hp
4. Sell car and buy a 930. See above.
Juat about sums it up nicely, methinks.
Gazboy said:
djhep6 said:
Regarding boost pressures, most people go the cheaper route and add a 1.0 bar boost spring. I don't think it is recommended to go higher than 1.0 bar. Certainly not for long periods of time anyway.
Included in the kit that i mentioned earler, is an electronic boost controller. This gives you the option to programme in various boost levels.
I like the idea of being able to keep boost at the std 0.8 bar for normal driving, and having the option to up the boost with the press of a button when occasion demands :>
Cheers.
Dave
Dave.
Insead of swapping the spring, I'd run a EBC (not sure I'd go with £450's worth of HKS when £250 of Blitz would do the same thing) with the base at 0.8bar, and a switchable higher boost at 1.0bar. Does the 1.0bar spring prevent boost spikes at all?
I haven't worked out the cost, but it's increasing sounding like those kits swap the $ for a £ sign- if you see what I mean. Would it not be cheaper to source individual components over here, saving the $200 shipping and 10% sales tax?
EBCs are quite a common mod for Jap cars, it would be an ideal option just doesn't quite have the same ring as the 997 'overboost option' though
Gaz you seem to have a point, as it seems that the only parts that aren't generic are the custom 'free flow headers' and the special turbo?
scruffy101 said:
Seany88 said:
scruffy101 said:
i got my carrera chpped to 352 bhp,and had it tested at niemeister ,they do it for about £500.
That's a massive increase just from a chip, or did you have extra mods?
Sure did! Is the difference noticable? (read worthwhile)
Yep great advice and info there ninemeister.
When you say headers/heat exchangers do you mean the exhaust manifold? And what boost pressure do you run to achieve 480bhp?
Also, regarding the 3.2 carrera how much is a top end rebuild? Is the bottom end generally solid and therefore not an issue? And also how much is a 3.6 engine?
You can email me the prices if you like.
When you say headers/heat exchangers do you mean the exhaust manifold? And what boost pressure do you run to achieve 480bhp?
Also, regarding the 3.2 carrera how much is a top end rebuild? Is the bottom end generally solid and therefore not an issue? And also how much is a 3.6 engine?
You can email me the prices if you like.jbl930 said:
Colin I didn't realise the stock airbox was that restrictive, which one would you suggest as a replacement?
We were dubious about this at first, so we tested our version against the stock airbox back to back on the same car, same dyno, same day. Our version made around 10-15hp more in the mid range and around 7hp more at the top end. As I said, for around £300 it is money well spent.
As a follow up to this comment we have recently been working on a 1990 Ruf BTR, sorting out numerous running/build faults and at the same time fitting headers and a ballrace. In typical style Ruf adapted the stock airbox to fit the Motronic equipped BTR with a complicated machined intake horn and a pipe going down to the turbo. On test with the new exhaust and turbo the engine struggled to make more than 430hp, so as a test we disconnected the airbox and allowed the engine to breathe straight from the turbo intake pipe - it then made 450hp. After fabricating our own long tube airbox with a round K&N style filter on the end, the new intake managed to feed the turbo at a higher velocity and made 460+hp at the same boost.
Seany88 said:
Yep great advice and info there ninemeister.
When you say headers/heat exchangers do you mean the exhaust manifold? And what boost pressure do you run to achieve 480bhp?
Also, regarding the 3.2 carrera how much is a top end rebuild? Is the bottom end generally solid and therefore not an issue? And also how much is a 3.6 engine? You can email me the prices if you like.
When you say headers/heat exchangers do you mean the exhaust manifold? And what boost pressure do you run to achieve 480bhp?
Also, regarding the 3.2 carrera how much is a top end rebuild? Is the bottom end generally solid and therefore not an issue? And also how much is a 3.6 engine?
You can email me the prices if you like.You're welcome, my way of "giving it back" to a well run forum that it fun to be around.
Yes, headers are a US term for exhaust manifolds, heat exchangers are simply exhaust manifolds surrounded by a casing that warms up air to feed the heating system.
The 480hp we see from our full-on package is at 1.0bar, the extra power mainly coming from the improved efficiency of the ballrace turbo at the top of the rev range which holds onto the torque for much longer than any other package that we have seen. Naturally to make this power you have to support it with a lot more fuel, so the 7th injector supplies over 100hp worth of V-Power down through the throttle body.
Rebuild costs on a 3.2 vary engine to engine, generally yes the bottom end is ok. Best case which is typical for a genuine 75-100,000 mile engine would be around £3k+VAT if it simply needed re-ringing and a set of valve guides - worst case and a set of new/refurbished barrels (& pistons) would be required along with a set of big end & main bearings for double the cost of above.
We often get asked about tuning the 3.2 and always offer the same answers. Lets say you are looking for around 300hp, what would this cost? The 3.2 Motronic DME & fuel system is a limitation, so Motec is probably the obvious choice but would require a full wiring loom, flywheel, sensors, etc. at a cost of at least £5k installed. Add in a good set of equal length headers (£2k) and the engine would make around 270hp and I know because my 3.2 Carrera had this combination. Going to 3.5 (barrels, pistons, rebuild, cams) would take the engine to 280-285hp, but to push 300hp the next step would be to fit a 3.6 964 intake manifold which would then give you 305hp. Total cost of 3.5 engine, Motec, intake and exhaust would be around £15k+VAT.
Typically a 993 or late 964 3.6 engine would cost around £5k, you need around £1k of parts + £2.5k labour to fit it and then £500 to remap it. Once you sell the old 3.2 engine for anything up to £2k the cost of the conversion is about £7k+VAT, i.e. half the cost of the 3.5 engine......
Seany88 said:
scruffy101 said:
Seany88 said:
scruffy101 said:
i got my carrera chpped to 352 bhp,and had it tested at niemeister ,they do it for about £500.
That's a massive increase just from a chip, or did you have extra mods?
Sure did! Is the difference noticable? (read worthwhile)
ninemeister said:
jbl930 said:
Colin I didn't realise the stock airbox was that restrictive, which one would you suggest as a replacement?
We were dubious about this at first, so we tested our version against the stock airbox back to back on the same car, same dyno, same day. Our version made around 10-15hp more in the mid range and around 7hp more at the top end. As I said, for around £300 it is money well spent.
As a follow up to this comment we have recently been working on a 1990 Ruf BTR, sorting out numerous running/build faults and at the same time fitting headers and a ballrace. In typical style Ruf adapted the stock airbox to fit the Motronic equipped BTR with a complicated machined intake horn and a pipe going down to the turbo. On test with the new exhaust and turbo the engine struggled to make more than 430hp, so as a test we disconnected the airbox and allowed the engine to breathe straight from the turbo intake pipe - it then made 450hp. After fabricating our own long tube airbox with a round K&N style filter on the end, the new intake managed to feed the turbo at a higher velocity and made 460+hp at the same boost.
Do you think it would work even better with an after market muffler/back box too? I'm just asking as my car needs to come back up to you anyway as it's down on power again and thought it would make it worth while to add these mods while it's there.
jbl930 said:
ninemeister said:
jbl930 said:
Colin I didn't realise the stock airbox was that restrictive, which one would you suggest as a replacement?
We were dubious about this at first, so we tested our version against the stock airbox back to back on the same car, same dyno, same day. Our version made around 10-15hp more in the mid range and around 7hp more at the top end. As I said, for around £300 it is money well spent.
As a follow up to this comment we have recently been working on a 1990 Ruf BTR, sorting out numerous running/build faults and at the same time fitting headers and a ballrace. In typical style Ruf adapted the stock airbox to fit the Motronic equipped BTR with a complicated machined intake horn and a pipe going down to the turbo. On test with the new exhaust and turbo the engine struggled to make more than 430hp, so as a test we disconnected the airbox and allowed the engine to breathe straight from the turbo intake pipe - it then made 450hp. After fabricating our own long tube airbox with a round K&N style filter on the end, the new intake managed to feed the turbo at a higher velocity and made 460+hp at the same boost.
Do you think it would work even better with an after market muffler/back box too? I'm just asking as my car needs to come back up to you anyway as it's down on power again and thought it would make it worth while to add these mods while it's there.
What size is the standard pipework? IIRC generally the bigger the diameter the quicker the spool up and increased free-flow of exhaust gases therefore potential increase in power?
adamt said:
Gazboy said:
What about supercharging?
Isn't the base car for AdamT's YellowBird a narrow-body Carrera???
Isn't the base car for AdamT's YellowBird a narrow-body Carrera???
Spot on Gaz, the Yellowbird is based on the Carrera 3,2
all the best
adam
Adam do you know what exactly the CTR has in common with the 3.2 carrera? Is the suspension different? I've read that the engine the same as the 930 turbo just TT'd is this true? Can anyone guess what the top speed would have been if the turbo-body had been used?
Also...so if you go to town via the ballrace turbo etc, would it be as quick if not quicker than a CTR?
Seany88 said:
adamt said:
Gazboy said:
What about supercharging?
Isn't the base car for AdamT's YellowBird a narrow-body Carrera???
Isn't the base car for AdamT's YellowBird a narrow-body Carrera???
Spot on Gaz, the Yellowbird is based on the Carrera 3,2
all the best
adam
Adam do you know what exactly the CTR has in common with the 3.2 carrera? Is the suspension different? I've read that the engine the same as the 930 turbo just TT'd is this true? Can anyone guess what the top speed would have been if the turbo-body had been used?
Also...so if you go to town via the ballrace turbo etc, would it be as quick if not quicker than a CTR?
Hi buddy,
The 3,2 carrera was only used as it was a much narrower basis than the Turbo with the wide hips.
The engine is nothing like the engine in a 930 turbo
With a turbo body i would guess the top speed would have decreased by 3 or 4 mph (thats purely guess work on my behalf and not scientific
) Concerning ballrace turbos, it would be interesting for sure, but i doubt it would be anywhere near the CTR
all the best
adam
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