I've tried everything . All fall at the feet of ...
Discussion
Eulogy to the 964 RS......
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R/997 GT3 RS and feel how, as a sop to the 964 RS and 993 RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original.
It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to drive quickly all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...... wink
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Will such words ever be written about a 991 GT3 ?
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R/997 GT3 RS and feel how, as a sop to the 964 RS and 993 RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original.
It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to drive quickly all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...... wink
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Will such words ever be written about a 991 GT3 ?
SidewaysSi said:
I can see and appreciate the love for the aircooled cars but given the choice between a good aircooled or a 996GT3, what would you go for?
Give me some options and I'll answer , that would be interesting . If it helps I bought my 964 rs at about what a good 996 gt3 costs now , give the choice I'd have the 964rs . 
I am thinking a GT3 vs a tweaked 964/3.2 Carrera or even SC. Perhaps with some fibreglass panels, seats,cage, LSD etc.
Reason I ask is I am contemplating my next purchase and it will be either a modified air cooled or I will find the extra pennies for a GT3.
Reason I ask is I am contemplating my next purchase and it will be either a modified air cooled or I will find the extra pennies for a GT3.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Wednesday 7th January 22:41
Slippydiff said:
Eulogy to the 964 RS......
Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R/997 GT3 RS and feel how, as a sop to the 964 RS and 993 RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original.
It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to drive quickly all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...... wink
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Will such words ever be written about a 991 GT3 ?
Yep, all reminds me of my old 3.2, would I go back to it, no way. As for quality, don't make me laugh, the newer cars are much better, plus you can get warm in them, see where your going in the dark and the wife doesn't think she's in a souped up beetle.Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R/997 GT3 RS and feel how, as a sop to the 964 RS and 993 RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*te it feels in it's action when compared to the original.
It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide.
Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing.
Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler.
Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended.
Try again, but being too timid, you stall it .......
Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the recalcitrant gearbox.
Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed.
Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ......
From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment.
At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth.
A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate.
A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steering wheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction.
But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels.
Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution.
It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steering wheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats.
On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense.
And when you've had your hit, you'll not need to drive quickly all the way home, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are.
Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out. When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out :
Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear.
And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...... wink
Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........
Will such words ever be written about a 991 GT3 ?
Baz99 said:
Yep, all reminds me of my old 3.2, would I go back to it, no way. As for quality, don't make me laugh, the newer cars are much better, plus you can get warm in them, see where your going in the dark and the wife doesn't think she's in a souped up beetle.
Whoosh on so many levels Baz .......... 
SidewaysSi said:
I am thinking a GT3 vs a tweaked 964/3.2 Carrera or even SC. Perhaps with some fibreglass panels, seats,cage, LSD etc.
Reason I ask is I am contemplating my next purchase and it will be either a modified air cooled or I will find the extra pennies for a GT3.
Mate Reason I ask is I am contemplating my next purchase and it will be either a modified air cooled or I will find the extra pennies for a GT3.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Wednesday 7th January 22:41
Come for a coffee and I will arrange for you to experience cars exactly as you have described . It will be an interesting experiment . Are you up for it ? I'm being serious , I think it will be very interesting
Edited by wtdoom on Wednesday 7th January 23:36
wtdoom said:
SidewaysSi said:
I am thinking a GT3 vs a tweaked 964/3.2 Carrera or even SC. Perhaps with some fibreglass panels, seats,cage, LSD etc.
Reason I ask is I am contemplating my next purchase and it will be either a modified air cooled or I will find the extra pennies for a GT3.
Mate Reason I ask is I am contemplating my next purchase and it will be either a modified air cooled or I will find the extra pennies for a GT3.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Wednesday 7th January 22:41
Come for a coffee and I will arrange for you to experience cars exactly as you have described . It will be an interesting experiment . Are you up for it ? I'm being serious , I think it will be very interesting
Edited by wtdoom on Wednesday 7th January 23:36
I will drop you a note-thanks!
I have a 993 clubbie and a GT3 so hopefully can be objective. Personally I'd take a GT3 - 996 or passive 997 over an air cooled car BUT I'd take an air cooled over any other 911. For me, the most engaging 911 that I've ever driven - and I'm blessed to have driven quite a few - is the 996RS.
What I would say about air cooled cars is that they are all lovely, you don't need an RS to have fun in one. I'd take an air cooled 911 over a 991GT3 any day.
For the last poster, I also have an Elise S1 Sport 190 which is probably the holy grail of Elise's and whilst it is a delightful little car, I'd take an air cooled over that as well..
What I would say about air cooled cars is that they are all lovely, you don't need an RS to have fun in one. I'd take an air cooled 911 over a 991GT3 any day.
For the last poster, I also have an Elise S1 Sport 190 which is probably the holy grail of Elise's and whilst it is a delightful little car, I'd take an air cooled over that as well..
Edited by Steve Rance on Thursday 8th January 07:51
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff