RE: Road charges kill towns: survey
Wednesday 14th March 2007
Charges will drive people awayImposing a congestion charge in a town will drive people away, according to a recent survey.
Road charges kill towns: survey
Extra costs make people shop elsewhere
Charges will drive people away
One third of shoppers would drive to a different town or city centre to shop if a £5 congestion charge were introduced, reckoned the RAC Foundation’s director at the Association of Town Centre Management annual conference.
The figures come from a report “Motoring towards 2050: Shopping and Transport Policy” launched by the RAC Foundation and British Retail Consortium. The report reveals opinion data from GfK/NOP showing that shoppers are very cautious about road pricing schemes being considered by several towns and cities as part of the Government’s Transport Innovation Fund.
The RAC Foundation survey showed that:
- 31 per cent would drive to a different destination if a £5 charge were introduced to drive into their local town or city centre shops.
- 27 per cent would choose to travel by different means.
- 21 per cent would make the journey less often.
In order to stop one third of shoppers voting with their wheels and driving further to other destinations the RAC Foundation is urging town centre managers to consider lower off-peak congestion charges or no off-peak charges together with better parking provision.
The ACTM conference heard:
- 70 per cent of shoppers arrive by car
- Those without a car travel by car for a third of their shopping trips, by getting lifts from friends or taking taxis.
- 54 per cent have experienced congested roads when shopping.
- On average we make a trip to the shops every other day.
- Twice a week we go for personal business (such as hairdressers, dry cleaners etc).
- The average number of shopping trips has fallen 13 per cent over past 10 years. The average length of trips has increased by over 10 per cent
- Buses account for six per cent of all trips but nearly 30 per cent of bus trips are for shopping.
The car has become the shopping trolley of choice due to its convenience (63 per cent), carryability (56 per cent), and distances travelled (47 per cent), found the survey. Respondents also felt the car was cheaper than alternatives and safer. However people are often unaware of costs and availability of public transport. Others favoured the car as it allows for chained trips, for example visiting the shops on the way back from work before going to the gym.
While Internet shopping is still growing fast, the study found that almost 80 per cent of Internet shoppers still want to see products in a shop. This does not necessarily generate more car trips as the visit may be part of a trip chain or as they will not have to carry home heavy goods some may be more inclined to use pubic transport.
At the conference, King said that:
- A long-term vision is essential for a town’s vitality. The consequences of traffic management changes on the vitality of retail must be considered.
- Cars can’t be wished away – not even with Internet shopping – so they must be planned for. 60 per cent of shopping trips and 80 per cent of shopping mileage is done by car.
- Parking is a service not a source of revenue - and should be designed accordingly. 44 per cent shoppers could not find a space when out shopping in the last 12 months.
- Planning needs to reflect the realities of how people live – retail deserts with miles of houses and no local shops are dire. Each housing estate should have good transport links to at least one supermarket.
King said: "Good transport links – for cars and public transport - are vital for successful retail and successful retail is vital if town and city centres are to remain prosperous and attractive. Too many local authorities fall into the trap of looking at traffic and transport in isolation from the wider needs of the area. Minor changes such as parking controls or major changes such as congestion charging can ruin retail if not well planned. Cars are the shopping trolley of convenience but motorists will vote with their wheels if too many restrictions are brought in."
You could easily see how towns might compete with each other by lowering congestion charges to attract shoppers from larger nearby conurbations....
Discussion
Nobody is happy in this fooking country are they? What do they want us to do, goto local towns and support local business? (my prefered option). Or shut the local town shops and go to the likes of Tesco? but there again it would be Tesco's fault the local shops are closing.
Shal we go back to living in caves?
On second thoughts a tax on holes would be introduced..
And then there's the interent. I dont like doing shopping on line for 2 reasons.
I like to see what i am buying
and I dont like using my credit card/debit card on line
Shal we go back to living in caves?
On second thoughts a tax on holes would be introduced..
And then there's the interent. I dont like doing shopping on line for 2 reasons.
I like to see what i am buying
and I dont like using my credit card/debit card on line
All this talk of paying to drive into towns does really gets on my tits. I live in Worcester, and when I wanna go shopping in the Bull Ring, I get in my car and drive to the centre of Brum [the second biggest city] and never get any problems with traffic, and this is a Saturday!!!
When I was a student I lived in Birmingham for 3 years, and although I got a train into Uni [in the centre of town] that was more to do with parking, not the traffic. On the days I did decide to drive in, congestion was never over the top - so I had to sit in a bit of traffic every now and then, big deal!!!
All I know is I would definetly go shopping less if I had to pay a congestion charge - and I hate catching buses [I'm 6'6", bus seats are to small], and trains aint reliable enough. Let me enjoy the easy of use of my car for god sake.
When I was a student I lived in Birmingham for 3 years, and although I got a train into Uni [in the centre of town] that was more to do with parking, not the traffic. On the days I did decide to drive in, congestion was never over the top - so I had to sit in a bit of traffic every now and then, big deal!!!
All I know is I would definetly go shopping less if I had to pay a congestion charge - and I hate catching buses [I'm 6'6", bus seats are to small], and trains aint reliable enough. Let me enjoy the easy of use of my car for god sake.
Wow, they only just worked that out?
I just go where it's convenient, and paying to park, paying to enter and then paying extra in shops to start with is already a joke. Internet = better = crap for shops/cities.
When will councils realise they are just costing business out of their towns and cities? It's like backwards growth! Are they thick?
You provide benefits FOR customers with money to burn, not take the bloody money away from them for wanting to spend it in your area
Dave
I just go where it's convenient, and paying to park, paying to enter and then paying extra in shops to start with is already a joke. Internet = better = crap for shops/cities.
When will councils realise they are just costing business out of their towns and cities? It's like backwards growth! Are they thick?
You provide benefits FOR customers with money to burn, not take the bloody money away from them for wanting to spend it in your area
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 14th March 13:17
Basically we cant win because they will put this in place even if we say we dont want it, they always do. This is more like a Dictatorship!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway they will put in congestion areas all the shops will move further out of the towns (out of the congestion areas) and then the congestion areas get bigger and bigger and bigger.
Tax Tax Tax, that seems to be all our governments want to do to us.
This is nearly as bad as the Carbon emmisions causing global warning propaganda......... The government will tax the crap out of us even though it will make sod all difference to the environment as the extra taxes will not go to Green initiatives, just like the congestion charge will not go towards public transport. It just goes towards Gordon Browns F
K off great black hole he has put in the countries economy.
Anyway they will put in congestion areas all the shops will move further out of the towns (out of the congestion areas) and then the congestion areas get bigger and bigger and bigger.
Tax Tax Tax, that seems to be all our governments want to do to us.
This is nearly as bad as the Carbon emmisions causing global warning propaganda......... The government will tax the crap out of us even though it will make sod all difference to the environment as the extra taxes will not go to Green initiatives, just like the congestion charge will not go towards public transport. It just goes towards Gordon Browns F
K off great black hole he has put in the countries economy. Well one of the towns under consideration is Shrewsbury. Whether the council agree's with the idea or not, Govenment is tying funding for a Western bypass to the introduction of congestion charging.
The whole thing is truly crazy. Shrewsbury does not have a big congestion problem. Further the council is pushing this as a way to avoid having people drive through the town to travel North/South. I would love to see the research on the number of people who actually do that. The existing Eastern bypass is pretty good, and if the Western one is built the justification for charging goes away. But by casting it this way they shortcut the protests of retailers.
So what I see happening is exactly what this survey indicates. People won't go into the town centre. They go to the retail parks on the outskirts. And there you go, another dead town centre.
UK
The whole thing is truly crazy. Shrewsbury does not have a big congestion problem. Further the council is pushing this as a way to avoid having people drive through the town to travel North/South. I would love to see the research on the number of people who actually do that. The existing Eastern bypass is pretty good, and if the Western one is built the justification for charging goes away. But by casting it this way they shortcut the protests of retailers.
So what I see happening is exactly what this survey indicates. People won't go into the town centre. They go to the retail parks on the outskirts. And there you go, another dead town centre.
UK
Edited by ukmountie on Wednesday 14th March 14:09
Edited by ukmountie on Wednesday 14th March 14:10
Edited by ukmountie on Wednesday 14th March 14:12
bunglist said:
The government will tax the crap out of us even though it will make sod all difference
But it will make a difference. I've already cut spending on many items, and happily tell service providers why, because I can't afford their services in the face of increased taxation.
When the economy crashes because there is no growth or spending we can only point one way... to the idiotic government who seem to think the public have a never ending supply of money.
Dave
Peter Ward said:
When towns impose congestion charges and people go to out-of-town shopping centres, then charges will be imposed on them as well. Maybe parking, or congestion, or something. Either way, towns will make sure they don't lose out. These taxation people aren't stupid, you know!
HM Govery are already talking of enforcing parking charges on out-of-town shopping centres. If/when this happens, I shall be investing my hard-earned in barrels of gunpowder.
There was a story in the local Winchester paper last week (or the week before) that the council are expecting a >£120K shortfall because they forgot to budget for the loss of income after closing a carpark. I can only begin to image how that planning meeting went:
Councillor 1) We need to be greener.
Councillor 2) Lets blame car users for everything.
Councillor 1) Can we stop them driving into the city?
Councillor 2) Lets make it harder for them to park.
Councillor 1) How about closing a car park.
Councillor 2) Great idea, I'll do it tomorrow.
They don't care about loss of local business. They don't care about inconvienience to voters. They don't care about the environment because like all my neighbours, we now drive 3 times the distance to a different town.
We're now being told our council tax will have to go up to cover the shortfall.
Councillor 1) We need to be greener.
Councillor 2) Lets blame car users for everything.
Councillor 1) Can we stop them driving into the city?
Councillor 2) Lets make it harder for them to park.
Councillor 1) How about closing a car park.
Councillor 2) Great idea, I'll do it tomorrow.
They don't care about loss of local business. They don't care about inconvienience to voters. They don't care about the environment because like all my neighbours, we now drive 3 times the distance to a different town.
We're now being told our council tax will have to go up to cover the shortfall.
UK is rich - the Labour redistribution scheme has never had it so good but it can end
besides the effect of green taxation is not going to be clear - it depends on the elesticity of those goods that will be taxed.
It is like to go fishing with a hand granade. You risk to kill all the fishes in the pond...
our economy (yes based on capitalism! for those commies reading) is based on growth and leveraged (more or less) with debt. You (with an idea) borrow from me (with money) to build something better in the future for all of us.
Now even slowing down the economy can have unforseen effects: each time you tamper with such a delicate mechanism you can trigger awful consequences. Look at the Chinese stock market: the authorities wanted to tax a bit more the system and bang 190 billion in losses in one day.
did they got a penny out of it? no. did they piss off the system? big time
the green shit is propaganda pure and simple: marxist propaganda that has finally found a "palatable" approach that works on media, politicians (they "finally" look to do something "good"
and some of us
When people will spend less to balance their books there will be higher unemployment. With all the immigration we have in UK there will be incredible social tensions. Not to mention the difficulty to push for taxes to balance the government projects.
And there you have it: a recession could be the end of Labour and the Green beliefs when they will hit you really hard in the pocket. In my opinion people out there have not yet fully appreciated the impact of wider taxation for "green" reasons. They will eventually and will be unhappy but when the system will be ruined. It will take years to fix it...
There is something good about green: recycling for example is fine by me. But then when you start to affect choices in consumers that's another thing.
There will be people responsible for this potential economic disaster and to a certain extent the Green movement could be wiped out on a major crisis. Pity because these eco-mentalists will squander some good ideas about the planet with all their ridicolous propaganda.
In a nutshell the system will eventually flush eco-fascists and labour at the worst point for us (financially)
It is my personal belief that the overall system in UK is becoming more and more tax averse than in the last 10 years: the lie of "tax and spend and invest and tax more" is now exposed. At an incredible cost unfortunately.
If it is not road pricing it will be council tax: there are now several fronts of mass dissent.
We only lack politicians with true balls to stop this machine eating away our income. But eventually the "system" will produce one or more...
If there is a lot of money the government with always waste it, if its resources are limited it will always find ways to maximise its use.
If you have a glass of water in the middle of the desert you will sip slowly and gently, if you have a swimming pool full of water you do not really actually care...
A good government is a small one, for all of us because it makes easier to address responsabilities for how the "res publica" is managed...
end of rant
besides the effect of green taxation is not going to be clear - it depends on the elesticity of those goods that will be taxed.
It is like to go fishing with a hand granade. You risk to kill all the fishes in the pond...
our economy (yes based on capitalism! for those commies reading) is based on growth and leveraged (more or less) with debt. You (with an idea) borrow from me (with money) to build something better in the future for all of us.
Now even slowing down the economy can have unforseen effects: each time you tamper with such a delicate mechanism you can trigger awful consequences. Look at the Chinese stock market: the authorities wanted to tax a bit more the system and bang 190 billion in losses in one day.
did they got a penny out of it? no. did they piss off the system? big time
the green shit is propaganda pure and simple: marxist propaganda that has finally found a "palatable" approach that works on media, politicians (they "finally" look to do something "good"
and some of us When people will spend less to balance their books there will be higher unemployment. With all the immigration we have in UK there will be incredible social tensions. Not to mention the difficulty to push for taxes to balance the government projects.
And there you have it: a recession could be the end of Labour and the Green beliefs when they will hit you really hard in the pocket. In my opinion people out there have not yet fully appreciated the impact of wider taxation for "green" reasons. They will eventually and will be unhappy but when the system will be ruined. It will take years to fix it...
There is something good about green: recycling for example is fine by me. But then when you start to affect choices in consumers that's another thing.
There will be people responsible for this potential economic disaster and to a certain extent the Green movement could be wiped out on a major crisis. Pity because these eco-mentalists will squander some good ideas about the planet with all their ridicolous propaganda.
In a nutshell the system will eventually flush eco-fascists and labour at the worst point for us (financially)
It is my personal belief that the overall system in UK is becoming more and more tax averse than in the last 10 years: the lie of "tax and spend and invest and tax more" is now exposed. At an incredible cost unfortunately.
If it is not road pricing it will be council tax: there are now several fronts of mass dissent.
We only lack politicians with true balls to stop this machine eating away our income. But eventually the "system" will produce one or more...
If there is a lot of money the government with always waste it, if its resources are limited it will always find ways to maximise its use.
If you have a glass of water in the middle of the desert you will sip slowly and gently, if you have a swimming pool full of water you do not really actually care...
A good government is a small one, for all of us because it makes easier to address responsabilities for how the "res publica" is managed...
end of rant
Edited by aston67 on Wednesday 14th March 18:36
actually work in retail auditing and so have no difficulty in getting shopping done, but when shopping for persoanl stuff, like to be able to drive to a car park, find a space, pay a small amount and go out and spend some money..
gave up on bedford, but the new park and ride scheme is much better and about the cost of a multi storey with the advantage of the ticket not running out
internet stuff is great and have no problems with cc online, as long as it has secure server am generally happy with it
gave up on bedford, but the new park and ride scheme is much better and about the cost of a multi storey with the advantage of the ticket not running out
internet stuff is great and have no problems with cc online, as long as it has secure server am generally happy with it
Right, so the powers that be have realised that introducing a congestion charge reduces the number of people that come into the town centre.
Err, isn't that the point? Fewer people coming = less congestion.
Or do they think that our cars come to towns on their own? Or perhaps that we come just to drive aimlessly around and then go home?
(actually, now I think about it, we do actually. But only in towns where they refuse to build carparks...)
Err, isn't that the point? Fewer people coming = less congestion.
Or do they think that our cars come to towns on their own? Or perhaps that we come just to drive aimlessly around and then go home?
(actually, now I think about it, we do actually. But only in towns where they refuse to build carparks...)
The lefties seem to have the idea that they can change our habits. Their ideal is that the business all keep running we all keep going into town but we all walk bus or cycle in. But peoples habits are very hard to predict and almost impossible to affect.
The end result will just be the demise of the town centre as we know it. All we will have is huge out of town shopping centres and internet shopping. The quirky specialist shops that we all value from time to time will be history.
But I am sure the shop owners wont mind the sacrafice and the long hours spent in the doll que when they realise that because of the congestion charging the planet is saved. Yea right!
The end result will just be the demise of the town centre as we know it. All we will have is huge out of town shopping centres and internet shopping. The quirky specialist shops that we all value from time to time will be history.
But I am sure the shop owners wont mind the sacrafice and the long hours spent in the doll que when they realise that because of the congestion charging the planet is saved. Yea right!
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