Journalist sued after 917 engine explodes

[freedman]

heebeegeetee said:

I too am surprised to hear about the gear change issues of the 917, but nevertheless it's well documented and it cost them engines and races at the time.

Issues talked about by who exactly?

It simply isnt true that gearchange issue were a major cause of failure in the 917

[JammyD]

freedman said:

Issues talked about by who exactly?

It simply isnt true that gearchange issue were a major cause of failure in the 917

I can give you a quote by Brian Redman.....
“In 1969, the very first race for the 917 was at Spa. There were two 917s and five 908s. We were given the choice of driving a 917 if we wanted to. Both Siffert and I drove it and we didn't like it. We said, "No thanks, we'll use our 908 long tail." Gerhard Mitter and Udo Schutz, no doubt for the Glory of the Fatherland, decided to drive the 917 and blew it up on the first lap when they missed a gear. It had a very awkward gearbox at that time. Fifth gear was out of the gate to the right and up alongside third. It was terribly easy to go from fourth to third instead of fifth. Porsche made it a four-speed to correct that.”

[freedman]

JammyD said:

I can give you a quote by Brian Redman.....
“In 1969, the very first race for the 917 was at Spa. There were two 917s and five 908s. We were given the choice of driving a 917 if we wanted to. Both Siffert and I drove it and we didn't like it. We said, "No thanks, we'll use our 908 long tail." Gerhard Mitter and Udo Schutz, no doubt for the Glory of the Fatherland, decided to drive the 917 and blew it up on the first lap when they missed a gear. It had a very awkward gearbox at that time. Fifth gear was out of the gate to the right and up alongside third. It was terribly easy to go from fourth to third instead of fifth. Porsche made it a four-speed to correct that.”

And?

I said it isnt true that the gearbox/gearchange was a major cause of failure in the 917

I dont say they never failed or caused problems at times. After all these wer race cars without the reliability levels we see today. Also the quote says it blew up when they mnissed a gear becaus ethe gearbox was awkward, not faulty. The drivers made a mistake in the heat of race conditions

[shoestring7]

freedman said:

JammyD said:

I can give you a quote by Brian Redman.....
“In 1969, the very first race for the 917 was at Spa. There were two 917s and five 908s. We were given the choice of driving a 917 if we wanted to. Both Siffert and I drove it and we didn't like it. We said, "No thanks, we'll use our 908 long tail." Gerhard Mitter and Udo Schutz, no doubt for the Glory of the Fatherland, decided to drive the 917 and blew it up on the first lap when they missed a gear. It had a very awkward gearbox at that time. Fifth gear was out of the gate to the right and up alongside third. It was terribly easy to go from fourth to third instead of fifth. Porsche made it a four-speed to correct that.”

And?

I said it isnt true that the gearbox/gearchange was a major cause of failure in the 917

I dont say they never failed or caused problems at times. After all these wer race cars without the reliability levels we see today. Also the quote says it blew up when they mnissed a gear becaus ethe gearbox was awkward, not faulty. The drivers made a mistake in the heat of race conditions

John Wyer identified two main weaknesses in the 917, once his team had sorted the aero. One was the tendency for the engine to fly apart at slight over revs, the other was the weakness in transmission.

But what would he know eh?

SS7

[rubystone]

shoestring7 said:

John Wyer identified two main weaknesses in the 917, once his team had sorted the aero. One was the tendency for the engine to fly apart at slight over revs, the other was the weakness in transmission.

But what would he know eh?

SS7

Even more reason to ensure some form of cover was in place..and even more reason not to drive the car too fast or, once you had established a potential issue, to tempt fate by going out on track again...

[freedman]

shoestring7 said:

John Wyer identified two main weaknesses in the 917, once his team had sorted the aero. One was the tendency for the engine to fly apart at slight over revs, the other was the weakness in transmission.

But what would he know eh?

SS7

Wow, amazing that Gordon Wingrove says how strong and simple the transmission was

Issue isnt the transmission itself, it's the shift mechanism which needed care. The 917 did not suffer frequent failures as a result of dodgy shift mechanisms. Or no more frequent than any other cars of the time

Why do you think 917s won so many races?

They were fast and reliable.

Though you are trying to perpetuate an argument that has no bearing on Hales blowing up David Pipers car

[stuttgartmetal]

This story is totally rinsed.

Yaaawnfest.

[shoestring7]

freedman said:

shoestring7 said:

John Wyer identified two main weaknesses in the 917, once his team had sorted the aero. One was the tendency for the engine to fly apart at slight over revs, the other was the weakness in transmission.

But what would he know eh?

SS7

Wow, amazing that Gordon Wingrove says how strong and simple the transmission was

Issue isnt the transmission itself, it's the shift mechanism which needed care. The 917 did not suffer frequent failures as a result of dodgy shift mechanisms. Or no more frequent than any other cars of the time

Why do you think 917s won so many races?

They were fast and reliable.

Though you are trying to perpetuate an argument that has no bearing on Hales blowing up David Pipers car

From John Wyer's book 'The Certain Sound' : "The rev limiters were usually set at this speed (8,800rpm) but were not completely reliable and if the drivers missed a gear [it] did not act quickly enough to prevent damage. The trouble was that at 9,200rpm the valves touched the pistons which almost invariably resulted in a broken camshaft and a blown engine. We lost several engines as a result".

Also "[Hobbs] had the misfortune at Daytona to miss a gear and wreck and engine, a fatally easy thing to do on the 917" and "Being Siffert he had to make a grandstand play and pass them in front of the pits. In doing so he missed a gear and blew the engine".

Not only is it clear that the 917 did have a tendency in period to lose engines because of problems with the gear shift, but as it seems exactly what happened to Hales I'm not quite clear why you think it has no bearing.

SS7

[Hungrymc]

It was a known risk and was even discussed in advance wasn't it. Mark probably knows more about 917 history than the majority on here. I think it was discussed and there was a statement along the lines of 'not chasing lap times' meaning no pressure on fast, high rev gear changes.

It is a very sad story. I guess there was an element of Mark chancing his arm on the insurance which backfired.

The whole tone of the original article is ridiculously one sided though. I guess the moral is when using someone else's extremely valuable asset for your own financial gain, you need to be meticulous in the contracts and insurances. I always wince when signing that 20k excess document at Palmersport - but I do sign it and carry on.

[heebeegeetee]

shoestring7 said:

From John Wyer's book 'The Certain Sound' : "The rev limiters were usually set at this speed (8,800rpm) but were not completely reliable and if the drivers missed a gear [it] did not act quickly enough to prevent damage. The trouble was that at 9,200rpm the valves touched the pistons which almost invariably resulted in a broken camshaft and a blown engine. We lost several engines as a result".

Also "[Hobbs] had the misfortune at Daytona to miss a gear and wreck and engine, a fatally easy thing to do on the 917" and "Being Siffert he had to make a grandstand play and pass them in front of the pits. In doing so he missed a gear and blew the engine".

Not only is it clear that the 917 did have a tendency in period to lose engines because of problems with the gear shift, but as it seems exactly what happened to Hales I'm not quite clear why you think it has no bearing.

SS7

The Hobbs/Daytona incident was at an early test session for the 917. In his book Racing In The Rain, John Horsman (assistant and engineer to John Wyman) states "All went well at the test except for David Hobbs, who missed a shift and bent all the valves in the engine, something that was all too easy to do as we found out over the next two years."

Whilst readily acknowledging that the powerful and reliable engine was "most brilliant", he also says that the lack of a good rev limiter was the 917's Achilles heel.

[freedman]

shoestring7 said:

From John Wyer's book 'The Certain Sound' : "The rev limiters were usually set at this speed (8,800rpm) but were not completely reliable and if the drivers missed a gear [it] did not act quickly enough to prevent damage. The trouble was that at 9,200rpm the valves touched the pistons which almost invariably resulted in a broken camshaft and a blown engine. We lost several engines as a result".

Also "[Hobbs] had the misfortune at Daytona to miss a gear and wreck and engine, a fatally easy thing to do on the 917" and "Being Siffert he had to make a grandstand play and pass them in front of the pits. In doing so he missed a gear and blew the engine".

Not only is it clear that the 917 did have a tendency in period to lose engines because of problems with the gear shift, but as it seems exactly what happened to Hales I'm not quite clear why you think it has no bearing.

SS7

The 917 had a difficult gearshift that required the driver to be careful

It had a rev limited that wasnt fast enough to prevent a major over rev

However it wasnt some fatal flaw with the car as you are attempting to suggest. 917s were not blowing up every 3 laps because of shift issues

Anyway Neither of theses things are in any way relevant to the case in hand

Hales was given a rev limit of 7k (doesnt seem to be any dispute over this) and was warned to ensure he engaged gear in the right manner on each shift

He was also conductng a relatively sedate track test at Cadwell Park in perfect conditions with no competetive element and under no pressure to go fast

He unfortunately managed to over rev the car in those conditions and blow the engine.

The car blew up as a result of his error, not because it had a faulty shift mechanism

[JammyD]

Piston Heads Admin. Please can we rename this topic "The Freedman Show"

[heebeegeetee]

freedman said:

The car blew up as a result of his error, not because it had a faulty shift mechanism

You weren't there and you've probably never been any where near either car or driver. How can you possibly know what the gear shift was like?

Everybody who has ever been involved with 917s says they had tricky gearshifts. The man I quoyed who was co-running the John Wyer cars says it gave them a problem for two years.

Everyone accepts this except you, yet you've possibly never sat in a 917.

[wildman0609]

i haven't read all this thread, so it may have been mentioned, but £40k worth of damage to a 917 engine is sod all. these engines are worth £250k-£500k each easily. so the damage would not have been catastrophic and the engine certainly didn't explode as in the thread title. if you have a very bad over rev in a gt3 engine you can do £20k worth of damage, and we all know the 917 flat 12 is not the same as 2xflat 6's, its a bespoke beast with extremely rare and expensive parts. just to put things into perspective a friend of mine needed new throttle bodies for his 935 k3, as his were badly worn and would take the best part of 6 months to get rebuilt, a new set of throttle bodies for the 935 came to £35k.

[freedman]

heebeegeetee said:

You weren't there and you've probably never been any where near either car or driver. How can you possibly know what the gear shift was like?

Everybody who has ever been involved with 917s says they had tricky gearshifts. The man I quoyed who was co-running the John Wyer cars says it gave them a problem for two years.

Everyone accepts this except you, yet you've possibly never sat in a 917.

No I wasnt there, and nor most certainly were you or anyone else posting on the subject bar Mark Hales

I have been very close to both DPs 917s many times and have spent some time in discussion with David Piper though what that has to do with anything I'm not sure

Tricky gearshift, not sure where I suggested they werent, mabe re read what was actually said?

You seem totally incapable of accepting the fact that Hales blew the car up because he made an error shifting

He admitted the fact in writing, what else do you need to confirm matters for you?

[heebeegeetee]

freedman said:

No I wasnt there, and nor most certainly were you or anyone else posting on the subject bar Mark Hales

I have been very close to both DPs 917s many times and have spent some time in discussion with David Piper though what that has to do with anything I'm not sure

Tricky gearshift, not sure where I suggested they werent, mabe re read what was actually said?

You seem totally incapable of accepting the fact that Hales blew the car up because he made an error shifting

He admitted the fact in writing, what else do you need to confirm matters for you?

Because it's not as simple as that.

He said the engine failure was caused by his failing to select the gear. He didn't say why he failed to select the gear. You've assumed driver error and that's your prerogative, but we have no hard evidence either way.

What we do have is anecdotal evidence that there were problems on the day and lots of hard evidence that the gearshift has been an issue since day one, as alluded to in the judgement.

I'm not taking sides here, I have upmost regard for both gentlemen involved in this sad case.

[NJH]

For gods sake get real man. Hales admitting in writing it was his fault.

The End.

[freedman]

heebeegeetee said:

Because it's not as simple as that.

He said the engine failure was caused by his failing to select the gear. He didn't say why he failed to select the gear. You've assumed driver error and that's your prerogative, but we have no hard evidence either way.

I'm not assuming anything

Hales wrote to his insurers admitting fault

Appears to have been sufficient for a high coury judge to believe he was at fault, so its certainly good enough for me

[heebeegeetee]

freedman said:

I'm not assuming anything

1. Hales wrote to his insurers admitting fault

2. Appears to have been sufficient for a high coury judge to believe he was at fault, so its certainly good enough for me

1. I'm not aware he has explained why he missed the shift.

2. That doesn't surprise me, it does seem you take things at face value. I've seem too many judgement overturned over the years to have the same faith as you. It is well known that justice goes to the deepest pockets.

[NJH]

Where is that dead horse smiley when you need it.