Another question about N rated tyres
Discussion
isaldiri said:
From 2 seperate owners I've heard this as well that the CGT SS tyres are standard supersports just stamped with the N tag and made in 335/30 20s for the rears.
It is good press for Porsche to claim that further work had gone into developing specific N rated tyres for the CGT but purely on economics, there is no chance PAG would bother to go through all the hassle (and expense more pertinently) of developing a new custom tyre for a 10 year old car that had a 1270 production run as they would never get the money back especially when there is a more than suitable off the shelf solution.
Yeah, this sounds right. It is good press for Porsche to claim that further work had gone into developing specific N rated tyres for the CGT but purely on economics, there is no chance PAG would bother to go through all the hassle (and expense more pertinently) of developing a new custom tyre for a 10 year old car that had a 1270 production run as they would never get the money back especially when there is a more than suitable off the shelf solution.
It seems some people, possibly newer owners seem to want to believe everything which comes from Porsche marketing, (maybe because they want to be reassured about their new Porsche purchase or maybe just inexperienced in the brand) but Porsche marketing have spouted so many howlers in the past that one really has to be cynical.
What would be really interesting is could our Michelin man tell us the differences between the two tyres in the specs below other than the stamping on the sides ? Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ? One is for the Panamera (I think ?) and the other for a Ferrari so presumable quite different cars dynamically so different compounds etc would make sense but some details would be great.
Matt Seabrook said:
Why would a company give away it's intellectual property on a public forum for free?
I don't think anyone is looking for intellectual property like chemical formulas and technical drawings..... a simple explanation would suffice but one given by someone who actually knows rather than the blanket marketing BS we have been given so far.TB993tt said:
Matt Seabrook said:
Why would a company give away it's intellectual property on a public forum for free?
I don't think anyone is looking for intellectual property like chemical formulas and technical drawings..... a simple explanation would suffice but one given by someone who actually knows rather than the blanket marketing BS we have been given so far.I used to work for a major oil company and discovered much BS during my 5 years with them.
An example was that 2 different engine oils with very different marketing and pricing, I found came out of the same tanks.
I asked one of the operators how it could be out of the same tank as it was the same oil. He said that it wasn't the same oil as they had different tests they had to pass. As long as the tests were passed, they could be sold as the differing oils!
An example was that 2 different engine oils with very different marketing and pricing, I found came out of the same tanks.
I asked one of the operators how it could be out of the same tank as it was the same oil. He said that it wasn't the same oil as they had different tests they had to pass. As long as the tests were passed, they could be sold as the differing oils!
mollytherocker said:
I used to work for a major oil company and discovered much BS during my 5 years with them.
An example was that 2 different engine oils with very different marketing and pricing, I found came out of the same tanks.
I asked one of the operators how it could be out of the same tank as it was the same oil. He said that it wasn't the same oil as they had different tests they had to pass. As long as the tests were passed, they could be sold as the differing oils!
An example was that 2 different engine oils with very different marketing and pricing, I found came out of the same tanks.
I asked one of the operators how it could be out of the same tank as it was the same oil. He said that it wasn't the same oil as they had different tests they had to pass. As long as the tests were passed, they could be sold as the differing oils!
TB993tt said:
Yeah, this sounds right.
Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ?
Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ?
TB993tt said:
I don't think anyone is looking for intellectual property like chemical formulas and technical drawings..... a simple explanation would suffice
In one post you ask for technical detail in another you say you don’t want technical detail. You have been given an over view of the process by another poster on here and to be honest I don’t think you are likely to get a very in depth description. If the poster come back and said yes they are different compounds then I can see that the next question will be well are they constructed differently and so on. You are only being forced down the N rating route by OPC so if you don’t have an OCP warranty you don’t have to fit N rated tyres. Fit the tyres you feel are best for you and your car. Like I have said before the tweaks are likely to be small and most of us just aren’t good enough drivers to be able to tell the difference (me included) just some people like to think they are driving gods.
4 pages and I'm amazed no-one's mentioned the fact that Porsche themselves fit non-N rated tyres to their own cars for use at the PEC. Could it be that they think they're the most appropriate tyre available, and more suitable than N-rated ones? 
It's things like that that make a mockery of the N rating system - "do as we say, not as we do"
It's things like that that make a mockery of the N rating system - "do as we say, not as we do"
thegoose said:
4 pages and I'm amazed no-one's mentioned the fact that Porsche themselves fit non-N rated tyres to their own cars for use at the PEC. Could it be that they think they're the most appropriate tyre available, and more suitable than N-rated ones?
It's things like that that make a mockery of the N rating system - "do as we say, not as we do"
Michelin also ran launch days for the PSS using 911s, and I'm not dead. I hope.It's things like that that make a mockery of the N rating system - "do as we say, not as we do"
thegoose said:
4 pages and I'm amazed no-one's mentioned the fact that Porsche themselves fit non-N rated tyres to their own cars for use at the PEC. Could it be that they think they're the most appropriate tyre available, and more suitable than N-rated ones?
It's things like that that make a mockery of the N rating system - "do as we say, not as we do"
Agreed Porsche need to get their act sorted as its not clear for customers. It's things like that that make a mockery of the N rating system - "do as we say, not as we do"
Matt Seabrook said:
You are only being forced down the N rating route by OPC so if you don’t have an OCP warranty you don’t have to fit N rated tyres. Fit the tyres you feel are best for you and your car. Like I have said before the tweaks are likely to be small and most of us just aren’t good enough drivers to be able to tell the difference (me included) just some people like to think they are driving gods.
I have used N tyres on my 911s for 25 years, the occasional non N on 3.2 Carreras in the late 80s when Yokohama had some interesting alternatives but generally I applaud the concept of Porsche providing us with approved tyres and especially as usually they are no more expensive than non N. The Supersports are a special case as has been illustrated above and in other posts..... We all KNOW that the SS are the best road rubber on the planet currently and even tho' Porsche use them on their 911s they still refuse to stamp em up for us, it is quite bizarre... I have used them on my 997GT2 for a few years now since they very first became available when the 325 size was manufactured by Michelin in the USA.
TB993tt said:
Yeah, this sounds right.
It seems some people, possibly newer owners seem to want to believe everything which comes from Porsche marketing, (maybe because they want to be reassured about their new Porsche purchase or maybe just inexperienced in the brand) but Porsche marketing have spouted so many howlers in the past that one really has to be cynical.
What would be really interesting is could our Michelin man tell us the differences between the two tyres in the specs below other than the stamping on the sides ? Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ? One is for the Panamera (I think ?) and the other for a Ferrari so presumable quite different cars dynamically so different compounds etc would make sense but some details would be great.
Ok.. It seems some people, possibly newer owners seem to want to believe everything which comes from Porsche marketing, (maybe because they want to be reassured about their new Porsche purchase or maybe just inexperienced in the brand) but Porsche marketing have spouted so many howlers in the past that one really has to be cynical.
What would be really interesting is could our Michelin man tell us the differences between the two tyres in the specs below other than the stamping on the sides ? Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ? One is for the Panamera (I think ?) and the other for a Ferrari so presumable quite different cars dynamically so different compounds etc would make sense but some details would be great.
It's not Marketing BS. And I should know, as I approve anything we put out technically in the UK!
Take a step back for a moment, and imagine this...
we make a tyre Size X, it's great, fine and dandy. Several manufacturers test them and like it. Some say, thanks guys we will take that one for our car. Another one comes along and says, "ah wee like it, but when we test it to our specs on our car it does this..., hence could you tweak that little bit there to sort that out?"
This is basically what we do with our markings, e.g. N, *, MO, K etc.
The tweaks can be a number of things.
So the example below between the K and the N, (Ferrari and Porsche) will most likely be a compound tweak, and therefore specifically for that car. Each car will produce different stresses hence need different tyre ingredients. After all it's like shoes.. we might all have size 10 feet but we don't all wear our shoes the same way do we??
Now in an ideal world we would love just one "flavour" of tyre X, as it simplifies production and logistics. But we don't because we have a variety of flavours.. So while I can't and won't tell you what the compound specs are, suffice to say they are different.
If it was just a case of sticking a marking on the side, everyone would do it!
jamiemcwhir said:
So while I can't and won't tell you what the compound specs are, suffice to say they are different.
I can fully appreciate you not wishing to divulge technical information, but you have more or less answered my question with this statement which now permits me to make my own mind up. jamiemcwhir said:
Ok..
It's not Marketing BS. And I should know, as I approve anything we put out technically in the UK!
Take a step back for a moment, and imagine this...
we make a tyre Size X, it's great, fine and dandy. Several manufacturers test them and like it. Some say, thanks guys we will take that one for our car. Another one comes along and says, "ah wee like it, but when we test it to our specs on our car it does this..., hence could you tweak that little bit there to sort that out?" ...
I get this, but please could you try to explain why Porsche choose to use non-N rated tyres on their own cars, which are being used specifically to demonstrate the cars' handling characteristics and prowess to customers and prospective customers, or alternatively why said tyres still haven't been N rated?It's not Marketing BS. And I should know, as I approve anything we put out technically in the UK!
Take a step back for a moment, and imagine this...
we make a tyre Size X, it's great, fine and dandy. Several manufacturers test them and like it. Some say, thanks guys we will take that one for our car. Another one comes along and says, "ah wee like it, but when we test it to our specs on our car it does this..., hence could you tweak that little bit there to sort that out?" ...
Makes no sense to me
anonymous said:
[redacted]
One possibility:Michelin and Porsche develop a tyre for the CGT. It's different from the stock tyre due to Porsches requirements.
When the Cayman comes about, Porsche test it on the Cayman and find that the original requirements for the CGT, despite being a more powerful car, have been carried across into Cayman use. Porsche are happy to recommend its use.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
What if it is some kind of shared development programme. Ie tyre supplier makes tyre X, Porsche help them to improve it using a new car platform, Michelin go back and improve the base tyre, but in return also provide an N stamped batch which allows many benefit to car manufacturer:- good marketing messages (we have put in extra development time)
- brand and OPC affinity
- warranty / servicing stickiness
- etc
And usually tyre manufacturer can modify the base non N spec tyre to essentially be the same as the N spec one.
So both parties win win....?
Edited by LaSource on Friday 15th August 13:52
jamiemcwhir said:
TB993tt said:
Yeah, this sounds right.
It seems some people, possibly newer owners seem to want to believe everything which comes from Porsche marketing, (maybe because they want to be reassured about their new Porsche purchase or maybe just inexperienced in the brand) but Porsche marketing have spouted so many howlers in the past that one really has to be cynical.
What would be really interesting is could our Michelin man tell us the differences between the two tyres in the specs below other than the stamping on the sides ? Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ? One is for the Panamera (I think ?) and the other for a Ferrari so presumable quite different cars dynamically so different compounds etc would make sense but some details would be great.
Ok.. It seems some people, possibly newer owners seem to want to believe everything which comes from Porsche marketing, (maybe because they want to be reassured about their new Porsche purchase or maybe just inexperienced in the brand) but Porsche marketing have spouted so many howlers in the past that one really has to be cynical.
What would be really interesting is could our Michelin man tell us the differences between the two tyres in the specs below other than the stamping on the sides ? Presumably they are made in separate production runs if only for the different sidewall stamps but what other technical differences are there ? One is for the Panamera (I think ?) and the other for a Ferrari so presumable quite different cars dynamically so different compounds etc would make sense but some details would be great.
It's not Marketing BS. And I should know, as I approve anything we put out technically in the UK!
Take a step back for a moment, and imagine this...
we make a tyre Size X, it's great, fine and dandy. Several manufacturers test them and like it. Some say, thanks guys we will take that one for our car. Another one comes along and says, "ah wee like it, but when we test it to our specs on our car it does this..., hence could you tweak that little bit there to sort that out?"
This is basically what we do with our markings, e.g. N, *, MO, K etc.
The tweaks can be a number of things.
So the example below between the K and the N, (Ferrari and Porsche) will most likely be a compound tweak, and therefore specifically for that car. Each car will produce different stresses hence need different tyre ingredients. After all it's like shoes.. we might all have size 10 feet but we don't all wear our shoes the same way do we??
Now in an ideal world we would love just one "flavour" of tyre X, as it simplifies production and logistics. But we don't because we have a variety of flavours.. So while I can't and won't tell you what the compound specs are, suffice to say they are different.
If it was just a case of sticking a marking on the side, everyone would do it!
If the N marking is to ensure the tyres stay within such a close specification, how come different manufacturers' tyres are all approved even when some give much different, and often demonstrably worse, performance than other makes?
Eg. The Pirelli PZR is clearly inferior to the Michelin PS, in terms of grip, wear and predictability, yet it gets approved. Are you telling us that a slight tweak in compound makes the N rated PS2 so much better than its none approved equivalent, which by inference is a worse tyre than the approved PZR?
After 25 years in the tyre business, I say there may be a difference but it's not significant. It's marketing.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You're the one who seems to be stuck on "perfect".For EXAMPLE: Lets say while Michelin and Porsche developed the front for the CGT, they found the "base version" of the tyre struggled with extreme loads the CGT placed on it, so they stiffened both the construction and carcass to cope.
Now, perhaps what PORSCHE want from the tyre on the Cayman is good steering feel and slightly longer tread life than the "base version" of the tyre, so where the changes for the CGT enabled the tyre to cope with the cars power, they've also resulted in a slightly better wearing and feedback tyre for the Cayman. Based on that, they're happy to avoid the expensive of another OE modification program, and Porsche owners get the SuperSport more quickly, which is what you've all been harping on about, right?
This is of course just an example, and there are many other options. It seems you're suggesting Porsche have recommended the use of this tyre for the Cayman SOLELY because it already has the N stamp. While this might be the case, trolling a guy from Michelin who's trying to provide a few answers isn't overly constructive. Why not write an angry letter to Porsche and report back with how far you get?
jamiemcwhir said:
Ok..
It's not Marketing BS. And I should know, as I approve anything we put out technically in the UK!
Take a step back for a moment, and imagine this...
we make a tyre Size X, it's great, fine and dandy. Several manufacturers test them and like it. Some say, thanks guys we will take that one for our car. Another one comes along and says, "ah wee like it, but when we test it to our specs on our car it does this..., hence could you tweak that little bit there to sort that out?"
This is basically what we do with our markings, e.g. N, *, MO, K etc.
The tweaks can be a number of things.
So the example below between the K and the N, (Ferrari and Porsche) will most likely be a compound tweak, and therefore specifically for that car. Each car will produce different stresses hence need different tyre ingredients. After all it's like shoes.. we might all have size 10 feet but we don't all wear our shoes the same way do we??
Now in an ideal world we would love just one "flavour" of tyre X, as it simplifies production and logistics. But we don't because we have a variety of flavours.. So while I can't and won't tell you what the compound specs are, suffice to say they are different.
If it was just a case of sticking a marking on the side, everyone would do it!
How refreshing to have somebody post with some actual knowledge on these things rather than stupid, foul mouthed comments which contribute nothing to the original question asked in the thread.It's not Marketing BS. And I should know, as I approve anything we put out technically in the UK!
Take a step back for a moment, and imagine this...
we make a tyre Size X, it's great, fine and dandy. Several manufacturers test them and like it. Some say, thanks guys we will take that one for our car. Another one comes along and says, "ah wee like it, but when we test it to our specs on our car it does this..., hence could you tweak that little bit there to sort that out?"
This is basically what we do with our markings, e.g. N, *, MO, K etc.
The tweaks can be a number of things.
So the example below between the K and the N, (Ferrari and Porsche) will most likely be a compound tweak, and therefore specifically for that car. Each car will produce different stresses hence need different tyre ingredients. After all it's like shoes.. we might all have size 10 feet but we don't all wear our shoes the same way do we??
Now in an ideal world we would love just one "flavour" of tyre X, as it simplifies production and logistics. But we don't because we have a variety of flavours.. So while I can't and won't tell you what the compound specs are, suffice to say they are different.
If it was just a case of sticking a marking on the side, everyone would do it!
Thank you, jamiemcwhir. More factual contributions like yours might build the Porsche section back to an informative resource.
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