Journalist sued after 917 engine explodes
Discussion
freedman said:
markcoznottz said:
Impossible to prove he buzzed the engine without telemetry, surely the owner knows this, you presumably would be fairly switched on to have accrued enough wealth to purchase such a car. Hales is a very experienced racer, he no doubt respected the car, it broke, deal with it. Was it properly maintained etc, loads of questions.
You realise Piper has owned his original 917 since 1969 and the one in question he accrued the parts that it is built from over may years, so nothing to do with accuing the wealth to buy a 1.5m plus carAnd the was it properly maintained comment is truly laughable
this is on the other thread with more info:
andmark4389 said:
I have since learnt to add the words THE FOLLOWING IS WITHOUT PREJUDICE.
Chaps; thanks for the kind words but if I may, I'd like to proffer a completely factual account. I have hardly ever posted on a forum but in this case, sadly, I am in a position to know.
The test was a joint effort between two publishers (Octane/Dennis, and 911 and Porsche World/Auto Italia/CHP).
The 917 part of the test was a commercial arrangement and the fee was split between Octane Magazine and the rest. The other car in the test (Nick Mason's Ferrari 512S) was provided on the understanding that out of pocket costs were covered.
There was an agreement between Piper and Hales as to the terms of the hire. Piper knew that crash damage was covered by insurance which was provided by Octane Magazine but there was a very specific discussion about damage to the engine in the case of an overrev. The Porsche 917 has a very tricky gearshift which caught out top level drivers like Vic Elford and Jo Siffert. This is well documented in the history books
Hales regularly gets to drive cars like this because his reputation is well established and his experience with different cars is extensive. He is not however, and never has been in a position to indemnify any damage. This is well established custom and practice in the historic race car world.
Piper agreed that the mechanicals would not be covered.
This was an agreement between gentlemen and was not written down. Piper chose not to remember the conversation in court.
On the day, the 917's gearshift was particularly difficult, especially shifting into third. Hales came straight into the pits to report this to Piper's mechanic. Hales was told that this was a matter of adjustment (the implication being that they didn't have the time or the inclination to make that adjustment) and please to be careful.
Hales found that if he held his hand on the gearlever and released the clutch, the overrun would tell him if and when the gear was engaged. Sometimes it wouldn't and he had to go back to second and try the shift again at lower revs. Not an ideal way to get the feel of a 917.
Later in the day, Hales short-shifted from second to third to make sure the gear was changed before the next corner but didn't hold his hand on the lever long enough. The car drove on the synchromesh for a fraction of a second then spat the gear out and the engine overrevved.
In court, the mechanic chose not to remember the visit to the pits or the conversation that took place there.
This is all a matter of public record, as is an invoice which was produced in evidence, bearing the date February 30th. The issuer of the invoice also misspelt his own name.
Piper spent £63,000 in lawyer's fees and was predictably successful in the High Court.
Hales made some very silly mistakes since the event, and was badly served by less expensive lawyers.
Octane Magazine made a financial offer of settlement. This was declined and there was no further discussion.
Piper has since sold the car for £1.3million which is entirely his prerogative.
Hales is now facing bankruptcy and likely to lose his house.
Chaps; thanks for the kind words but if I may, I'd like to proffer a completely factual account. I have hardly ever posted on a forum but in this case, sadly, I am in a position to know.
The test was a joint effort between two publishers (Octane/Dennis, and 911 and Porsche World/Auto Italia/CHP).
The 917 part of the test was a commercial arrangement and the fee was split between Octane Magazine and the rest. The other car in the test (Nick Mason's Ferrari 512S) was provided on the understanding that out of pocket costs were covered.
There was an agreement between Piper and Hales as to the terms of the hire. Piper knew that crash damage was covered by insurance which was provided by Octane Magazine but there was a very specific discussion about damage to the engine in the case of an overrev. The Porsche 917 has a very tricky gearshift which caught out top level drivers like Vic Elford and Jo Siffert. This is well documented in the history books
Hales regularly gets to drive cars like this because his reputation is well established and his experience with different cars is extensive. He is not however, and never has been in a position to indemnify any damage. This is well established custom and practice in the historic race car world.
Piper agreed that the mechanicals would not be covered.
This was an agreement between gentlemen and was not written down. Piper chose not to remember the conversation in court.
On the day, the 917's gearshift was particularly difficult, especially shifting into third. Hales came straight into the pits to report this to Piper's mechanic. Hales was told that this was a matter of adjustment (the implication being that they didn't have the time or the inclination to make that adjustment) and please to be careful.
Hales found that if he held his hand on the gearlever and released the clutch, the overrun would tell him if and when the gear was engaged. Sometimes it wouldn't and he had to go back to second and try the shift again at lower revs. Not an ideal way to get the feel of a 917.
Later in the day, Hales short-shifted from second to third to make sure the gear was changed before the next corner but didn't hold his hand on the lever long enough. The car drove on the synchromesh for a fraction of a second then spat the gear out and the engine overrevved.
In court, the mechanic chose not to remember the visit to the pits or the conversation that took place there.
This is all a matter of public record, as is an invoice which was produced in evidence, bearing the date February 30th. The issuer of the invoice also misspelt his own name.
Piper spent £63,000 in lawyer's fees and was predictably successful in the High Court.
Hales made some very silly mistakes since the event, and was badly served by less expensive lawyers.
Octane Magazine made a financial offer of settlement. This was declined and there was no further discussion.
Piper has since sold the car for £1.3million which is entirely his prerogative.
Hales is now facing bankruptcy and likely to lose his house.
Wow!
So Mr Piper spent £13k more on lawyers than it would have cost to fix the engine and move on. He was obviously confident of a win and has plenty of time on his hands. I hope I care a bit less when I'm 80-odd, especially if I'm sitting on a £1.3 million car.
What a big shame for all involved. A lesson learnt for all concerned there then. Maybe a 50/50 offer early on may have been worth trying? For all I know it was.
Principals can be very expensive things.
Sometimes it pays to know when to quit and move on.
The flip side is of course that if a journo buzzed my engine and killed it I'd be miffed and want some help with the costs. Of course, most journos have considerably more cash than me though and my car isn't worth £1.3m.
I'm not saying that just because Mr Piper had a valuable car he shouldn't have expected any compen, but honestly I wouldn't be wanting the stress of a court battle at the age of 82. Unless he's an experienced court battler/attendee.
Bottomline is Gentlemens agreements are great and all nicey-nicey, until something happens!
If in doubt, don't lend it out!
So Mr Piper spent £13k more on lawyers than it would have cost to fix the engine and move on. He was obviously confident of a win and has plenty of time on his hands. I hope I care a bit less when I'm 80-odd, especially if I'm sitting on a £1.3 million car.
What a big shame for all involved. A lesson learnt for all concerned there then. Maybe a 50/50 offer early on may have been worth trying? For all I know it was.
Principals can be very expensive things.
Sometimes it pays to know when to quit and move on.
The flip side is of course that if a journo buzzed my engine and killed it I'd be miffed and want some help with the costs. Of course, most journos have considerably more cash than me though and my car isn't worth £1.3m.
I'm not saying that just because Mr Piper had a valuable car he shouldn't have expected any compen, but honestly I wouldn't be wanting the stress of a court battle at the age of 82. Unless he's an experienced court battler/attendee.
Bottomline is Gentlemens agreements are great and all nicey-nicey, until something happens!
If in doubt, don't lend it out!
I for one hope it does not come to selling his home,not many deserve that,best of luck to him.
917 probably get more maint than most modern cars,they vibrate like hell and need a close eye kept on them.I had one factory supported 917 lunch his gearbox in front of me at lemans,and another buzzed its engine, the other two broke down also!
917 probably get more maint than most modern cars,they vibrate like hell and need a close eye kept on them.I had one factory supported 917 lunch his gearbox in front of me at lemans,and another buzzed its engine, the other two broke down also!
agtlaw said:
Mark Hales has posted on the other thread that Mr Piper won this case.
He owes Piper £50,000 plus £63,000 legal fees. Hales also has his own legal fees to pay. He says that he's likely to lose his house.
Where's the other thread?He owes Piper £50,000 plus £63,000 legal fees. Hales also has his own legal fees to pay. He says that he's likely to lose his house.
Edited by agtlaw on Saturday 19th January 11:49
heebeegeetee said:
Please. This is a car enthusiast's website and people like David Piper command a great deal of respect.
I would suggest you're on completely the wrong website. There are other sites more suited to your comments.
respect? how?I would suggest you're on completely the wrong website. There are other sites more suited to your comments.
by bankrupting someone because they can?
his 917'sworth more with a rebuilt engine at the end of the day, anyway.
Edited by stuttgartmetal on Sunday 20th January 08:35
stuttgartmetal said:
respect? how?
Because he has been a fantastic petrol head, devoting his life to 'the cause'. What he does in his business life is his business.As it is for Mr Hales, and he has made the business decisions that he did.
It's all very sad, but it's not for us to comment on the private, working or business lives of individuals. We're car and motoring fans so let's leave it at that.
And btw, an engine rebuild on a 1.3 million bitsa is really neither here or there. It won't be the last one it receives.
stuttgartmetal said:
respect? how?
by bankrupting someone because they can?
his 917'sworth more with a rebuilt engine at the end of the day, anyway.
We have no idea why this ended up in court, but obviously liabilty couldnt be agreed, and Piper believed Hales was at faultby bankrupting someone because they can?
his 917'sworth more with a rebuilt engine at the end of the day, anyway.
Edited by stuttgartmetal on Sunday 20th January 08:35
the only version we have is that from Hales which makes it all sound like the car was faulty when he first drove it and Pipers mecahanics couldnt be bothered to fix it. Implausible doesnt come close IMO, and obviously the judge agreed or Hales wouldnt have lost.
Will be interesting to see the judgement and why he found for Piper.
I doubt Pipers thinking was to bankrupt Hales, do you?
And this is a 917 with a value in excess of 1mil, not a 20 year old 911 worth 15k, spending 40k on the engine will have no impact on the cars value whatsoever
heebeegeetee said:
Please. This is a car enthusiast's website and people like David Piper command a great deal of respect.
I would suggest you're on completely the wrong website. There are other sites more suited to your comments.
we are not just car enthusiasts, the people behind the wheel and how they treat others is also of great interest. Very British is one way of putting it. I am reading this and thinking whatever happens to me when I get old, if I am lucky enough to own a £1m Porsche I would want others to drive it and not be in fear of ruining their lives.I would suggest you're on completely the wrong website. There are other sites more suited to your comments.
See this months Aston one77 article in Evo, they could not get insurance to drive it but the owner of the car is a car nut and made it happen. do you think the owner would have bankrupted the magazine if they would have blown the engine?
heebeegeetee said:
stuttgartmetal said:
respect? how?
Because he has been a fantastic petrol head, devoting his life to 'the cause'. What he does in his business life is his business.As it is for Mr Hales, and he has made the business decisions that he did.
It's all very sad, but it's not for us to comment on the private, working or business lives of individuals. We're car and motoring fans so let's leave it at that.
And btw, an engine rebuild on a 1.3 million bitsa is really neither here or there. It won't be the last one it receives.
I mean, look at what they've done to poor old Sir Jimmy Savile.
So he liked a young un.
That in no way detracts from the fact that he was a dedicated charity fundraiser, who raised millions of pounds for such good causes.
He dedicated his life to the cause.
What he did in his private life was private.
Yep, now I see the similarities, and how to compartmentalise and ignore irrelevancies in a persons character.
Thanks for that
Carl_Docklands said:
we are not just car enthusiasts, the people behind the wheel and how they treat others is also of great interest.
Ok, yes, but it also seems that we want our heroes to be perfect people, and the moment we discover that they may not be perfect we like to rip into them.Given that the perfect human being doesn't exist it means that we are going to rip in to every one of our heroes.
We don't know the full facts of this case at all, but in true Hamilton-mania style, not having the facts is not going to stop some people from immediately laying in, even if it means waiting until a driver who is not a household name reaches the age of 82.
I'm, a car enthusiast, and I think the likes of David Piper are absolutely fantastic individuals who have led a life I could only dream of. What happens in his private life is of absolutely no interest to me though, and I think it's rather er, creepy to think it could be of any interest to anyone.
Fact is, people are making statements about an individual that they don't know, based on what they've read in a newspaper and on the internet.
I mean, we have absolutely no way of knowing that Mr Hales has actually posted on these forums, do we?
stuttgartmetal said:
Now you put it like that, how could i be so obtuse.
I mean, look at what they've done to poor old Sir Jimmy Savile.
So he liked a young un.
That in no way detracts from the fact that he was a dedicated charity fundraiser, who raised millions of pounds for such good causes.
He dedicated his life to the cause.
What he did in his private life was private.
Yep, now I see the similarities, and how to compartmentalise and ignore irrelevancies in a persons character.
Thanks for that
There are no similaritiesI mean, look at what they've done to poor old Sir Jimmy Savile.
So he liked a young un.
That in no way detracts from the fact that he was a dedicated charity fundraiser, who raised millions of pounds for such good causes.
He dedicated his life to the cause.
What he did in his private life was private.
Yep, now I see the similarities, and how to compartmentalise and ignore irrelevancies in a persons character.
Thanks for that
But I imagine you know that and are just posting nonsnse to get a response
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