Chris Harris' 997.1 GT3 with exe-tc Suspension and Akrapovic
Discussion
Exe-TC is top quality stuff. Citroen has used it on every one of Sebastian Loebs cars to win his WRC titles.
They were also used by Prodrive on their WRC Imprezas.
IIIRC Graham (the genius behind Exe-TC) has started to diversify into circuit (rather than rally) dampers more recently.
Costs start at around the £5K mark for GT3 kit IIRC.
For the same money (or a smidge more) you could go with these :
http://www.easier.com/81429-ohlins-porsche-997-gt3...
Ohlins are about as good as it gets in the world of dampers.
They were also used by Prodrive on their WRC Imprezas.
IIIRC Graham (the genius behind Exe-TC) has started to diversify into circuit (rather than rally) dampers more recently.
Costs start at around the £5K mark for GT3 kit IIRC.
For the same money (or a smidge more) you could go with these :
http://www.easier.com/81429-ohlins-porsche-997-gt3...
Ohlins are about as good as it gets in the world of dampers.
Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 3rd May 19:33
monthefish said:
What's your connection with Porsche/the industry/Chris Harris?
i.e. I'm sure he doesn't pick random strangers and offer to lend them his on personal car for a few days?!
As Davey said, when Chris, Richard and Jethro were starting out with Drivers Republic I pestered them into letting me tag along to what was supposed to be a Gen2 Cayman v 370Z shootout shoot. I was thinking of changing to a Gen2 Cayman at the time.i.e. I'm sure he doesn't pick random strangers and offer to lend them his on personal car for a few days?!
Chris had a drive of my car (it was standard at the time) and was amazed at what I was bid on it as a trade against a Gen2 and how good it still felt that he included it in the shootout. Chris said at the time that at some time in the future he would make it up to me and pay back the debt of thanks for using my motor in a story.
Last month I sold my Cayman in order preparation for starting to look for a 997.1 GT3 Chris heard about this and asked if I wanted to borrow his GT3 to try it out for a few days and return the favor from 2 years ago. And I accepted.
I don't have anything to do with the industry. I design paintball guns for a living. And as said before, I've only ever met Chris twice in person previous to this weekend.
I think exe-tc have something like 7 WRC titles under their belt, and they recently decided to move into circuit and road dampers. Their GT3 experience comes from running VLN cars for the last couple of years. With Chris's connection he wanted to see if he could build a system to his perfect specification. I think he's very happy with what he has so far. And I was very impressed.
As for the comparison to the stock PASM. Well I never had that on my Cayman but I did fit Bilstein PSS9's so that I could have a more compliant ride for the road and then stiffen it up for the track. I liked the simplicity of it and it was quick and easy to swap between settings. I honestly would not feel comfortable adjusting a 3-way system, but just going from 4 clicks to 9 clicks is so simple that anyone can do it. So that is what I liked about the exe-tc system. It had a 1-way adjuster and you just count the number of clicks on one knob on each damper and off you go. It is exactly what I would want in a road/track car. And in its "road" set-up I didn't ever feel like it needed to be stiffer or firmer. It felt perfectly judged all of the time. It rode really well and yet gripped and changed direction when it needed to, with bags of feedback. I don't know how much of that is due to the hard mounting and how much to the dampers, but whatever it was, it worked. I commented to Chris on the phone after I had driven it for a bit that it didn't feel like any 911 that I have driven before in that you couldn't really feel the weight out over the back. it felt much more mid-engined than rear. And jumping back into my old Cayman on the way home yesterday I actually thought that that felt like it carried more weight over the back axel than the GT3 I had just got out of. Again, the suspension must have a lot to do with that, but then so must the loss of the weight out of the exhaust. How much to attribute to each, I have no idea.
Sorry for the ramble.
Here is a pic of the single adjuster on the top of the front damper. I think it has 50 clicks on this particular version.
The car was pretty bloody filthy when I picked it up.
So I gave it a bath before I returned it. Still got back to him covered in a film of the finest Welsh insects
Edited by jackwood on Wednesday 4th May 00:00
Good write up Jack.
From my perspective Porsche did a fantastic job of engineering "the 911ness" out of the Gen 1 997 GT3 anyway.
Whilst PASM is a wonderful innovation, it's only as good as the "basic" damper it's built around. As we know all too well, Porsche is no longer about engineering excellence, it's now all about volume and the bottom line, nothing wrong with that as a business plan, but it does mean that the majority of components fitted to a modern Porsche are very much built down to a price and hence are compromised when it comes to their quality.
Regrettably those constraints also apply to dampers, and whilst the dampers fitted to the GT3 are pretty reasonable, they'll never be able to get close to the quality of damping that a top notch bespoke damper such as Ohlins, Exe-TC, Moton, JRZ etc can.
I'm currently in the process of fitting different dampers to my GT2 and from previous experience know that the results can be as impressive as those you've experienced with the 997 GT3 !
I think you'd find that your Cayman could be improved with a set of high end dampers to a similar degree, but the problem then becomes one of coming to terms with spending large sums of money to upgrading a depreciating asset !
From my perspective Porsche did a fantastic job of engineering "the 911ness" out of the Gen 1 997 GT3 anyway.
Whilst PASM is a wonderful innovation, it's only as good as the "basic" damper it's built around. As we know all too well, Porsche is no longer about engineering excellence, it's now all about volume and the bottom line, nothing wrong with that as a business plan, but it does mean that the majority of components fitted to a modern Porsche are very much built down to a price and hence are compromised when it comes to their quality.
Regrettably those constraints also apply to dampers, and whilst the dampers fitted to the GT3 are pretty reasonable, they'll never be able to get close to the quality of damping that a top notch bespoke damper such as Ohlins, Exe-TC, Moton, JRZ etc can.
I'm currently in the process of fitting different dampers to my GT2 and from previous experience know that the results can be as impressive as those you've experienced with the 997 GT3 !
I think you'd find that your Cayman could be improved with a set of high end dampers to a similar degree, but the problem then becomes one of coming to terms with spending large sums of money to upgrading a depreciating asset !
I've not taken the opportunity to test anything later than the Gen 1 997 GT3 and GT3 RS.
I'd imagine the "911ness" is still there, but from my experience of the Gen 1 cars, you'd have to be driving at unacceptable speeds on the public road to experience it.
I drove my Gen 1 GT3 across the Cotswolds and Wales at what I'll term "making considerable progress" speeds and found it so composed that it all began to seem a bit like a "computer game". Fast yes, but ultimately the car felt a bit too sanitized and didn't require any real management of it's weight in the way that its predecessor (996 GT3/2) did.
I'd imagine the "911ness" is still there, but from my experience of the Gen 1 cars, you'd have to be driving at unacceptable speeds on the public road to experience it.
I drove my Gen 1 GT3 across the Cotswolds and Wales at what I'll term "making considerable progress" speeds and found it so composed that it all began to seem a bit like a "computer game". Fast yes, but ultimately the car felt a bit too sanitized and didn't require any real management of it's weight in the way that its predecessor (996 GT3/2) did.
Slippydiff, exactly why I have sold my Cayman to my best friend (he is more than happy with what he has at the price he paid!! PSS9's, K-Mac Camber/Caster mono-ball top mounts, WEVO SS Gearbox mounts, Quaife diff, new condensers, grills, gearchange cables, gearlever mech, Mich Pilot Super Sports, 2 sets of wheels, new cats, etc etc). On a circa £17k car investing £3-4k in a bespoke suspension set-up is simply foolish. But I am going into GT3 ownership with eyes open and ready to change whatever is needed early on rather than waiting and doing it later on in its life like I did with the Cayman. I kept the Cayman for 5 1/2 years and can see me doing the same with a GT3, so an early investment of such a scale would be a worthwhile "smile per pound" investment to me, I think.
I am not sure that you can dial out "some" of the 911-ness from a 911. After all the engine is in the right place for maximum traction and drive out of a corner regardless of what you do to the suspension. If you can set the car up to change direction better, feel more balanced and benign at the limit, and elminate the light nose and tendancy for understeer, then that just adds to the package rather than nullify any of it. That is just my opinion. The best of both worlds can't be a bad thing, can it?
I am not sure that you can dial out "some" of the 911-ness from a 911. After all the engine is in the right place for maximum traction and drive out of a corner regardless of what you do to the suspension. If you can set the car up to change direction better, feel more balanced and benign at the limit, and elminate the light nose and tendancy for understeer, then that just adds to the package rather than nullify any of it. That is just my opinion. The best of both worlds can't be a bad thing, can it?
Callughan said:
s
t! You've just reminded me about the footage I need to upload! Thanks!jackwood said:
I am not sure that you can dial out "some" of the 911-ness from a 911. After all the engine is in the right place for maximum traction and drive out of a corner regardless of what you do to the suspension. If you can set the car up to change direction better, feel more balanced and benign at the limit, and elminate the light nose and tendancy for understeer, then that just adds to the package rather than nullify any of it. That is just my opinion. The best of both worlds can't be a bad thing, can it?
Agreed, you can't change the laws of physics, a 911 is still akin to driving a hammer with the head at the back. But what you can do with clever engineering (something the chassis engineers at Porsche have always been very adept at) is raise the threshold at which the tail starts to wag the dog.Thus the early cars with skinny tyres and soft suspension (and large camber angle changes) were notoriously lively in their handling, but as the chassis engineers wised up to the cars shortcomings the tyres became wider, which in turn meant the cars became stiffer (as did the tyres sidewalls) to keep the tyres contact patch more consistent with the tarmac, these grippier tyres in turn meant stiffer bushings and in turn more NVH, 0and the 964 was probably the worst compromise from a NVH/handling perspective}
With the advent of the 993 there was a realization that more compliance was required to reduce NVH BUT without losing the basic handling characteristics and feedback that the 911 had become renowed for.
The 996 took this concept a step further, hence when the engineers came to develop the Mk 1 GT3 they faced the problem of producing a sharp handling car and retaining a degree of refinement, not easy !
The engineers at Stuttgart realised that they'd reached the end of the road when they started developing the 997 GT3. In short they couldn't get the everyday ride refinement/NVH levels AND the track handling characteristics they needed from a conventional damper.
All these clever engineering solutions have raised the threshold at which the inherent "imbalance" of the 911
chassis can be felt. Thus a 997 GT3 driven and cornered hard at 120mph will feel very benign compared to the equivalent 911 SC, all the moreso if a rapid direction change is called for !
I freely admit the above is progress (and in the process makes the car easier to drive for the masses) but it also makes accessing that unique "911ness" on the road more difficult.
To that end I've no doubt that driving a Gen 2 997 GT3 RS on the road is an awesome experience, but as I mentioned previously, I'd imagine the "911ness" has all but been engineered out unless you're prepared to drive at speeds which are deemed unacceptable by most in this day and age.
Slippydiff said:
I've not taken the opportunity to test anything later than the Gen 1 997 GT3 and GT3 RS.
I'd imagine the "911ness" is still there, but from my experience of the Gen 1 cars, you'd have to be driving at unacceptable speeds on the public road to experience it.
I drove my Gen 1 GT3 across the Cotswolds and Wales at what I'll term "making considerable progress" speeds and found it so composed that it all began to seem a bit like a "computer game". Fast yes, but ultimately the car felt a bit too sanitized and didn't require any real management of it's weight in the way that its predecessor (996 GT3/2) did.
agreed, nice post slippyI'd imagine the "911ness" is still there, but from my experience of the Gen 1 cars, you'd have to be driving at unacceptable speeds on the public road to experience it.
I drove my Gen 1 GT3 across the Cotswolds and Wales at what I'll term "making considerable progress" speeds and found it so composed that it all began to seem a bit like a "computer game". Fast yes, but ultimately the car felt a bit too sanitized and didn't require any real management of it's weight in the way that its predecessor (996 GT3/2) did.
amazing how different the GT2 is as well between 996 and 997
Vid is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJWdbB6zAbU
Think the Akropovic was a bit too much for the little camera....
Think the Akropovic was a bit too much for the little camera....
Slippydiff, great post and I don't disagree with a word of it. I suppose I have been tainted by the Cayman curse in having a rapid, benign car and wanting to move up to a more rapid car that doesn't want to kill me. I want an engaging, well engineered, dynamically competent car that is fun and usable in a wide range of conditions and circumstances. I am not particularly after a "911-esque" car. I don't really want something that is "hard" to drive or master. I want something fun, rapid, durable and relatively cheap to run. For me there is little else to move/aspire to other than a GT3. I have never yearned to experience the 911ness of a 911 and if the GT3 contained all its attributes in a front, mid or rear drive configuation would not make a jot of difference to me.
I hope that makes sense.
I hope that makes sense.
Glad you had a blast in your next car Jack... sounded like the perfect weekend!
As you know my GT3 came to me wearing a full titanium system and would not get on any track in the land which i realised to my cost, but it sounded phenomenal!!
I now run a halfway solution, titanium manifolds/headers (good torque gains) standard silencers & cats (nice & quiet) with titanium tips... This equates to weight loss, power gain & is very track friendly, but still sounds the business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbhSoBwDohM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HxnorefaqI
As you know my GT3 came to me wearing a full titanium system and would not get on any track in the land which i realised to my cost, but it sounded phenomenal!!
I now run a halfway solution, titanium manifolds/headers (good torque gains) standard silencers & cats (nice & quiet) with titanium tips... This equates to weight loss, power gain & is very track friendly, but still sounds the business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbhSoBwDohM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HxnorefaqI
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