HELP - LEGAL ADVICE NEEDED
Discussion
Calling all legal eagles out there . . . .
I need help from anyone who is a solicitor regarding a BIG problem I had last wednesday with a car I bought 3 days earlier.
Picked up a new car on sunday 16/10/05 - a porsche 911 turbo - my dream car since I was old enough to say "porsche".
Wednesday 19/10/05 I was driving home from work, and my nearside front wheel fell off!
With the help of the RAC guy we managed to get the wheel back on by pinching a wheel nut off each of the other wheels (all 5 wheel nuts from the wheel that came off went missing), got the car onto the trailer and towed it home.
Initially RAC guy and I thought someone had tried to pinch the wheels, but when we took a closer look at the remaining wheel nuts we discovered to our horror that ALL the wheel nuts including the locking wheel nuts were only hand tight
I am 99.9% certain that no one has tried to get the wheels off, as there is no damage to the wheels, all wheel nuts were hand tight (not torqued tight - i.e, it is not a big struggle to get the wheel nuts undone using a wheel brace - no standing on it to undo the nuts which is my usual experience when I have had to change wheels due to puncture, etc.), and this was the one and only time I had taken the car to this place of work - so no one could have planned to remove the wheels by getting hold of a locking wheel nut thingy.
Also, the car was left in a well lit place, directly outside my place of work on a reasonably busy residential road. I have parked the EVO here many times, along with other cars E.G BMWs with smart alloys, and I have never had the slightest hint of trouble.
In my mind, this leaves one grim conclusion . . . . The OPC havent fully torqued down the wheelnuts after their inspection - they have probably gone over the wheelnuts with an air driven wrench when the car was on the ramp, then lowered the car but got distracted so never got around to fully tightening the wheelnuts.
So I spoke to the dealer I bought the car from - an official Porsche centre on the Thursday morning to explain the situation. He tried to fob me off by saying someone had obviously tried to pinch my wheels. I then phoned back again to argue the point, saying I am sure that no-one has been at my wheels. He was adamant in his service staffs' workmanship, and says there is NO chance that the wheel nuts were not fully torqued. His argument is that they did a wheel alignment, and they road tested the car prior to handover. He also says the car had an "independent RAC inspection", and that these things would have picked up loose wheel nuts. He also says that the 300 odd miles I had done in the car would have been impossible since the sunday if the car had left the OPC with loose wheel nuts.
I had done about 300 miles of gentle driving since I picked up the car (too scared to spank it yet, plus wasnt fully used to the car)
I then spoke to a friend / mechanic to see what he thought, and he said the wheel alignment argument was rubbish, as the wheels only need to be tight enough to avoid any play. Other people have said that it is entirely possible to drive this sort of distance on not-fully-tight wheelnuts, as the frictional heat of the hubs causes expansion /contraction which helps to keep the wheels in place.
When given this info on a third phone call, the dealer was still adamant 110% in his staffs workmanship. The damage sustained was a wrecked front brake caliper, hub and wheel, which I really cannot grumble about 'cos if it had happened 10 mins later I would have been on a dual carriageway doing dual carriageway speeds.
So I took the matter up with Porsche customer services, who after a few days came back to me with the same reply I had been getting from the OPC - that it was impossible to do this sort of mileage on "loose" wheelnuts, and that they were sure that the wheel nuts were tight.
The cost of the repairs is not the issue, I know the OPC is not going to admit liability under any circumstances, and I know I cannot prove absolutely 100% that someone hasnt tried to pinch the wheels. But I just think that this is absolutely disgusting, and have no option but to take it further.
I last spoke to the dealer today, who said they MAY be willing to come to some arrangement to do the repairs cheaper than elsewhere.
I have also been given the contact number for the MD of that area who I have been told to contact.
My argument is this - why would a thief leave 20 wheel nuts (4X5 including 1 locking wheel nut on each wheel) hand tight? Surely if you were going to pinch the wheels the wheelnuts would be very loose or even completely off so the wheels can just be whipped off easily??
I find it hard to believe that the locking wheel nut studs are so easy to get hold of that someone would be able to get hold of one in an afternoon and have time to try and steal my wheels!
What are the chances of a thief passing by the area with the locking wheelnut stud in his pocket on the one afternoon I was parked just outside my place of work??
I'm sorry if you have been bored silly reading this, but this is what help I need
1) What are my rights??
2) How strong is my argument??
3) Would someone be willing to represent me?? Of course I am willing to pay for your services at the usual rate. I thought I would ask on the forum as you guys will probably know more about cars / the workings of dealerships than the only other solicitor I have had dealings with (who did the legal house buying things for us)
I am aware I should also follow the Trading standards route, who I am going to contact tomorrow.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP - DONT LET THE DEALERS GET AWAY WITH THIS - THEY NEED TO KNOW THEY CANNOT TREAT THEIR CUSTOMERS LIKE THIS!!!!!!!
I need help from anyone who is a solicitor regarding a BIG problem I had last wednesday with a car I bought 3 days earlier.
Picked up a new car on sunday 16/10/05 - a porsche 911 turbo - my dream car since I was old enough to say "porsche".
Wednesday 19/10/05 I was driving home from work, and my nearside front wheel fell off!
With the help of the RAC guy we managed to get the wheel back on by pinching a wheel nut off each of the other wheels (all 5 wheel nuts from the wheel that came off went missing), got the car onto the trailer and towed it home.
Initially RAC guy and I thought someone had tried to pinch the wheels, but when we took a closer look at the remaining wheel nuts we discovered to our horror that ALL the wheel nuts including the locking wheel nuts were only hand tight
I am 99.9% certain that no one has tried to get the wheels off, as there is no damage to the wheels, all wheel nuts were hand tight (not torqued tight - i.e, it is not a big struggle to get the wheel nuts undone using a wheel brace - no standing on it to undo the nuts which is my usual experience when I have had to change wheels due to puncture, etc.), and this was the one and only time I had taken the car to this place of work - so no one could have planned to remove the wheels by getting hold of a locking wheel nut thingy.
Also, the car was left in a well lit place, directly outside my place of work on a reasonably busy residential road. I have parked the EVO here many times, along with other cars E.G BMWs with smart alloys, and I have never had the slightest hint of trouble.
In my mind, this leaves one grim conclusion . . . . The OPC havent fully torqued down the wheelnuts after their inspection - they have probably gone over the wheelnuts with an air driven wrench when the car was on the ramp, then lowered the car but got distracted so never got around to fully tightening the wheelnuts.
So I spoke to the dealer I bought the car from - an official Porsche centre on the Thursday morning to explain the situation. He tried to fob me off by saying someone had obviously tried to pinch my wheels. I then phoned back again to argue the point, saying I am sure that no-one has been at my wheels. He was adamant in his service staffs' workmanship, and says there is NO chance that the wheel nuts were not fully torqued. His argument is that they did a wheel alignment, and they road tested the car prior to handover. He also says the car had an "independent RAC inspection", and that these things would have picked up loose wheel nuts. He also says that the 300 odd miles I had done in the car would have been impossible since the sunday if the car had left the OPC with loose wheel nuts.
I had done about 300 miles of gentle driving since I picked up the car (too scared to spank it yet, plus wasnt fully used to the car)
I then spoke to a friend / mechanic to see what he thought, and he said the wheel alignment argument was rubbish, as the wheels only need to be tight enough to avoid any play. Other people have said that it is entirely possible to drive this sort of distance on not-fully-tight wheelnuts, as the frictional heat of the hubs causes expansion /contraction which helps to keep the wheels in place.
When given this info on a third phone call, the dealer was still adamant 110% in his staffs workmanship. The damage sustained was a wrecked front brake caliper, hub and wheel, which I really cannot grumble about 'cos if it had happened 10 mins later I would have been on a dual carriageway doing dual carriageway speeds.
So I took the matter up with Porsche customer services, who after a few days came back to me with the same reply I had been getting from the OPC - that it was impossible to do this sort of mileage on "loose" wheelnuts, and that they were sure that the wheel nuts were tight.
The cost of the repairs is not the issue, I know the OPC is not going to admit liability under any circumstances, and I know I cannot prove absolutely 100% that someone hasnt tried to pinch the wheels. But I just think that this is absolutely disgusting, and have no option but to take it further.
I last spoke to the dealer today, who said they MAY be willing to come to some arrangement to do the repairs cheaper than elsewhere.
I have also been given the contact number for the MD of that area who I have been told to contact.
My argument is this - why would a thief leave 20 wheel nuts (4X5 including 1 locking wheel nut on each wheel) hand tight? Surely if you were going to pinch the wheels the wheelnuts would be very loose or even completely off so the wheels can just be whipped off easily??
I find it hard to believe that the locking wheel nut studs are so easy to get hold of that someone would be able to get hold of one in an afternoon and have time to try and steal my wheels!
What are the chances of a thief passing by the area with the locking wheelnut stud in his pocket on the one afternoon I was parked just outside my place of work??
I'm sorry if you have been bored silly reading this, but this is what help I need
1) What are my rights??
2) How strong is my argument??
3) Would someone be willing to represent me?? Of course I am willing to pay for your services at the usual rate. I thought I would ask on the forum as you guys will probably know more about cars / the workings of dealerships than the only other solicitor I have had dealings with (who did the legal house buying things for us)
I am aware I should also follow the Trading standards route, who I am going to contact tomorrow.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HELP - DONT LET THE DEALERS GET AWAY WITH THIS - THEY NEED TO KNOW THEY CANNOT TREAT THEIR CUSTOMERS LIKE THIS!!!!!!!
nervous said:
try ph'er 'Rudeboy', hes a legal chappie and if he cant help he might be able to point you in the direction of someone who can.
hope you get it sorted. glad you werent hurt, at least your lucky in that sense
I dunno about getting damages etc. could be tricky. What you could do however is initiate small claims proceedings against them whilst talking to CAB and perhaps health and safety (presumably contact local council).
Small claims starts off with a letter stating you will be taking them to court and they have 2 weeks to do whatever it is they ought to have done in the first place before you issue proceedings. That letter normally kicks people into gear. You can google for info like this.
Frankly I see no concievable way that a thief got part way through loosening all your wheel bolts and then got disturbed. Oh and they had the locking key too did they?
I'd speak to the MD first though and state that you can't believe their negligence, and that if they can't sort something out for you in terms of repair and goodwill, you will instigate legal proceedings.
Also bring Porsche UK into it if you haven't already.
>> Edited by DanH on Tuesday 25th October 20:33
I would have thought HSE would have been a very effective route to apply pressure. Yes, having the costs met would be nice, but ensuring a repetition isn't possible is also high on the agenda.
As you say, ten minutes later and it could have been a police investigation into a fatac. Every company has apprentices and that's the sort of job they are tasked with. Just a thought.
As you say, ten minutes later and it could have been a police investigation into a fatac. Every company has apprentices and that's the sort of job they are tasked with. Just a thought.
I think I'd have a friendly chat with the Dealer Prinicipal. I'd certainly take that approach before I involved trading standards, lawyers, the manufacturer etc. You'll probably get more out of them by getting them "onside".
I'd decide exactly what it is you're asking for. (decide your end game, all the repairs or 50/50 etc)
I've been on the other side of "the wheels fell off three days later" arguments, or similar a few times....it may just be possible somebody has tampered with your car?
>> Edited by 2 Smokin Barrels on Tuesday 25th October 20:49
>> Edited by 2 Smokin Barrels on Tuesday 25th October 20:55
I'd decide exactly what it is you're asking for. (decide your end game, all the repairs or 50/50 etc)
I've been on the other side of "the wheels fell off three days later" arguments, or similar a few times....it may just be possible somebody has tampered with your car?
>> Edited by 2 Smokin Barrels on Tuesday 25th October 20:49
>> Edited by 2 Smokin Barrels on Tuesday 25th October 20:55
2 Smokin Barrels said:
I think I'd have a friendly chat with the Dealer Prinicipal. I'd certainly take that approach before I involved trading standards, lawyers, the manufacturer etc. You'll probably get more out of them by getting them "onside".
I'd decide exactly what it is you're asking for. (decide your end game, all the repairs or 50/50 etc)
I've been on the other side of "the wheels fell off three days later" arguments, or similar a few times....it may just be possible somebody has tampered with your car?
>> Edited by 2 Smokin Barrels on Tuesday 25th October 20:49
>> Edited by 2 Smokin Barrels on Tuesday 25th October 20:55
Yeah because there are tonnes of people going around with torque wrenches and the locking nut keys for 911s... Come off it!
As to what he should ask for, I'd be asking for full rectification, and a goodwill of some kind. Free service or a Porsche Driver Education course (full day!) etc.
I used to have a workshop and several people on here were customers of mine, albeit before they had Porsches.
I once had the same happen to one of my customers, but he stopped before the wheel came off and it was three days later.
I sacked the mechanic on the spot and compensated the customer. He was a good mechanic, but they all make mistakes. The most common cause of mistakes was their mobile phone going mid way through a job.
I banned their phones from the workshop, following that incident.
In the circumstances, I am staggered that you have been treated in this way.
I once had the same happen to one of my customers, but he stopped before the wheel came off and it was three days later.
I sacked the mechanic on the spot and compensated the customer. He was a good mechanic, but they all make mistakes. The most common cause of mistakes was their mobile phone going mid way through a job.
I banned their phones from the workshop, following that incident.
In the circumstances, I am staggered that you have been treated in this way.
Hi Pevo,
To pursue a claim against the OPC you would have to prove they have been negligent.
This would mean that they have breached their duty of care when preparing the car for you.
Clearly, if it can be proved that they did not torque the wheel nuts, they will be liable to make good all the damage caused together with your foreseeable losses.
Your problem is proving that they are to blame and that it was not the actions of an unknown intermediate party which caused the wheel to fall off.
This is largely a question of analysing all the surrounding factual information leading up to the unfortunate incident.
The good news is that the although the burden of proof is upon you to prove negigence, this being a civil matter rather than a criminal matter, the test is based upon the 'balance of probabilities' rather than proof 'beyond all reasonable doubt'test.
The 'balance of probabilities' test is a much easier threshold to cross to prove civil negligence.51% for ; 49% against would suffice!
Accordingly a court would look at all the material facts and evidence and decide whether on the balance of probabilities the garage was to blame rather than an unknown intermediary.Personally it does sound ludicrous that someone would simply loosen the wheel nuts of each wheel and do nothing more.It is far more plausible that the garage overlooked torquing them.
Please note that although this advice is given in good faith, I am not a litigation lawyer and you should therefore take specialist litigation legal advice before pursuing any legal claim against the garage.
Good luck!
To pursue a claim against the OPC you would have to prove they have been negligent.
This would mean that they have breached their duty of care when preparing the car for you.
Clearly, if it can be proved that they did not torque the wheel nuts, they will be liable to make good all the damage caused together with your foreseeable losses.
Your problem is proving that they are to blame and that it was not the actions of an unknown intermediate party which caused the wheel to fall off.
This is largely a question of analysing all the surrounding factual information leading up to the unfortunate incident.
The good news is that the although the burden of proof is upon you to prove negigence, this being a civil matter rather than a criminal matter, the test is based upon the 'balance of probabilities' rather than proof 'beyond all reasonable doubt'test.
The 'balance of probabilities' test is a much easier threshold to cross to prove civil negligence.51% for ; 49% against would suffice!
Accordingly a court would look at all the material facts and evidence and decide whether on the balance of probabilities the garage was to blame rather than an unknown intermediary.Personally it does sound ludicrous that someone would simply loosen the wheel nuts of each wheel and do nothing more.It is far more plausible that the garage overlooked torquing them.
Please note that although this advice is given in good faith, I am not a litigation lawyer and you should therefore take specialist litigation legal advice before pursuing any legal claim against the garage.
Good luck!
From a technical standpoint it isn't surprising that it was one of the front wheels that fell off first if all bolts were loose. Some vehicles (eg Austin Champ) used to have left hand threads on the wheels on one side and RH the other to guard against the tendency of less than fully tight wheel nuts to rotate in one direction. And the front wheel will put more lateral pressure on than the rear.
And from my own shameful experience as a forgetful home mechanic 300 miles sounds about right!
And from my own shameful experience as a forgetful home mechanic 300 miles sounds about right!
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