RE: Biofuel timebomb
Discussion
elephantstone said:
More pain.
Drop the price of fuel for a year first so we can all drive v8's and then do all this eco s
t. At 21 im worried that ill never be able to afford a nice big v8..
Buy shares now in a Brazilian ethanol producer and you'll be able to afford one in the future.Drop the price of fuel for a year first so we can all drive v8's and then do all this eco s
t. At 21 im worried that ill never be able to afford a nice big v8.."Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel and the world's largest exporter."
http://idbdocs.iadb.org/wsdocs/getdocument.aspx?do...
"LOOKING FORWARD TO 2020
The development of the Brazilian ethanol industry through the ProAlcóol program has
positioned Brazil as the global leader in the production of ethanol from sugarcane and
are looking to the Brazilian model as they establish their own industries."
Some bio-fuels are decidedly "Prius-like" in their green credentials IMO.
However, not all are. The UK's largest bio-ethanol plant, Ensus, uses wheat grown for animal feed. The ethanol is made from the starch in the wheat, so this is extracted through an industrial process which leaves all the other component parts (esp protein) of the wheat untouched. The wheat (minus the starch) is sold on as animal feed, with no loss of nutritional value to the animals.
I think the Vivergo (sp?) plant in Hull about to come on-line has the same input/output streams.
However, not all are. The UK's largest bio-ethanol plant, Ensus, uses wheat grown for animal feed. The ethanol is made from the starch in the wheat, so this is extracted through an industrial process which leaves all the other component parts (esp protein) of the wheat untouched. The wheat (minus the starch) is sold on as animal feed, with no loss of nutritional value to the animals.
I think the Vivergo (sp?) plant in Hull about to come on-line has the same input/output streams.
Agent Orange said:
Wheelie in the Stars by Nicholas Fisk 1976
It's so long since I read it, but that sounds similar to one I read over 30 years ago.Can't remember much of it now, but it had a Vincent HRD in it, and went on about their tyres melting or something - assuming it's the same book, as the name is not familiar.
burriana said:
Oh, surprisingly Ferrari does not seem to be on the list. That'll be mine stuffed then!
Pain in the @ss. I normally fill mine up on bog standard unleaded. Looks like I will have to pay through the teeth for the super dooper V.Power type stuff
I also quite frequently fill up at Sainsbury's but, having read the article I might stop that!
Can we just leave the EU please? I have yet to see any real benefits since we joined, apart from it's a bit quicker to get into France on the way to Le mans.
I'm stuffed too Pain in the @ss. I normally fill mine up on bog standard unleaded. Looks like I will have to pay through the teeth for the super dooper V.Power type stuff
I also quite frequently fill up at Sainsbury's but, having read the article I might stop that!
Can we just leave the EU please? I have yet to see any real benefits since we joined, apart from it's a bit quicker to get into France on the way to Le mans.
Pleased I'm not the only one that is admitting to using Supermarket bog standard fuel rather than the All Singing, All Dancing 'good' stuff
although she does get Shell most of the time, it is very rarely V Power.Agreed completely about leaving the EU, I still don't know why we joined in the first place!
My girlfriend's 2010 A5 3.0 Tdi Audi says "Nicht fur Bio-fuel" inside the filler cap.
Wots all that about then ? ???????
It's german, virtually new, a popular make, and it can't take biofuel ? ????
Summat wrong here shurely ?
Ps. One last question. Is there anything we do to convert our 993s ?
Wots all that about then ? ???????
It's german, virtually new, a popular make, and it can't take biofuel ? ????
Summat wrong here shurely ?
Ps. One last question. Is there anything we do to convert our 993s ?
Hi everybody, long time lurcher, frst time poster.
Thought I'd share my opinion on this having owned a flexifuel car (and also being an engineer).
2 years ago I bought myself a renault clio (1.2, hardly PH material) that was both petrol and E85 compatible. Ethanol contains a lower energy density than petrol so the fuel consumption of the car increases when running on E85. It does however have a higher octane rating although this is pretty useless without extra compression.
If you were to run E85 in an engine with a nice high compression ratio, you can get a nice amount of power out of it without any knocking, apparently it's good in turbocharged engines or the same reason. An engine designed only to run on E85 can't run on petrol (if such an engine were to exist). Flexi fuel engines and moving to the point at hand using small amounts of ethanol in petrol actually loses your engine power due to the lower energy density in it, yet we're not seeing the savings at the pumps!
Another reason we should, but don't, see the savings at the pumps is that as was said before, a lot of it is biproduct of something,animal feed in the UK or chees making in Ireland.
I'm not sure of the effects on metals of the tops of my head, but rubber seals and pipes become dehydrated and crack with alcohol contact in the same way you used to dry out your spots with vodka as a teenager.
Finally, the last thing that grinds my gears is that they call it clean fuel and don't say that there's ethanol in it!
Moral of the story, we need high compression turbo engines running on E85 that are considered green!
Rant over. Sorry about that.
Thought I'd share my opinion on this having owned a flexifuel car (and also being an engineer).
2 years ago I bought myself a renault clio (1.2, hardly PH material) that was both petrol and E85 compatible. Ethanol contains a lower energy density than petrol so the fuel consumption of the car increases when running on E85. It does however have a higher octane rating although this is pretty useless without extra compression.
If you were to run E85 in an engine with a nice high compression ratio, you can get a nice amount of power out of it without any knocking, apparently it's good in turbocharged engines or the same reason. An engine designed only to run on E85 can't run on petrol (if such an engine were to exist). Flexi fuel engines and moving to the point at hand using small amounts of ethanol in petrol actually loses your engine power due to the lower energy density in it, yet we're not seeing the savings at the pumps!
Another reason we should, but don't, see the savings at the pumps is that as was said before, a lot of it is biproduct of something,animal feed in the UK or chees making in Ireland.
I'm not sure of the effects on metals of the tops of my head, but rubber seals and pipes become dehydrated and crack with alcohol contact in the same way you used to dry out your spots with vodka as a teenager.
Finally, the last thing that grinds my gears is that they call it clean fuel and don't say that there's ethanol in it!
Moral of the story, we need high compression turbo engines running on E85 that are considered green!
Rant over. Sorry about that.
Catpee said:
My girlfriend's 2010 A5 3.0 Tdi Audi says "Nicht fur Bio-fuel" inside the filler cap.
Wots all that about then ? ???????
It's german, virtually new, a popular make, and it can't take biofuel ? ????
Summat wrong here shurely ?
Ps. One last question. Is there anything we do to convert our 993s ?
The kerfuffle is about biofuel in petrol, not diesel.Wots all that about then ? ???????
It's german, virtually new, a popular make, and it can't take biofuel ? ????
Summat wrong here shurely ?
Ps. One last question. Is there anything we do to convert our 993s ?
Richyvrlimited said:
bosscerbera said:
That's a bold statement.
Not really, it's based on experience of other MX5 owners over the world. It's not effected the car one iota.Again it's a sensationalist story which has got a lot of you whipped up into a frenzy for no real reason.
JudgeMental said:
According to this my car (a 1999 Peugeot 306) can run on E10, but according to the PH link only cars from 2000 onwards can 
Looking beyond cars, where is the bio part of the fuel coming from. If it has to be grown somewhere, it cannot all be waste, so land will be need, on which food crops could be grown. Food cost are going up, now we are going to take away land just to grow fuel! Food is less important than powering your car?
I read about the animal feed system, what a great way to do this. Saddly I fear this will not be the main way this will be done. I fear land will be taken away from growing food and use to grow fuel. I has already happen.
I read about the animal feed system, what a great way to do this. Saddly I fear this will not be the main way this will be done. I fear land will be taken away from growing food and use to grow fuel. I has already happen.
Edited by KDIcarmad on Tuesday 20th December 12:05
mmm-five said:
Agent Orange said:
Wheelie in the Stars by Nicholas Fisk 1976
It's so long since I read it, but that sounds similar to one I read over 30 years ago.Can't remember much of it now, but it had a Vincent HRD in it, and went on about their tyres melting or something - assuming it's the same book, as the name is not familiar.
Blast from the past. Ha small world.
Yes rings a bell. Petrol was banned but they smuggled the bike and petrol and were able to ride the bike whilst everyone slept.
Kieron
On a related note.
What would the angle be for liability?
If the EU are making all these changes in law that could potentially result in peoples cars being rendered obsolete, surely they have a duty to provide compensation or at least make sure people are able to keep using them for the life of the car without modification (phase the introduction in over time for example)?
If a manufacturer states that a vehicle is not suitable for E10 fuel then regardless of anecdotal evidence, it isnt suitable! It appears that some manufacturers have only recently made the appropriate changes (and some havent at all, just checked the manual of my brand new Honda CBR600F and it states "do not use biofuel" ..... which is worrying!).
It isnt unreasonable to state that they cannot "force" people to dispose or have to modify of a vehicle within its reasonable lifetime (you would have to prove what was the average life of a vehicle though). If they do then surely they need to compensate people for the financial impact.
Im not a big fan of suing, but there might be a case here. At the very least it might make them realise that there are consequences to their actions!
What would the angle be for liability?
If the EU are making all these changes in law that could potentially result in peoples cars being rendered obsolete, surely they have a duty to provide compensation or at least make sure people are able to keep using them for the life of the car without modification (phase the introduction in over time for example)?
If a manufacturer states that a vehicle is not suitable for E10 fuel then regardless of anecdotal evidence, it isnt suitable! It appears that some manufacturers have only recently made the appropriate changes (and some havent at all, just checked the manual of my brand new Honda CBR600F and it states "do not use biofuel" ..... which is worrying!).
It isnt unreasonable to state that they cannot "force" people to dispose or have to modify of a vehicle within its reasonable lifetime (you would have to prove what was the average life of a vehicle though). If they do then surely they need to compensate people for the financial impact.
Im not a big fan of suing, but there might be a case here. At the very least it might make them realise that there are consequences to their actions!
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