RE: Biofuel timebomb
Discussion
so, in the name of saving the environment they want to junk old cars and force people to buy lots of new ones, while at the same time deforresting the planet and starving people in the 3rd world.
Seeing as biofuels are clearly so utterly toxic to the plant as is car manufacturing, one can only wonder just how wealthy the drivers behind this policy will become in coming years.
It's all a beautiful scam.
Seeing as biofuels are clearly so utterly toxic to the plant as is car manufacturing, one can only wonder just how wealthy the drivers behind this policy will become in coming years.
It's all a beautiful scam.
Merc said:
In summary, it means that all Mercedes-Benz cars can use E10 with the exception of:
- cars without a 3 way catalytic converter, ie all cars prior to and including 1985 (i.e. our Pagoda's)
- cars with a carburettor
- 4 cylinder CGI cars of the first generation (C200CGI, CLK200CGI t/m 2005)
- AMG cars or Maybach cars
This sounds like cleverly worded scary mary b- cars without a 3 way catalytic converter, ie all cars prior to and including 1985 (i.e. our Pagoda's)
- cars with a carburettor
- 4 cylinder CGI cars of the first generation (C200CGI, CLK200CGI t/m 2005)
- AMG cars or Maybach cars
ks! Big scary words from a big scary manufacturer - let's read between them shall we?Having read this and a few other threads ISTM that there are two fundamental problems with biofuel*:- it's corrosive and more of it is required to produce the same power.
As far as the four "merc" points above are concerned.
1. You don't need a cat to run biofuel. They're just using that as a proxy for all their cars built befor '85. "3 way catalytic converter" is an irrelevance.
2. Carburettors are no bar to biofuel. One example of each type of carburettored car will need retuning. The jets involved can then be sold as a kit for all other examples of the same car!
3. CGI? that's fillums isn't it?
4. Why not these models?
The corrosive nature of biofuel means that some vehicles will need some parts replacing. Well done the EU for introducing something aimed at making fuel systems leak! It'll only take a few hundred cars torching themselves into the atmosphere to undo all the EU's "good" work.
In points 2,3 and 4 above, the hapless owner will probably, eventually, occasionally, have to replace a few parts when they start to leak. It's like the swap from leaded (good) to unleaded (weasel piss). The "experts" would have you believe that you absolutely must have hardened valve seats fitted (even to ali heads FFS) before the first thimblefull of weasel water went into the tank. Like the whole Y2K IT thing, if you wait 'til after the event you'll be witness to a tempest in a hot, infused leaf, beverage container!
I certainly won't be taking any up front remedial action either on my (P&J) XE engined Westfield or 'er indoors' k-series Elise.
* there are actually three problems. The third is that it seems to be diverting food away from starving people and making it into fuel - morality shmorality!!
Edited by cmsapms on Tuesday 20th December 15:31
goron59 said:
Buff Mchugelarge said:
elephantstone said:
More pain.
Drop the price of fuel for a year first so we can all drive v8's and then do all this eco st. At 21 im worried that ill never be able to afford a nice big v8..
I know how ya feel and I'm 30!, Drop the price of fuel for a year first so we can all drive v8's and then do all this eco s
t. At 21 im worried that ill never be able to afford a nice big v8..It seems by the time we're able to buy,run and insure anything really fast, It'll all be gone.
The sole play things of the rich..
I own a 1983 944 and a 1968 midget (with a unleaded slightly modded head) the word polymer wasn't in common use when it was built so I reckon it'll be okay the Porsche i'm not so sure about.
But it seems a good idea to grow fuel crops in starving 3rd world countries that still produce polluting nasty CO2s and force us to buy lithium powered eco-boxes. Hope our government's XJ's are okay on E10.
As a owner of a Aprilia i'll hazzard a guess this'll be bad news for a lot of bikes as well....
But it seems a good idea to grow fuel crops in starving 3rd world countries that still produce polluting nasty CO2s and force us to buy lithium powered eco-boxes. Hope our government's XJ's are okay on E10.
As a owner of a Aprilia i'll hazzard a guess this'll be bad news for a lot of bikes as well....
Or we could use the fuel that Diesel supposedly intended his engine to run on..... Peanuts. Cheap and easy to grow and yields quite a high percentage of oil.
Everything is finite, so take your pick.
There isn't one answer, that's the beauty of it. We need a variety of fuels to spread the load.
Everything is finite, so take your pick.
There isn't one answer, that's the beauty of it. We need a variety of fuels to spread the load.
bosscerbera said:
Based on the vast experience of MX5dom you claimed: "...it's a sensationalist story which has got a lot of you whipped up into a frenzy for no real reason."
One might less sensationally conclude:
- Mazda is using biofuel resistant materials (by more luck than judgement in older vehicles)
- MX5s are being regularly used (the fuel does not languish in the tank for long periods)
- The ethanol content from refill to refill is not consistent (which is why to meet a target of 10%, higher (and lower) % may be found at the pumps)
Something else you might like to consider is that older cars often have 'pattern' parts fitted. OEM data may not apply - material choice is an easy corner to cut, or upgrade in the performance aftermarket.
Ethanol is hygroscopic and corrosive. To coin a phrase, I am basing my point on experience.
We'll agree to disagree then One might less sensationally conclude:
- Mazda is using biofuel resistant materials (by more luck than judgement in older vehicles)
- MX5s are being regularly used (the fuel does not languish in the tank for long periods)
- The ethanol content from refill to refill is not consistent (which is why to meet a target of 10%, higher (and lower) % may be found at the pumps)
Something else you might like to consider is that older cars often have 'pattern' parts fitted. OEM data may not apply - material choice is an easy corner to cut, or upgrade in the performance aftermarket.
Ethanol is hygroscopic and corrosive. To coin a phrase, I am basing my point on experience.
You carry on stressing, I'll finish my brew in peace.
cmsapms said:
The corrosive nature of biofuel means that some vehicles will need some parts replacing. Well done the EU for introducing something aimed at making fuel systems leak! It'll only take a few hundred cars torching themselves into the atmosphere to undo all the EU's "good" work.
In points 2,3 and 4 above, the hapless owner will probably, eventually, occasionally, have to replace a few parts when they start to leak. It's like the swap from leaded (good) to unleaded (weasel piss). The "experts" would have you believe that you absolutely must have hardened valve seats fitted (even to ali heads FFS) before the first thimblefull of weasel water went into the tank. Like the whole Y2K IT thing, if you wait 'til after the event you'll be witness to a tempest in a hot, infused leaf, beverage container!
I certainly won't be taking any up front remedial action either on my (P&J) XE engined Westfield or 'er indoors' k-series Elise.
* there are actually three problems. The third is that it seems to be diverting food away from starving people and making it into fuel - morality shmorality!!
Seems I've found someone else who think's it's a mountain out of a molehill In points 2,3 and 4 above, the hapless owner will probably, eventually, occasionally, have to replace a few parts when they start to leak. It's like the swap from leaded (good) to unleaded (weasel piss). The "experts" would have you believe that you absolutely must have hardened valve seats fitted (even to ali heads FFS) before the first thimblefull of weasel water went into the tank. Like the whole Y2K IT thing, if you wait 'til after the event you'll be witness to a tempest in a hot, infused leaf, beverage container!
I certainly won't be taking any up front remedial action either on my (P&J) XE engined Westfield or 'er indoors' k-series Elise.
* there are actually three problems. The third is that it seems to be diverting food away from starving people and making it into fuel - morality shmorality!!
Edited by cmsapms on Tuesday 20th December 15:31
cmsapms said:
This sounds like cleverly worded scary mary bks! Big scary words from a big scary manufacturer - let's read between them shall we?
Having read this and a few other threads ISTM that there are two fundamental problems with biofuel*:- it's corrosive and more of it is required to produce the same power.
As far as the four "merc" points above are concerned.
1. You don't need a cat to run biofuel. They're just using that as a proxy for all their cars built befor '85. "3 way catalytic converter" is an irrelevance.
2. Carburettors are no bar to biofuel. Each example of a carburettored car will need retuning. The jets involved can then be sold as a kit.
3. CGI? that's fillums isn't it?
4. Why not these models?
The corrosive nature of biofuel means that some vehicles will need some parts replacing. Well done the EU for introducing something aimed at making fuel systems leak! It'll only take a few hundred cars torching themselves into the atmosphere to undo all the EU's "good" work.
In points 2,3 and 4 above, the hapless owner will probably, eventually, occasionally, have to replace a few parts when they start to leak. It's like the swap from leaded (good) to unleaded (weasel piss). The "experts" would have you believe that you absolutely must have hardened valve seats fitted (even to ali heads FFS) before the first thimblefull of weasel water went into the tank. Like the whole Y2K IT thing, if you wait 'til after the event you'll be witness to a tempest in a hot infused leaf beverage container!
I certainly won't be taking any up front remedial action either on my (P&J) XE engined Westfield or 'er indoor's k-series Elise.
* there are actually three problems. The third is that it seems to be diverting food away from starving people and making it into fuel - morality shmorality!!
My bet for points 1 and 2 are that it's to expensive for the manufacturer to test all the old cars for compatibility. And why should they make tests on these cars when they are basically designed for leaded fuel (except cat engines), so the owners of these few cars left on the road should be able to pay for the premium fuel. But if they tell the old cars are fine with E10 and something happens, there will be a massive que to claim new engines and all sort of things.ks! Big scary words from a big scary manufacturer - let's read between them shall we?Having read this and a few other threads ISTM that there are two fundamental problems with biofuel*:- it's corrosive and more of it is required to produce the same power.
As far as the four "merc" points above are concerned.
1. You don't need a cat to run biofuel. They're just using that as a proxy for all their cars built befor '85. "3 way catalytic converter" is an irrelevance.
2. Carburettors are no bar to biofuel. Each example of a carburettored car will need retuning. The jets involved can then be sold as a kit.
3. CGI? that's fillums isn't it?
4. Why not these models?
The corrosive nature of biofuel means that some vehicles will need some parts replacing. Well done the EU for introducing something aimed at making fuel systems leak! It'll only take a few hundred cars torching themselves into the atmosphere to undo all the EU's "good" work.
In points 2,3 and 4 above, the hapless owner will probably, eventually, occasionally, have to replace a few parts when they start to leak. It's like the swap from leaded (good) to unleaded (weasel piss). The "experts" would have you believe that you absolutely must have hardened valve seats fitted (even to ali heads FFS) before the first thimblefull of weasel water went into the tank. Like the whole Y2K IT thing, if you wait 'til after the event you'll be witness to a tempest in a hot infused leaf beverage container!
I certainly won't be taking any up front remedial action either on my (P&J) XE engined Westfield or 'er indoor's k-series Elise.
* there are actually three problems. The third is that it seems to be diverting food away from starving people and making it into fuel - morality shmorality!!
For point 3, the injectors are the main problems. The same dicussion was in Germany one year ago and they tried to run Fuel injectors with E10 and they failed after simulated 30K kilometers.
To point 4, have you ever thought that they could be designed to use hegher octane fuel anyway. The E10 is only for ROZ95 and i guess that AMG-engines will need ROZ98 to run properly, but feel free to correct me.
In general I'm a little surprised that the fuel industry is doing the same 'mistake'. They misinform people that they are going to boycot E10 and then give a massive hike for the regular fuel claiming that they have to pay a fine because they are not selling enough of the E10.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supporter of this 'eco-fuel', because when you check the background of all this you'll see that it will produce more CO2 than the regular fuel.
Niffty951 said:
I wouldn't worry. There are so few parts and access is so easy to do the work yourself that when parts do fail it will be nearly cost free to keep it going/upgrade to different rubber/gasket grades etc (or even not bother and replace periodically).
I think it will create far more of a problem for more complex cars where changing the fuel system, injectors, gaskets etc will be a big/costly job.
You mean like my DB7 Vantage, twelve of everything crammed into a space intended for six cylinders. A pipe come of the EGR system and that took half a day to fix because, whilst you see it, you couldn't get anywhere near it because of all of the gubins in the way.I think it will create far more of a problem for more complex cars where changing the fuel system, injectors, gaskets etc will be a big/costly job.
cmsapms said:
3. CGI? that's fillums isn't it?
4. Why not these models?
3. The CGI Mercedes models are basically direct injection. Apologies if you knew that and were taking the Michael.4. Why not these models?
4. I have a suspicion that all AMG and Maybach products have been included as they are expensive, premium items and Mercedes do not want to take any risks by saying "Oh your E63 should be ok" when really, they are unsure as is most of the motor industry. So a blanket statement seems the safest bet.
I also wonder if any damage/accelerated wear occurs to any of the metal components in the engine. I work at NGK and I know that the spark plugs fitted to a car designed to run on E85 (various Ford/Volvo FFV models) are Iridium/long life types. As opposed to standard/Platinum types for the 'normal' petrol equivalent.
Pierscoe1 said:
great...
so now, along with the death of decent new cars, via hybrid nonsense (waits for the flaming), small capacity turbo'd motors instead of proper engines (waits for more flames), and stop-start, self-parking, grill-closing focuses, now old cars (and not even actually-old) are going to be killed off too!
any VW-group car up to 2006 might become difficult to find fuel for over the next few years?!?!?!? WTF? how can they get away with that?
...runs off to the classifieds to buy a Monaro quick-fast, before anything remotely fun is completely outlawed!
and seeing as this is all thanks to good-old EU regs...
DIE EUROPE DIE! IN A BIG BALL OF CO2-PRODUCING FLAMES!!!!!!
(waits for some extra flaming...)
+1so now, along with the death of decent new cars, via hybrid nonsense (waits for the flaming), small capacity turbo'd motors instead of proper engines (waits for more flames), and stop-start, self-parking, grill-closing focuses, now old cars (and not even actually-old) are going to be killed off too!
any VW-group car up to 2006 might become difficult to find fuel for over the next few years?!?!?!? WTF? how can they get away with that?
...runs off to the classifieds to buy a Monaro quick-fast, before anything remotely fun is completely outlawed!
and seeing as this is all thanks to good-old EU regs...
DIE EUROPE DIE! IN A BIG BALL OF CO2-PRODUCING FLAMES!!!!!!
(waits for some extra flaming...)
Edited by Pierscoe1 on Tuesday 20th December 08:43
Also what is the story for a rather old yam 85hp 2 stroke outboard??
and does the fact that there are no hyundias on the list meen they are all safe or no one cares, if its the later does anybody know about them - i havean 8nyear old getz
Thanks ben
Interesting enough, i happened upon a copy of this months Motor Boat and Yachting today during a tea break at work and there is an article in there on BioFuel and its harmful nature on engines (obviously boat derivatives)
Over 300hr tests on outboards (4 stroke), they noticed increased engine wear and same test on inboards noticed increased engine wear over standard diesel but not as high as the petrol outboard engine wear!
We will never see a viable alternative to petrol and diesel until we have almost none left! Call it a conspiracy theory if you will, but can you seriously imagine BP, Shell or whoever would let any such alternative exist whilst they can make billions every day from oil!!
Over 300hr tests on outboards (4 stroke), they noticed increased engine wear and same test on inboards noticed increased engine wear over standard diesel but not as high as the petrol outboard engine wear!
We will never see a viable alternative to petrol and diesel until we have almost none left! Call it a conspiracy theory if you will, but can you seriously imagine BP, Shell or whoever would let any such alternative exist whilst they can make billions every day from oil!!
So, does anyone out there know then how this'll effect my 'older car'? When i say old i mean that it's still fairly young at 60 years old.
I'm currently using a led replacement canister mounted in the fuel line to already counter act the more modern led free fuels and i've read on here that it can spell trouble for vehicles that have fuel sitting in the tank for a while. Well, i might not drive the car for up to 6 months sometimes.
I'm currently using a led replacement canister mounted in the fuel line to already counter act the more modern led free fuels and i've read on here that it can spell trouble for vehicles that have fuel sitting in the tank for a while. Well, i might not drive the car for up to 6 months sometimes.
Richyvrlimited said:
Well 15 cars isn't really a lot to cater for, and the country is much larger than London, (not that Londoners notice)...
How do you extract hydrogen from salt water, store and transport it around the county to supply the entire nation with enough fuel? It's a much more inefficient process than extracting oil out of the ground and processing it into petrol/diesel.
You don't you extract it from algae with certain types having a huge hydrogen content (which also conversely gives off oxygen as it grows), it's funny what you come across when reading IT tech websites (this little bit of info came from Anandtech's daily tech news a while ago).How do you extract hydrogen from salt water, store and transport it around the county to supply the entire nation with enough fuel? It's a much more inefficient process than extracting oil out of the ground and processing it into petrol/diesel.
It will be interesting to see how many of the cars listed on the 'won't run on e10' start appearing in auction houses come the New Year at bargain prices.
What hasn't been mentioned is if you own one of these possibly condemned vehicles what sort of price will you get for part exchange to replace with a E10 compatible vehicle. The PX can't really be sold on as the dealer won't want any comeback should the E10 corrosion attack.Expect the CAP, Parkers and Glasses guides to start reflecting this in used values, once this issue becomes common knowledge to the masses.
Remember what Nikasil did for certain BMW and Jaguar values 10 years ago.
What hasn't been mentioned is if you own one of these possibly condemned vehicles what sort of price will you get for part exchange to replace with a E10 compatible vehicle. The PX can't really be sold on as the dealer won't want any comeback should the E10 corrosion attack.Expect the CAP, Parkers and Glasses guides to start reflecting this in used values, once this issue becomes common knowledge to the masses.
Remember what Nikasil did for certain BMW and Jaguar values 10 years ago.
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