Motec 964 Turbo
Discussion
Well, it's been a while since I made any meaningful contribution to this forum, and quite rightly, some may say I never have 
But after a bit of time, money and head scratching (by head i probably mean arse, but that's another story), 9M delivered the latest instalment in my T2's life.
What you see here is a T2 with the following Mods:
964 3.3 Turbo
Motec M600
Motec Dual wideband Lambda
Motec Data Logging
Motec Boost control
K27 HF Turbo
Billet diverter valve
K&N Pod filter
3.2 Manifold
Custom Headers and cat bypass
GT2 Clutch and LWT flywheel
Roock Sport progressive suspension
993tt Brakes, ceramic pads, SS lines
Strut brace
3.6 Speedlines
3.6 Rear bumper
Turbo S spoiler
RSR front splitter
Zymol'd
So, the story. It all started with a trip to G-Force to get a power run on their Dyno. That was at the top of the hill. Next followed a rapid decent down the slope known as 'Slippy'.
Still with the GF boys (short version of story...) I had 1 bar, K&N panel filter, headers & cat bypass added, narrow band lambda removed along with air injectors. After all this buggering around the car was putting out about 370bhp. Those of you at Brunters will have seen this was good enough to dispense with 360's, Nobels and RS6's. But Dave and his 993tt (430bhp) was still showing me a clean pair of heals over 120mph.
Time for a trip to the clinic. First I ordered a special turbo from the States (K27 HF) along with brakes and a diverter valve. The K27 HF is a new K27 Quick Spool, with in the cold side CNC'd, internals binned and replaced with New Technology compressor and turbine. Both have 2 extra vains and much improved efficiency. Should be good for 550+ bhp with a spool time as quick as the K27 QuickSpool. No pics of the turbo but here are the brakes and diverter valve (converted to BOV):
Colin then set about adding all the new bits and converting the fuelling system to Motec. This is somewhat more involved than an 964 RS as the Turbo uses the ****ing **** CIS injection system. This basically required binning the entire fuel and intake system. Here is a pic of the new 3.2 intake in position. Note it has been rotated to meet the intercooler neck:
Obviously when you bin so much of a cars engine some creativity is required to rebuild it. The job sheet reads like a story in its own right.
Once all new bits had been added, body work completed, it was all put back together and mapping could begin. Unfortunately as with all project like this it never quite goes to plan. First there was a technical issue with one of the sensors that were added to provide ref and sync signals, second an overboost problem that had surface in the old CIS days was back with vengeance. I'll leave Colin to explain the ref/syc sensor issue.
To cut a very long story short, the wastegate pipe on the headers was a) too narrow, and b) at a too acute angle. This was preventing excess boost being vented and hence creped. We had the headers modified and fitted a new wastegate for good measure:
This combo finally had things sorted.
So to the Dyno. Basically 420bhp and 470ft/Lbs. 'But I thought you said the turbo was good for 550bhp', i hear your cry. It is, but the **** stock cams absolutely murder the power after 5000 rpm. The cams are so mild, in an effort to overcome the lag of the old turbos and the CIS.
Next phase of development will address this with Turbo S cams, 3.4 ltr and racing springs and titanium retainers....
So now I have all this new torque (if not out and out HP), what does it mean. Well I only had the opportunity to try 2 accelerometer (times acceleration and G force) runs. The first run I did the classic, ' it's my car and i'm not going to shag it by dumping the clutch', and consequentially bogged down horribly, kept the Nike down any way. The results were a bit surprising. 0-60 came up in 5.9 seconds (stop laughing ...you will....), 0-100 in 9.5 secs. Do the math. This car will easily hit a 4 sec 0-60 and that would make the 0-100 7.5 secs. Time to try again. This time no such pussy footing around. 5000 rpm and foot off the clutch (just as well it's uprated). Before I knew it badgers were flashing before my eyes. It initially hooked up, but then the boost came in and it was a very, very, very sideways traversal up the test track. So much so, I had to take my foot completely off the accelerator. I put it right back on once I had traction again and finished of the run. This time 0-60 in 5.3secs, and 0-100 in 9.0 dead. So all I need to do, is learn to drive and we are on to a winner....
....getting tired typing so i'll call it a day here for the time being... more to follow i'm sure.
But after a bit of time, money and head scratching (by head i probably mean arse, but that's another story), 9M delivered the latest instalment in my T2's life. What you see here is a T2 with the following Mods:
964 3.3 Turbo
Motec M600
Motec Dual wideband Lambda
Motec Data Logging
Motec Boost control
K27 HF Turbo
Billet diverter valve
K&N Pod filter
3.2 Manifold
Custom Headers and cat bypass
GT2 Clutch and LWT flywheel
Roock Sport progressive suspension
993tt Brakes, ceramic pads, SS lines
Strut brace
3.6 Speedlines
3.6 Rear bumper
Turbo S spoiler
RSR front splitter
Zymol'd
So, the story. It all started with a trip to G-Force to get a power run on their Dyno. That was at the top of the hill. Next followed a rapid decent down the slope known as 'Slippy'.
Still with the GF boys (short version of story...) I had 1 bar, K&N panel filter, headers & cat bypass added, narrow band lambda removed along with air injectors. After all this buggering around the car was putting out about 370bhp. Those of you at Brunters will have seen this was good enough to dispense with 360's, Nobels and RS6's. But Dave and his 993tt (430bhp) was still showing me a clean pair of heals over 120mph.
Time for a trip to the clinic. First I ordered a special turbo from the States (K27 HF) along with brakes and a diverter valve. The K27 HF is a new K27 Quick Spool, with in the cold side CNC'd, internals binned and replaced with New Technology compressor and turbine. Both have 2 extra vains and much improved efficiency. Should be good for 550+ bhp with a spool time as quick as the K27 QuickSpool. No pics of the turbo but here are the brakes and diverter valve (converted to BOV):
Colin then set about adding all the new bits and converting the fuelling system to Motec. This is somewhat more involved than an 964 RS as the Turbo uses the ****ing **** CIS injection system. This basically required binning the entire fuel and intake system. Here is a pic of the new 3.2 intake in position. Note it has been rotated to meet the intercooler neck:
Obviously when you bin so much of a cars engine some creativity is required to rebuild it. The job sheet reads like a story in its own right.
Once all new bits had been added, body work completed, it was all put back together and mapping could begin. Unfortunately as with all project like this it never quite goes to plan. First there was a technical issue with one of the sensors that were added to provide ref and sync signals, second an overboost problem that had surface in the old CIS days was back with vengeance. I'll leave Colin to explain the ref/syc sensor issue.
To cut a very long story short, the wastegate pipe on the headers was a) too narrow, and b) at a too acute angle. This was preventing excess boost being vented and hence creped. We had the headers modified and fitted a new wastegate for good measure:
This combo finally had things sorted.
So to the Dyno. Basically 420bhp and 470ft/Lbs. 'But I thought you said the turbo was good for 550bhp', i hear your cry. It is, but the **** stock cams absolutely murder the power after 5000 rpm. The cams are so mild, in an effort to overcome the lag of the old turbos and the CIS.
Next phase of development will address this with Turbo S cams, 3.4 ltr and racing springs and titanium retainers....
So now I have all this new torque (if not out and out HP), what does it mean. Well I only had the opportunity to try 2 accelerometer (times acceleration and G force) runs. The first run I did the classic, ' it's my car and i'm not going to shag it by dumping the clutch', and consequentially bogged down horribly, kept the Nike down any way. The results were a bit surprising. 0-60 came up in 5.9 seconds (stop laughing ...you will....), 0-100 in 9.5 secs. Do the math. This car will easily hit a 4 sec 0-60 and that would make the 0-100 7.5 secs. Time to try again. This time no such pussy footing around. 5000 rpm and foot off the clutch (just as well it's uprated). Before I knew it badgers were flashing before my eyes. It initially hooked up, but then the boost came in and it was a very, very, very sideways traversal up the test track. So much so, I had to take my foot completely off the accelerator. I put it right back on once I had traction again and finished of the run. This time 0-60 in 5.3secs, and 0-100 in 9.0 dead. So all I need to do, is learn to drive and we are on to a winner....
....getting tired typing so i'll call it a day here for the time being... more to follow i'm sure.
Yes... but then I'd have to rebuild the entire engine as the con rods are not as strong as the 930's along with most of the other bottom end stuff. I can run 650bhp without touching rods and bottom end (although I probably would). Plus i'd need 2 new turbo's, 2 new intercoolers,etc....
The 930 is an exception engine in some respects and pants in others. CIS is bloody horrible. But the bottom end was lifted straight out the 934. The con rods are the strongest used in any road car, bar the new titanium rods in the GT3 RS. Incidentally the crank from the GT3 RS is a 930 item....
But all this "my rod is bigger than your's" a-side, this was never meant to be sensible project. It was one of those things that was done, because it could. It was also alot of fun working out stuff. There was no road map for us on this project. Myself and Colin knew where we starting from, and where the end goal was, and a couple of way-points. But the rest was old school innovation and engineering....
The 930 is an exception engine in some respects and pants in others. CIS is bloody horrible. But the bottom end was lifted straight out the 934. The con rods are the strongest used in any road car, bar the new titanium rods in the GT3 RS. Incidentally the crank from the GT3 RS is a 930 item....
But all this "my rod is bigger than your's" a-side, this was never meant to be sensible project. It was one of those things that was done, because it could. It was also alot of fun working out stuff. There was no road map for us on this project. Myself and Colin knew where we starting from, and where the end goal was, and a couple of way-points. But the rest was old school innovation and engineering....
Greg, it probably sounds a bit better. First it now has a K&N Pod, so much better induction noise. Second, the astute of you may have noticed on the wastegate pic that we have binned the wastegate Cat that was attached. So, once on boost it does make a rather pleasant sound. Ditching the cat also means no flame represent... Helps when reversing at night you understand....
A few more pics I found:
Showing throttle linkage and idle stabiliser valve
Rear of the car:
Front:
A few more pics I found:
Showing throttle linkage and idle stabiliser valve
Rear of the car:
Front:
With GT2 Evo (or Group B/Ruf) cams and 3.4ltr, at 1.2 bar it will generate 650bhp (on a fresh build). I know of at least 15 (930 based) cars that are already doing that. Most are nearer 700bhp. It's more a question of how drivable you want it to be. I plan to rebuild the motor to run at 1.2 bar and detune to 1 bar which should give a very reliable 550 bhp (probably with turbo S cams rather than those mentioned above).
One thing I would say for people still on CIS and dyno runs near 400 bhp, if you have headers check your boost. There are a number of headers in the market at the moment that generate their performance by an inefficient wastegate pipe design i.e. boost creep. The extra boost might be desirable and as it will only normally be felt in 4th/5th you may be happy to live with it. However, your A/F ratio could be lean (it will be, CIS will not flow 400 bhp at less than an a lambda of 0.9 with out a micro fueller) and head temps will be up. I'm very glad I fitted a independent boost gauge in center console when I did. Oddly, the earlier 930 metering heads, without lambda control, will flow a lot more fuel. Also guys in the states will modify the heads to run up 550bhp if you really want to keep CIS.
I've also dyno'd, in my time, all the different exhaust combo's, headers on/off, cat bypass on/off, muffler on/off and mixtures there of, for those interested in the relative merits.
>> Edited by ultra violent on Thursday 11th November 09:29
One thing I would say for people still on CIS and dyno runs near 400 bhp, if you have headers check your boost. There are a number of headers in the market at the moment that generate their performance by an inefficient wastegate pipe design i.e. boost creep. The extra boost might be desirable and as it will only normally be felt in 4th/5th you may be happy to live with it. However, your A/F ratio could be lean (it will be, CIS will not flow 400 bhp at less than an a lambda of 0.9 with out a micro fueller) and head temps will be up. I'm very glad I fitted a independent boost gauge in center console when I did. Oddly, the earlier 930 metering heads, without lambda control, will flow a lot more fuel. Also guys in the states will modify the heads to run up 550bhp if you really want to keep CIS.
I've also dyno'd, in my time, all the different exhaust combo's, headers on/off, cat bypass on/off, muffler on/off and mixtures there of, for those interested in the relative merits.
>> Edited by ultra violent on Thursday 11th November 09:29
Oh, and one thing I should say. With all this talk of BHP, lets not forget Mother torque. Have a quick look in the back pages of an old EVO mag and see what sort of cars are generating more than 460 ft/lbs of torque and given the T2 is geared to 220mph it's unlikely you'll be resorting to BHP trying to redline 5th.
Who, am I kidding, or course you'll be trying, bugger
Who, am I kidding, or course you'll be trying, bugger
Thanks for the comments guys.
OK, a couple of points.
1) Interior will be RS style. Not sure whether to go for the carbon stuff or not though. Although, this comes a poor second to the mechanical stuff (just more interesting).
2) On the cost side, if i'm and everyone else, is honest, it would have been much more sensible to have traded in for another car. But there would have been zero fun in doing that. It just so happens by the time you get to 650bhp, it's actually cost effective. But again, who cares? Not me.
3) I actually think you could do a quite cost effective conversion on a 930. Say your target was 450bhp, it would probably come in only slightly more expensive than the standard micro fueller approach. Remember I had some body work done and bought parts that will only be used once we get above 550 bhp.
4)Motec is bloody great. I am, and will, spend more time messing with maps than actually driving the car. In fact on top of the list is a whole host of new sensors to monitor just about everything.
OK, a couple of points.
1) Interior will be RS style. Not sure whether to go for the carbon stuff or not though. Although, this comes a poor second to the mechanical stuff (just more interesting).
2) On the cost side, if i'm and everyone else, is honest, it would have been much more sensible to have traded in for another car. But there would have been zero fun in doing that. It just so happens by the time you get to 650bhp, it's actually cost effective. But again, who cares? Not me.
3) I actually think you could do a quite cost effective conversion on a 930. Say your target was 450bhp, it would probably come in only slightly more expensive than the standard micro fueller approach. Remember I had some body work done and bought parts that will only be used once we get above 550 bhp.
4)Motec is bloody great. I am, and will, spend more time messing with maps than actually driving the car. In fact on top of the list is a whole host of new sensors to monitor just about everything.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff