RE: Zeroshift Gearbox
Friday 30th January 2004
Zeroshift Gearbox
Clutchless gearbox prototype installed in Cerbera
Regular readers of the Gassing Station will be aware that a revolutionary new gearbox is being tested in a Cerbera.
The 'Zeroshift' gearbox is a new 'box that promises clutchless upshifts just by slamming from one gear into the next without even lifting off the power.
It's been a dream of engineers for many years to revamp the gearbox but it's a component that in essence hasn't changed for decades. Fresh thinking was needed and Bill Martin was the man to come up with the solution.
Secrecy surrounds the project so we can't even tell you how it works. What we can tell you is that it sounds like one of those great solutions that uses simplicity rather than complexity to achieve its goal. There are no complex hydraulics or electronics involved. A relatively simple addition is made to a standard gearbox to give the 'Zeroshift' capability. So far it's been added successfully to a Borg Warner T5 and they're working on a WRC 'box and a six speed Tremec T56.
Bill's been working on the idea for many years and has been down some blind alleys with potential partners in the past. Now he's teamed up with former TVR Tuscan racer Phil James.
One of Phil's businesses is gearbox engineering so when the idea was presented to him, he jumped at the chance to get involved. The prototype was installed in Phil's Cerbera last year and extensive testing continues.
Racecar Engineering magazine recently featured the car. Read the article here (PDF).
Discussion
News Story said:
The 'Zeroshift' gearbox is a new 'box that promises clutchless upshifts just by slamming from one gear into the next without even lifting off the power.
Hmmmmmm interesting, what with this and a new ECU transplant. Sounds like 3rd party businesses are creating the ultimate Cerbera.
GAH!!!! that article just wasn't fair..... all he told us is that it works and NYAH NYAH they aren't going to tell us!!!!! I've gotta know, this is gonna drive me crazy. I'll pretend that I'm just anxiously awaiting more news, but later I just know I'm gonna be staring at that diagram trying to figure out what else goes there......
danmangt40 said:Not the only one mate - being an engineer is indeed a curse when you can't work something out!
GAH!!!! that article just wasn't fair..... all he told us is that it works and NYAH NYAH they aren't going to tell us!!!!! I've gotta know, this is gonna drive me crazy. I'll pretend that I'm just anxiously awaiting more news, but later I just know I'm gonna be staring at that diagram trying to figure out what else goes there......
*Very fishy*
Please excuse my negative attitude, but they promis a lot of new stuff and advantages and don't give any technical insights at all.
I guess this is some kind of belt or chain drive (variable transmission). AUDI already sells similiar stuff. The only problem: the adaptation to engines with high torque figures.
And don't forget that companies like ZF or GETRAG (the industry leaders) are continuously performing research in this area...
Please excuse my negative attitude, but they promis a lot of new stuff and advantages and don't give any technical insights at all.
I guess this is some kind of belt or chain drive (variable transmission). AUDI already sells similiar stuff. The only problem: the adaptation to engines with high torque figures.
And don't forget that companies like ZF or GETRAG (the industry leaders) are continuously performing research in this area...
florian said:Did you actually read the article or the PDF document? It clearly explains that this can be fitted to a standard 'box.
I guess this is some kind of belt or chain drive (variable transmission). AUDI already sells similiar stuff. The only problem: the adaptation to engines with high torque figures.
My guess is that the big 'simple' innovation is that the gears can now freewheel in one rotational direction on the shaft. In this way, the gearbox could be in two gears at once, but only one would be transmitting power. (The other would be spinning on the shaft, ready to take up power when the 'box leaves the other gear.)
Only problem with my theory is that it only works under acceleration OR braking. If the gears span on the shaft while allowing power to be transmitted to the wheels then they'd also spin on the shaft on the overrun, so there'd be no engine braking, which is specifically mentioned in the article.
Still, sounds interesting, though.
florian said:
*Very fishy*
Please excuse my negative attitude, but they promis a lot of new stuff and advantages and don't give any technical insights at all.
I guess this is some kind of belt or chain drive (variable transmission). AUDI already sells similiar stuff. The only problem: the adaptation to engines with high torque figures.
And don't forget that companies like ZF or GETRAG (the industry leaders) are continuously performing research in this area...
Go and buy the racecar engineering issue and have a read properly (I haven't opened the PDF so I don't know if it has the diagrams in it). They include a nice little cross-section blueprint that shows what components are changed and what stays the same. The number of changes are remarkably small retaining all of the discrete gears. There is no CVT, electromagnetic clutches or viscous couplings. Whatever it is they've put together this is a real, pure mechanical solution to an old problem.
Nah-say all you like but just for once I think they really are onto something big
The AUDI DSG ("Direkt-Schalt-Getriebe") is a completely different technology.
It actually incoporates two independant "sub-gearboxes", each with its own clutch: one for the gears 1-3-5 and the other for the remaining gears 2-4-6.
While one gear ist engaged (e.g. 2nd), the other "sub-gearbox" already prepares the next gear (e.g. 3rd). Therefore a smooth transition between the two gears is possible, without any significant loss in accelaration.
The DSG-Technology is not easy to handle, as far as the steering software/hardware is concerned. There was quite an exhaustive article in a german professional publication ("ATZ - Automobiltechnische Zeitschrift") recently (edited by AUDI-engineers, btw.).
Technical insight: [url]www.jeyping.dynip.com/journal/images/dsg.jpg[/url]
It actually incoporates two independant "sub-gearboxes", each with its own clutch: one for the gears 1-3-5 and the other for the remaining gears 2-4-6.
While one gear ist engaged (e.g. 2nd), the other "sub-gearbox" already prepares the next gear (e.g. 3rd). Therefore a smooth transition between the two gears is possible, without any significant loss in accelaration.
The DSG-Technology is not easy to handle, as far as the steering software/hardware is concerned. There was quite an exhaustive article in a german professional publication ("ATZ - Automobiltechnische Zeitschrift") recently (edited by AUDI-engineers, btw.).
Technical insight: [url]www.jeyping.dynip.com/journal/images/dsg.jpg[/url]
Florian,
If you read the article (I think it's been said a couple of times in this thread
) you'll see that there are no sub-gearboxes. No CVT. No snake oil. Just (as has also been said) a simple mechanical solution.
It's often the case with problems like this that a non-engineer (or untrained engineer) comes up with a beautifully simple and elegant solution. The people who have been reading (and writing) the books for 20 years "know" too much. They know that this is impossible, because they've been told it is. then somebody comes along in complete ignorance and invents it.
I read the article in RE a couple of weeks or so back, and I was intreagued. The diagram they produced there showed which components needed to be modified (a few) or replaced (even fewer). We're definitely looking at a relatively simple modification to a standard transmission here.
James
If you read the article (I think it's been said a couple of times in this thread
) you'll see that there are no sub-gearboxes. No CVT. No snake oil. Just (as has also been said) a simple mechanical solution. It's often the case with problems like this that a non-engineer (or untrained engineer) comes up with a beautifully simple and elegant solution. The people who have been reading (and writing) the books for 20 years "know" too much. They know that this is impossible, because they've been told it is. then somebody comes along in complete ignorance and invents it.
I read the article in RE a couple of weeks or so back, and I was intreagued. The diagram they produced there showed which components needed to be modified (a few) or replaced (even fewer). We're definitely looking at a relatively simple modification to a standard transmission here.
James
Dear James,
indeed I'm very sceptical.
Take a peek at the article:
They promise the "ultimate gearbox" but fail to deliver any concrete technical insights. You're referring to the diagram on page 58: from an engineers point of view, this diagram tells you *nothing at all* about the way this gearbox is supposed to work.
Do you really think that an invention of this magnitude can't be protected by patents?
Look, I really don't want to put this article down, in fact I *love* to see new solutions in automotive engineering (especially from Britain), *but* this story is just too good to be true. Let's wait and see...
Cheers
indeed I'm very sceptical.
Take a peek at the article:
Article said:
"... it is reasonable to expect that in 10 years time every car in the world will be built with a gearbox operating on the ZeroShift principle."
They promise the "ultimate gearbox" but fail to deliver any concrete technical insights. You're referring to the diagram on page 58: from an engineers point of view, this diagram tells you *nothing at all* about the way this gearbox is supposed to work.
Article said:
"Since a patent provides little protection for a small company with relativly shallow pockets ZeroShift has fallen back on the signing of confidentiality agreements to prevent its idea being plagiarised."
Do you really think that an invention of this magnitude can't be protected by patents?
Look, I really don't want to put this article down, in fact I *love* to see new solutions in automotive engineering (especially from Britain), *but* this story is just too good to be true. Let's wait and see...
Cheers
florian said:
Do you really think that an invention of this magnitude can't be protected by patents?
Actually the simple answer to that is no. I have met more than enough people who have come up with very distinctive, innovative ideas in the automotive industry. In each case the idea has been correctly and thoroughly patented. In every case one of the major manufacturers has turned around and said "so sue us!" because they have used that same technology without permission or royalties very deliberately.
The problem is that it is down to the individual to protect their patents *not* the legal system. If someone steals your intellectual property no one is magically going to go knocking on doors and extracting a pound of flesh on your behalf. I think you may have noticed too that such legal actions do not come cheap and therein lies the truth of the matter, unless you have a lot of money (and i really do mean *a lot*) you have not a hope of protecting that copyright as your opponents will just dry your funds up with legal costs.
Any idea how much it will cost for TVR owners to upgrade present tranny's to this new and exciting shifting option?
Forgetting about the labor what would it cost to get one of the modified tremec T56 units here in the states for my Corvette Z06..(tremec T56 tranny)
the Corvette community is hot on this upgrade!
30thousand Vettes sold a year for 8 years ..equals 240,000 corvettes ..of which 40% have the Tremec T56 installed and available as a core.
The new C6 also has the Tremec T56 standard now too...so its possible to imagine a growing market of at least another quarter of million in the future...
So the total market penetration numbers are around..a quarter of a million possible sales..
I don't know what the break even on a project like this would be ..but even a 10% penetration on the United States aftermarket for corvettes would be..24,000 units over the next 8 years..
Would it be profitable at approximately 3 thousand aftermarket units sold per year? Probably more for the first three or four years for the C5 owners who want or must have this upgrade..
Porsche 911's release of the dual clutch sequential shift technology due for sale this coming year here in the states..could make the retrofit of this articles new technology on T56 tranny even more popular..
Anyway we can get in contact with the creator of this new evolution on the Tremec T56?
Forgetting about the labor what would it cost to get one of the modified tremec T56 units here in the states for my Corvette Z06..(tremec T56 tranny)
the Corvette community is hot on this upgrade!
30thousand Vettes sold a year for 8 years ..equals 240,000 corvettes ..of which 40% have the Tremec T56 installed and available as a core.
The new C6 also has the Tremec T56 standard now too...so its possible to imagine a growing market of at least another quarter of million in the future...
So the total market penetration numbers are around..a quarter of a million possible sales..
I don't know what the break even on a project like this would be ..but even a 10% penetration on the United States aftermarket for corvettes would be..24,000 units over the next 8 years..
Would it be profitable at approximately 3 thousand aftermarket units sold per year? Probably more for the first three or four years for the C5 owners who want or must have this upgrade..
Porsche 911's release of the dual clutch sequential shift technology due for sale this coming year here in the states..could make the retrofit of this articles new technology on T56 tranny even more popular..
Anyway we can get in contact with the creator of this new evolution on the Tremec T56?
I don't like cars without a clutch, the rush and fun just lacks. But hey, that's not the subject here.
As an aerospace engineer, I can admit that this is possible! Turbofans and jet engines are completely mechanical, no electronics involved! If those would lose the same ratio of power, planes would not be able to either land or take off! (A speed loss equals a lift loss.)
In my opinian, if an unequal beam is used, everything is possible! Archimedes once said: "Give me a beam large enough and I 'll lift the earth." In combination with "Sublimatica"'s hint, it should work like the article says:
Slamming into gear at the moment of opportunity (like the biker getting the bottle of water).
I won't be standing in the line to get it (unless I were to be driving in the F1 circus), although it is great to here someone has finally come up with the idea!
Greetings,
Peter
PS Have fun in guessing ...
As an aerospace engineer, I can admit that this is possible! Turbofans and jet engines are completely mechanical, no electronics involved! If those would lose the same ratio of power, planes would not be able to either land or take off! (A speed loss equals a lift loss.)
In my opinian, if an unequal beam is used, everything is possible! Archimedes once said: "Give me a beam large enough and I 'll lift the earth." In combination with "Sublimatica"'s hint, it should work like the article says:
Slamming into gear at the moment of opportunity (like the biker getting the bottle of water).
I won't be standing in the line to get it (unless I were to be driving in the F1 circus), although it is great to here someone has finally come up with the idea!
Greetings,
Peter
PS Have fun in guessing ...
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