Discussion
9ff are developing a twin turbo 944!
pic 1
pic 2
pic 3
Would love to see/hear it, should be awesome,
Here is some info I have gleaned so far,
"We are finishing the car in the moment on the first dyno run we had around 370 HP. The standard gearbox has to changed so far that the connecting points have to be turned because the position the engine itself changed.
The boost is around 0.9 bar for the 370HP. I am very sure that the turbo lag is much smaller than with a single turbo. I got to say that the car drives very clean with an very nice boost curve."
Tony
given up on getting pics in (is there a size limit?) click links,
pic 1
pic 2
pic 3
Would love to see/hear it, should be awesome,
Here is some info I have gleaned so far,
"We are finishing the car in the moment on the first dyno run we had around 370 HP. The standard gearbox has to changed so far that the connecting points have to be turned because the position the engine itself changed.
The boost is around 0.9 bar for the 370HP. I am very sure that the turbo lag is much smaller than with a single turbo. I got to say that the car drives very clean with an very nice boost curve."
Tony
given up on getting pics in (is there a size limit?) click links,
Edited by UK952 on Thursday 13th July 11:43
Edited by UK952 on Thursday 13th July 11:53
The 968 Turbo S used an 8 valve head from the 944 turbo, and they only used one turbo (they were also over £75k new and very rare now).
Using two smaller turbos gives you faster spool and more capaicity for higher boost. Apparantly n the first dyno run it was running 0.9 bar and produced 370Hp, 944T's need to run over one bar, with bigger turbos to get to the same level. The torque curve should be impressive as well.
There is currently a hole in the bonnet, that photo came from rennlist rather than 9ff (where the others came from) so I think that may be more pre-production than they would like I do not doubt there is a plan to sort it though.
Tony
Using two smaller turbos gives you faster spool and more capaicity for higher boost. Apparantly n the first dyno run it was running 0.9 bar and produced 370Hp, 944T's need to run over one bar, with bigger turbos to get to the same level. The torque curve should be impressive as well.
There is currently a hole in the bonnet, that photo came from rennlist rather than 9ff (where the others came from) so I think that may be more pre-production than they would like I do not doubt there is a plan to sort it though.
Tony
Admittedly, it's a nice take on the 944, but it's a bit of an oddity. I doubt they will ever find another owner willing to spend that much money on an 'old' car, and it won't be offered as a kit or upgrade as it won't have a market.
The 968 Turbo S did at least have a racing purpose and the handful of homologation road cars were probably acceptable value at the time... considering a 965 Turbo 3.8 was selling for 74k and offered little more performance (from memory) and undoubtedly inferior handling.
Would a nicely specced 968CS (Mo30 etc.) and 9M supercharger package offer similar performance for less money, I wonder? If the 9FF TT comes in for less, then it would be tempting, but somehow even given a cheaper donor car I'd reckon the TT shenanigans and development would be wallet-bludgeoningly expensive.
The 968 Turbo S did at least have a racing purpose and the handful of homologation road cars were probably acceptable value at the time... considering a 965 Turbo 3.8 was selling for 74k and offered little more performance (from memory) and undoubtedly inferior handling.
Would a nicely specced 968CS (Mo30 etc.) and 9M supercharger package offer similar performance for less money, I wonder? If the 9FF TT comes in for less, then it would be tempting, but somehow even given a cheaper donor car I'd reckon the TT shenanigans and development would be wallet-bludgeoningly expensive.
The TT offers more area under the graph. Over 400Bhp flywheel has been achieved in the UK at weltmeister (which no doubt would equate to 400 at the wheels on some lesser dynos 
) with single turbo and 8 valves but not at low boost pressures and to a certain extent at the expense of low end figures (my own car makes circa 350BHP at 18 PSI) but it doesn't really fly until 3,500 rpm.
I expect they have more capacity to run at least 15PSI probably more, 0.9 bar is just over 13psi only a very slight increase on the standard car which only produces 250BHP.
The modifications (not an inclusive list) including an overhaul/ sump modification (believe it might have dry sump conversion)/ gearbox mods (the engine is more vertical so requires mounting adjustments), compression ratio change etc. is in the 17,000 to 20,000 euro area. Do 9m include any internal work / checks before bolting on the supercharger?
Whether anyone else will buy one - I dont know. I do know that the 944T still has devotees that are willing to sink large quantities of money into them and I am glad that one of the major tuners has chosen to demonstate their talent on the 944, the chassis deserves that level of power.
Anyway I thought it may interest some thats why I posted it
Tony
) with single turbo and 8 valves but not at low boost pressures and to a certain extent at the expense of low end figures (my own car makes circa 350BHP at 18 PSI) but it doesn't really fly until 3,500 rpm. I expect they have more capacity to run at least 15PSI probably more, 0.9 bar is just over 13psi only a very slight increase on the standard car which only produces 250BHP.
The modifications (not an inclusive list) including an overhaul/ sump modification (believe it might have dry sump conversion)/ gearbox mods (the engine is more vertical so requires mounting adjustments), compression ratio change etc. is in the 17,000 to 20,000 euro area. Do 9m include any internal work / checks before bolting on the supercharger?
Whether anyone else will buy one - I dont know. I do know that the 944T still has devotees that are willing to sink large quantities of money into them and I am glad that one of the major tuners has chosen to demonstate their talent on the 944, the chassis deserves that level of power.
Anyway I thought it may interest some thats why I posted it
Tony
UK952 said:
Over 400Bhp flywheel has been achieved in the UK at weltmeister (which no doubt would equate to 400 at the wheels on some lesser dynos ) with single turbo and 8 valves but not at low boost pressures and to a certain extent at the expense of low end figures (my own car makes circa 350BHP at 18 PSI) but it doesn't really fly until 3,500 rpm. Tony
) with single turbo and 8 valves but not at low boost pressures and to a certain extent at the expense of low end figures (my own car makes circa 350BHP at 18 PSI) but it doesn't really fly until 3,500 rpm. TonyYou should have had a test drive in Scotland, Tony.
The torque curve's looking good , but I might spec up one of Simon's roller turbos at some stage.
Rick.
The impressive thing concerning the 9ff car is that the 370bhp was achieved at a very low 0.9 bar of boost and it look like they have a lot more development to do before it's finished. The US 400 bhp + cars are running at very high boost levels but with a standard strength 2.5 engine and I bet they are pretty laggy lower down the rev range. The 9ff twin turbo setup will hopefully be very tractable.
My own car has a steel lined 3.2 litre engine that has been built to physically withstand 2 bar of boost and still be reliable. When I get it back I shall not be running anywhere near that level as I fear my gearbox would be deposited all over the road
but it will have a ball race turbocharger that has been specced for very quick spool up as opposed to outright power
As others have said, there are still a few of us watercooled enthusiast (lunatics ) prepared to put unreasonable amounts of cash into our playthings 
and it's great to see a respected tuner like 9ff looking along similar lines.
My own car has a steel lined 3.2 litre engine that has been built to physically withstand 2 bar of boost and still be reliable. When I get it back I shall not be running anywhere near that level as I fear my gearbox would be deposited all over the road
but it will have a ball race turbocharger that has been specced for very quick spool up as opposed to outright power As others have said, there are still a few of us watercooled enthusiast (lunatics
) prepared to put unreasonable amounts of cash into our playthings and it's great to see a respected tuner like 9ff looking along similar lines. nick_968 said:
I will be running a Motec m400 and the car is a 968.
Nick, I thought you were going with an Autronic ECU, why the change to Motec?
Andrews first 400bhp 944 was with the 2.8 stroker conversion and made 422bhp with a MAP kit from Wayne at Chip Wizards. The current 400bhp car still has a standard 2.5 engine and lots of Lindsey goodies but also has a custom MAP. My 3.2 engine should be running this week
Rick Cannells car also makes 400hp, and uses a lot of Lindsey Racing parts as well.
I changed to Motec for a few reasons, one being that is seems to be better made and superior in speed (32 bit) to the Autronic. However the factor that most influenced my decision was after speaking to Mark Shead about him doing the initial setup of the ecu, and his price for setting the car up on the road - £350 + VAT. For me that is way OTT - no dyno, and I have to risk my license doing WOT runs in 4th gear while he sets it up on his laptop from the passenger seat. Probably less than 1 hours work, as the Autronic does most of the setup for you, 2 hours at the most. I decided to spend his £350 on getting a Motec instead and swallow the dyno tuning costs to get it done properly.
Good luck with your 3.2
I changed to Motec for a few reasons, one being that is seems to be better made and superior in speed (32 bit) to the Autronic. However the factor that most influenced my decision was after speaking to Mark Shead about him doing the initial setup of the ecu, and his price for setting the car up on the road - £350 + VAT. For me that is way OTT - no dyno, and I have to risk my license doing WOT runs in 4th gear while he sets it up on his laptop from the passenger seat. Probably less than 1 hours work, as the Autronic does most of the setup for you, 2 hours at the most. I decided to spend his £350 on getting a Motec instead and swallow the dyno tuning costs to get it done properly.
Good luck with your 3.2
nick_968 said:
Promax did a 400+hp car ages ago, just copying Lindsay Racing from what I can tell.
Hi Nick,
We use the LR intake, but not much else. The secret to the 400+ (441.9bhp recorded on 18th May at ChipWizards Bosch Dyno) was our specially developed exhaust and also custom developed MAP system. This car recorded 401.9 bhp at WRC's dyno on 20th May with temporary (and untested) induction solution. All this was achieved with a standard 2.5 engine with no modifications other than to the cylinder head.
There's a little more to tuning the 944 Turbo than bolting on a few parts. ;-)
Regards,
Andrew
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff