High Mileage 996 Engines
Discussion
kVA said:
I figured it will cost me more to change into a 997 (which I'm not too sure about tbh) than keep mine and buy a new engine if needed. So I will... and keep the car and just be prepared to splash out on a new / recon motor if it all goes tits up at some stage!
Exactly the thought process I went through earlier this year. The cost to upgrade to a newer car was the same as I might end up spending on a engine rebuild, just to buy into what is essentially the same car (95% of the time). The new warranty costs and restrictions sealed the decision.Thanks for the valuable input Baz, whilst I'm no engineer so cannot comment on your findings, it's all interesting stuff and certainly sounds more than plausable, allowing us 996 owners to make more informed decisions on what to do with these supposedly burdonsome beasts.
Chris (71k and counting)
kVA said:
You can buy a 996 AND a brand spanking new engine for the same price as a similar mileage 993 in some cases: and have a newer, faster car, with a more modern interior, etc...
But... you won't get the additional cost of the new engine back come resale time, whereas the additional value of the 993 will still be there.Not that I'm advocating 993 ownership, just commenting.
Andrew D said:
kVA said:
You can buy a 996 AND a brand spanking new engine for the same price as a similar mileage 993 in some cases: and have a newer, faster car, with a more modern interior, etc...
But... you won't get the additional cost of the new engine back come resale time, whereas the additional value of the 993 will still be there.Not that I'm advocating 993 ownership, just commenting.
I agree - for as good as the 993 undoubtedly is - and despite the demand and high prices - many of them are never the less on course for some quite expensive engine and bodywork costs in the near future.
Most 996's (on the other hand) have quite a few more years left in them before reaching that age and much of the auxiliary electrical components (and body work parts) seem better to me and less expensive to fix anyway.
Although the 993 has legendary low depreciation - even so - as some new models age and also become desireable (thinking of Gt's etc) there is more choice and eventually even rare cars seem to lose value as they fit in with the general ranking including the newer models (my own 924 Carerra GT od which there are probably only 20 or so RHD left in the world and with legendary performance and unique technology (amongst the first with digital ignition I think - plastic wings, flush fitting windscreen etc) is not worth so much as I once expected any more).
Because of all this and that 996 prices are so low right now (IMHO) I think they are well worth considering as a better option.
Baz
Most 996's (on the other hand) have quite a few more years left in them before reaching that age and much of the auxiliary electrical components (and body work parts) seem better to me and less expensive to fix anyway.
Although the 993 has legendary low depreciation - even so - as some new models age and also become desireable (thinking of Gt's etc) there is more choice and eventually even rare cars seem to lose value as they fit in with the general ranking including the newer models (my own 924 Carerra GT od which there are probably only 20 or so RHD left in the world and with legendary performance and unique technology (amongst the first with digital ignition I think - plastic wings, flush fitting windscreen etc) is not worth so much as I once expected any more).
Because of all this and that 996 prices are so low right now (IMHO) I think they are well worth considering as a better option.
Baz
I agree that the current state of comparative values is unlikely to last, and that if you do high enough mileage the cost of a replacement engine will become less significant in comparison to ongoing maintenance 
. There are obviously situations in which such a plan could work out, for instance if you budget for a new 996 motor but don't end up needing one (jackpot!). However, I doubt that such a plan would prove cost-neutral for typical examples (i.e. 50k miles) and typical mileages.
That's not to say it's not worth doing, just that it's unlikely to be free.
. There are obviously situations in which such a plan could work out, for instance if you budget for a new 996 motor but don't end up needing one (jackpot!). However, I doubt that such a plan would prove cost-neutral for typical examples (i.e. 50k miles) and typical mileages.That's not to say it's not worth doing, just that it's unlikely to be free.
hartech said:
The 928 is a strange animal. It is under stressed and as most are automatic and very powerful - they spend most of their lives running at low revs and modest acceleration and as a result are reliable for a long time.
However several things will eventually catch up with them and then they will prove very expensive to renovate/repair.
The 4 valve heads run with softer cams than the 944 S2 and at lower average revs so the small camshaft chain, sprockets and cams themselves - lasts longer - but will probably let go one day after huge mileage.
The head gaskets are the same as the 944 S2 and will soon start needing replacement through old age rotting them away and then will cost double the 944 cost.
Rubber seals and pipes in the inlets system will eventually fail and be expensive to repair.
Finally there are enough computers etc in that car to get to the moon and back but eventually they will fail through old age and copper wire or silver/solder joints will deteriorate through corrosion and when that happens it will prove almost impossible to justify the repair costs.
They have been good cars up until now (if you like the sheer weight to drive and dated interior) but I expect them to start being too expensive to own soon for most people (but may last longer before that expensive times starts in drier climates than ours).
Hi Baz,However several things will eventually catch up with them and then they will prove very expensive to renovate/repair.
The 4 valve heads run with softer cams than the 944 S2 and at lower average revs so the small camshaft chain, sprockets and cams themselves - lasts longer - but will probably let go one day after huge mileage.
The head gaskets are the same as the 944 S2 and will soon start needing replacement through old age rotting them away and then will cost double the 944 cost.
Rubber seals and pipes in the inlets system will eventually fail and be expensive to repair.
Finally there are enough computers etc in that car to get to the moon and back but eventually they will fail through old age and copper wire or silver/solder joints will deteriorate through corrosion and when that happens it will prove almost impossible to justify the repair costs.
They have been good cars up until now (if you like the sheer weight to drive and dated interior) but I expect them to start being too expensive to own soon for most people (but may last longer before that expensive times starts in drier climates than ours).
I think they got to that point some time ago, hence the high number of poorly maintained examples around, and the "junk" status of the older models. Funnily enough they go for much more money on the continent, if you look on mobile.de a good 928 (original 4.5 version) will set you back euro 10k. Incidentally roughly half of the first 928s were manuals, the trend towards automatics came in the later models.
The thing I like about my 1979 car vs my 5 litre 32v S4 is the simplicity: mechanical fuel injection, no ABS etc etc. Whereas you are right, the later models have electronic traction control, electric seats with memory, ECU, EZK blah blah blah.
One of the nice things about the 928 is that a number of specialist providers have sprung up to meet the demand for things like replacement MAFs and ECUs. These are parts that are prohibitively expensive from Bosch, let alone Porsche, but by modern standards are not that complex and can be fabricated and in many cases improved upon by small businesses such as JDS Porsche in the UK. This means that we have a support network that can keep these cars going as the factory intended (or even better). Much like businesses like Hartech are doing with the 996.
You are quite right that these electrical connections are the real bugbear with the 928. As for the dated interior, it is very different to any 911 but anyone who has enjoyed the driving position and cabin of a 944 will feel right at home. I love the way the instrument pod moves up and down with the steering wheel, the instruments themselves are as good as any Porsche of the era (ie. superb) and little touches like the rheostat controlled variable wiper delay that can be activated without taking your hands off the wheel just make it a great car in ergonomic terms. Add to that full climate controlled aircon and it's not a bad package for 1978.
Anyway I've rambled on enough, thanks for the insights and I look forward to the 928 lifetime maintenance plan being offered soon.
Joel
79 928 manual - stolen, not yet recovered :-(
87 S4 manual
PS: dated != bad
I was trying to be kind Joel - and not controvetial - but not only are most of the ones we used to see in a poor state, but owners weemed to expect miracles from us in fixing them for next to nothing - but also never had all the problems sorted out - so they were always in difficulties.
We soon realised that they were not going to fit into the usual remit that enabled our good services to keep other models very reliable for little expense and since two other local independents seemed keen to work on them we decided to drop 928's from our portfolio (as there is plenty of work to go around and we believe in specialisation) and let them get the business and benefit from the experiences - so no chance of a Maintenance Plan from us now (sorry)!
We were persuaded by an existing customer with other Porsches that we did look after - to also look after his 928 S4 and reluctantly agreed - but you know it only confirmed what we already suspected - as it got worse and cost more and more with head gaskets, radiator, pipes and connections etc failing and it was expensive to work on.
I think it is one for the home mechanic to enjoy.
Good luck with yours though - I know there are some very nice examples owned by perfectly nice and sensible people as well - I am sure just like your good self.
Baz
We soon realised that they were not going to fit into the usual remit that enabled our good services to keep other models very reliable for little expense and since two other local independents seemed keen to work on them we decided to drop 928's from our portfolio (as there is plenty of work to go around and we believe in specialisation) and let them get the business and benefit from the experiences - so no chance of a Maintenance Plan from us now (sorry)!
We were persuaded by an existing customer with other Porsches that we did look after - to also look after his 928 S4 and reluctantly agreed - but you know it only confirmed what we already suspected - as it got worse and cost more and more with head gaskets, radiator, pipes and connections etc failing and it was expensive to work on.
I think it is one for the home mechanic to enjoy.
Good luck with yours though - I know there are some very nice examples owned by perfectly nice and sensible people as well - I am sure just like your good self.
Baz
hartech said:
I was trying to be kind Joel - and not controvetial
I think it is one for the home mechanic to enjoy.
Baz
I don't think any of the 944 range now are good buys unless someone is willing to do a lot of work themselves. My recent purchase 968 for example has already had about 6 hrs from me to fix various electrical and heating niggles and I reckon I have a fair few weekends left to do various other jobs such as fitting new front wishbone castor mounts, drop exhaust to permanently fix broken heat shield and refit side skirts and rear PU, cure slight leak in PAS hoses into reservoir (its a subzero weep PITA type leak that mostly never leaks). It has already had 500 notes spent by me in the garage when I didn't have the time to wait. A car like this would be completely uneconomical to own if one was to get a garage to fix every little problem and get it 100%. I suppose this is the crux of the matter because I get the impression that many can't be bothered, don't know any better or don't want to spend the money to get an old car 100% so just put up with all the faults.I think it is one for the home mechanic to enjoy.
Baz
Big bills for mechanical stuff I can cope with to some extent, you get a feeling like you are getting a renewed car. Rust however is just to depressing for me, I think the fact that a 996 or boxster is unlikely to have bad rust problems is very attractive.
TISPKJ said:
Dave 321 said:
my MK1 Gt3 has 88k miles, put out 361 bhp on a german Maha dyno in May! Doesnt use water, needs a pint of oil after driving to the Ring from Dublin and then 3 hard days lapping at the ring'.....
I change the oil 3-4 times per year in engine and gearbox, OE airfilters and fuel filters.. Recently had the timing chain tensioners changed as a precaution. Mite have chain done soon..
Yes but GT3 is 993 based motor unlike the 996I change the oil 3-4 times per year in engine and gearbox, OE airfilters and fuel filters.. Recently had the timing chain tensioners changed as a precaution. Mite have chain done soon..
My 00 996 has nearly 130,000 on the clock and is still going strong, shame about the few scratches to the paintwork though and my wheels need reconditioning, but it still runs like a dream. Importantly I do not do more than 3-3.5 thousand RPM until the engine is well up to temp. I am not just talking about the water temp. but also making sure the oil is up to temp. which for short journeys means that I am just toodling. But it gets a proper drive at least once a week.
50000 miles on an eight year old 3.4 and all is well. There's a very slight weep from the RMS but it hasn't got any worse in the past 25000 miles so it will get changed when the clutch needs doing. If the worst happens, I've saved enough over the past few years of ownership by using a top-notch specialist and not buying the OPC warranty to pay for a new engine.
May swap it for a GT3 next year though....
May swap it for a GT3 next year though....
130K is excellent and shows that the engines are basically sound and reflects the benefits of propper warming up before using the engine to its full potential.
However - without wishing to repeat my previous posting - our measurements indicate that the distortion of the bores will be an on-going problem that will eventually become too much for most engines. If it can be rectified soon enough the bores and pistons can be OK but left too long and more expensive work may be needed. Of course the harder they are driven the higher the loads and temperatures and piston blow by - so less aggressive driving may help extend life - its difficult for us to add this into our interpretation of the causes on an old car with several owners we never met.
Ironically tiptronics seem to be worse for bore ovality and premature cracking (which puzzled me for a bit) until I realised that the torque converter that allows the revs to rise a bit during acceleration results in me (not neccessarily others) more often than not accelerating from lower revs in gears than I would if it was a manual transmission - which gives rise to higher torque loadings and piston to cylinder wall pressure.
Crankshafts can fail a shell main bearing - usually on the flywheel end (we suspect because the additional overhang promotes flexing at that end due to the weight and load on the flywheel/torque converter) - or a big end in a random position (probably because the clearance has become too great to sustain oil pressure within the shell to crank clearance) - although when one goes the reduction in oil pressure to the crankshaft in general often then fails other shells. Similarly with crankshafts - the case hardness is not very deep and the shells don't fit too perfectly giving rise to local wear areas. Once one wears through the case hardness (typically 0.025mm) it doesn't last long afterwards but rebuilding with new shells in time can save the need for more expense. The undersized shells we are testing seem much better made and to have better quality surface finish and materials - so I think the quality of the standard items is not the best available - but time will tell.
So although we don't yet know exactly what mileage advice to give about when to rebuild these engines (and anyway even when we do we have to advise on the safe side and there will always be exceptions) - I still think that if one has achieved 100K or so - it may eventually prove to be the best time to rebuild the engine rather than admittedly being often able to get another 20 or 30k or so out of it but then perhaps having to replace many more expensive parts.
I appreciate that this could be interpretted as me trying to drum up business and you must reach your own conclusions about that and make your own mind up about my motives. Those that know me personally (and how busy we are and that I am personally seeking to wind down rather than have even more to do) will know that I am trying to offer my initial advice in good faith as a result of measuring and rebuilding lots and lots of these engines over the last few years.
Because of my advice that the engines are (for want of a better description) a little more fragile than previous designs and to warm them up well before driving fast - I am pleased to read reports of those that do are getting good mileages out of them - however I suspect that someone with such mechanical sympathy never over revs or over stresses their engines anyway (which really confirms my position).
It seems that driven hard, fast and without any concerns from cold - may reduce their life expectancy on average - something older models rarely suffered from but this newer generation will.
I still think they are great cars and a bargaim at present.
Finally in response to some criticism of me spending a lot of time posting here (and my "winding down" intentions) - may I explain that one of the biggest problems for a small specialist business comes when the founder is approaching retirement age - is becoming less capable than before and finding that the staff around him did not develop sufficiently to be good replacements.
This is something we will not suffer because in contrast we have not only have a young director and shareholder (Grant) who is the MD and has been on board from the outset - but we have been following a specific policy to train staff to very high standards - gradualy improving their independence - so that no one is irreplaceable - for many years.
We have for example made our own - in house - manuals with full colour pictures showing exactly how to do all the major engine and gearbox work and showing all the special tools and preceedures and torque settings etc. More recently this has enabled me to stand back a little and observe rather than lead (as you cannot train effectively if you are actually still there making decisions and doing the job yourself) and although the lads don't really need to manuals anyway now - it demonstrates a desire to be as good as we can jointly be as a team rather than as individuals and enables us to recruit and re-train to the highest standards.
One of the most difficult areas for training is to avoid always being the one yourself to make all the decisions. Typically even when you have left someone with a manual to do a specific job - if they hit a snag they usually prefer someone else to make the decisions. We cannot afford that if we are to exist for many years and move on as people get older or retire - so we try very hard to encourage and train them into a way of making decisions themselves. However I am still sometimes needed whenever something new crops up - more often than not just to confirm that the decision they would have made anyway - if left on their own - was right. Indeed to some extent the development of people demands that they get used to that decision makiing process and good at it. It never ceases to amaze me how capable people can become if they are nurtured by this type of training - as they eventually get just as good (if not better) than you yourself were to start with!
As a result we have noticed more recently a huge improvement in the decision making ability and general contribution of our staff - making the need for me to deal with day to day issues - less and less important. This is turn has enabled me to address such problems as these engines in more detail and with more time to concentrate (without distractions) than would otherwise have been the case.
Of course I don't actually intend ever to fully retire - but this process is essential for the interest and prospects of the staff as well as the business in general. This staff development is good for our business and great for our customers but does give me time on my hands here at work when I am standing back and observing (or keeping an eye on others who are developing) rather than doing some of the work myself and during those spells I often look at and comment on various postings - offering my experiences and knowlege (for what it is worth) to a wider audience.
So please don't think I have nothing better to do - nor that I have such a big ego that I like to be commenting on everything - it just happens to fit nicely into a training situation that now and again gives me a while to sit and ponder whats on the Internet and only in postings where I feel I may have something useful to add - do I comment further.
Baz
However - without wishing to repeat my previous posting - our measurements indicate that the distortion of the bores will be an on-going problem that will eventually become too much for most engines. If it can be rectified soon enough the bores and pistons can be OK but left too long and more expensive work may be needed. Of course the harder they are driven the higher the loads and temperatures and piston blow by - so less aggressive driving may help extend life - its difficult for us to add this into our interpretation of the causes on an old car with several owners we never met.
Ironically tiptronics seem to be worse for bore ovality and premature cracking (which puzzled me for a bit) until I realised that the torque converter that allows the revs to rise a bit during acceleration results in me (not neccessarily others) more often than not accelerating from lower revs in gears than I would if it was a manual transmission - which gives rise to higher torque loadings and piston to cylinder wall pressure.
Crankshafts can fail a shell main bearing - usually on the flywheel end (we suspect because the additional overhang promotes flexing at that end due to the weight and load on the flywheel/torque converter) - or a big end in a random position (probably because the clearance has become too great to sustain oil pressure within the shell to crank clearance) - although when one goes the reduction in oil pressure to the crankshaft in general often then fails other shells. Similarly with crankshafts - the case hardness is not very deep and the shells don't fit too perfectly giving rise to local wear areas. Once one wears through the case hardness (typically 0.025mm) it doesn't last long afterwards but rebuilding with new shells in time can save the need for more expense. The undersized shells we are testing seem much better made and to have better quality surface finish and materials - so I think the quality of the standard items is not the best available - but time will tell.
So although we don't yet know exactly what mileage advice to give about when to rebuild these engines (and anyway even when we do we have to advise on the safe side and there will always be exceptions) - I still think that if one has achieved 100K or so - it may eventually prove to be the best time to rebuild the engine rather than admittedly being often able to get another 20 or 30k or so out of it but then perhaps having to replace many more expensive parts.
I appreciate that this could be interpretted as me trying to drum up business and you must reach your own conclusions about that and make your own mind up about my motives. Those that know me personally (and how busy we are and that I am personally seeking to wind down rather than have even more to do) will know that I am trying to offer my initial advice in good faith as a result of measuring and rebuilding lots and lots of these engines over the last few years.
Because of my advice that the engines are (for want of a better description) a little more fragile than previous designs and to warm them up well before driving fast - I am pleased to read reports of those that do are getting good mileages out of them - however I suspect that someone with such mechanical sympathy never over revs or over stresses their engines anyway (which really confirms my position).
It seems that driven hard, fast and without any concerns from cold - may reduce their life expectancy on average - something older models rarely suffered from but this newer generation will.
I still think they are great cars and a bargaim at present.
Finally in response to some criticism of me spending a lot of time posting here (and my "winding down" intentions) - may I explain that one of the biggest problems for a small specialist business comes when the founder is approaching retirement age - is becoming less capable than before and finding that the staff around him did not develop sufficiently to be good replacements.
This is something we will not suffer because in contrast we have not only have a young director and shareholder (Grant) who is the MD and has been on board from the outset - but we have been following a specific policy to train staff to very high standards - gradualy improving their independence - so that no one is irreplaceable - for many years.
We have for example made our own - in house - manuals with full colour pictures showing exactly how to do all the major engine and gearbox work and showing all the special tools and preceedures and torque settings etc. More recently this has enabled me to stand back a little and observe rather than lead (as you cannot train effectively if you are actually still there making decisions and doing the job yourself) and although the lads don't really need to manuals anyway now - it demonstrates a desire to be as good as we can jointly be as a team rather than as individuals and enables us to recruit and re-train to the highest standards.
One of the most difficult areas for training is to avoid always being the one yourself to make all the decisions. Typically even when you have left someone with a manual to do a specific job - if they hit a snag they usually prefer someone else to make the decisions. We cannot afford that if we are to exist for many years and move on as people get older or retire - so we try very hard to encourage and train them into a way of making decisions themselves. However I am still sometimes needed whenever something new crops up - more often than not just to confirm that the decision they would have made anyway - if left on their own - was right. Indeed to some extent the development of people demands that they get used to that decision makiing process and good at it. It never ceases to amaze me how capable people can become if they are nurtured by this type of training - as they eventually get just as good (if not better) than you yourself were to start with!
As a result we have noticed more recently a huge improvement in the decision making ability and general contribution of our staff - making the need for me to deal with day to day issues - less and less important. This is turn has enabled me to address such problems as these engines in more detail and with more time to concentrate (without distractions) than would otherwise have been the case.
Of course I don't actually intend ever to fully retire - but this process is essential for the interest and prospects of the staff as well as the business in general. This staff development is good for our business and great for our customers but does give me time on my hands here at work when I am standing back and observing (or keeping an eye on others who are developing) rather than doing some of the work myself and during those spells I often look at and comment on various postings - offering my experiences and knowlege (for what it is worth) to a wider audience.
So please don't think I have nothing better to do - nor that I have such a big ego that I like to be commenting on everything - it just happens to fit nicely into a training situation that now and again gives me a while to sit and ponder whats on the Internet and only in postings where I feel I may have something useful to add - do I comment further.
Baz
Yet again - an informative and balanced reply.
To confirm my understanding? If a well treated 996 engine reaches 100K and is in sound running order (minimal oil consumption, good compression, good oil pressure no metallic rattles), this would be an ideal time for a rebuild.
If this is the case - assuming the condition above, what would be the likely cost of this rebuild (ball park).
And crystal ball gazing, how many miles will a cared for rebuild last?
To confirm my understanding? If a well treated 996 engine reaches 100K and is in sound running order (minimal oil consumption, good compression, good oil pressure no metallic rattles), this would be an ideal time for a rebuild.
If this is the case - assuming the condition above, what would be the likely cost of this rebuild (ball park).
And crystal ball gazing, how many miles will a cared for rebuild last?
I too would be interested in costings as although mine has done 130,000 miles and uses about a litre of oil a year, in other words it gets done at service intervals rather than need topping in between. I would rather pay out for preventative measures than suffer an expensive and probably cost-ineffective rebuild if it did all go wrong.
Plus I get a holiday 'oop north out of it as I would come up and stay nearby whilst the tinkering went on.
Plus I get a holiday 'oop north out of it as I would come up and stay nearby whilst the tinkering went on.
For customers not on our Lifetime Maintenance Plan - there are so many options during a rebuild that perhaps the best way to look at it is to state for a car arriving in one piece and running to a car finished - running and road tested - a full strip and rebuild of the engine - replacing all the gaskets and seals (but doing nothing else) etc is presently around £2870 for a Boxster and £2970 for a 996 (+£170 if Tiptronic).
Then you can add the following options. To upgrade and replace the intermediate shaft and spindle - £150. To replace all the chains, usual chain guides and crankshaft shells - £329 (+ £40 if hivo chain). To re-round and support all the oval bores £483. To decoke heads and regrind in valves £330. So the total to do all that would be £4262 + Vat (for a 996). There can be other extras like replacing the oil separator, sometimes some exhaust clamps and usually to re-drill and helicoil some exhaust studs that can add £200-£300 to the average bill making the total £4463 to £4562. Then sometimes people take advantage of the situation to fit a new clutch plate etc (if the old one is on its last legs).
I suppose this means that around £4500 + Vat should do the job for most people.
I can see no reason after a rebuild why the engine should not be good for as many miles as it has already done - but that is not making a promise because obviously none of us know yet what will happen in years to come until it does. In any case it would take many more years to reach that total as cars over 10 years old in general do not on average cover as many miles as in their earlier years, because they tend to become second or third cars by then.
Of course costs are much less if the customer is on our scheme and the engine is run until it fails (unless it is a really major blow up) in which case it might just end up similar if many parts need replacing.
I hope this helps,
Baz
Then you can add the following options. To upgrade and replace the intermediate shaft and spindle - £150. To replace all the chains, usual chain guides and crankshaft shells - £329 (+ £40 if hivo chain). To re-round and support all the oval bores £483. To decoke heads and regrind in valves £330. So the total to do all that would be £4262 + Vat (for a 996). There can be other extras like replacing the oil separator, sometimes some exhaust clamps and usually to re-drill and helicoil some exhaust studs that can add £200-£300 to the average bill making the total £4463 to £4562. Then sometimes people take advantage of the situation to fit a new clutch plate etc (if the old one is on its last legs).
I suppose this means that around £4500 + Vat should do the job for most people.
I can see no reason after a rebuild why the engine should not be good for as many miles as it has already done - but that is not making a promise because obviously none of us know yet what will happen in years to come until it does. In any case it would take many more years to reach that total as cars over 10 years old in general do not on average cover as many miles as in their earlier years, because they tend to become second or third cars by then.
Of course costs are much less if the customer is on our scheme and the engine is run until it fails (unless it is a really major blow up) in which case it might just end up similar if many parts need replacing.
I hope this helps,
Baz
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