Friday 5th February 2010

DVLA Logbook Disaster Rolls On

Stolen logbooks continue causing cloning chaos - what to watch out for

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Several thousand V5 logbooks stolen from the DVLA in 2006 are continuing to assist car cloners in creating false identities for stolen motors.

The story goes that the logbooks had a minor misprint and had been earmarked for destruction - but somewhere between the printers and the shredder, the papers went missing, only to surface over the next three years (and counting) being used to create false vehicle identities. So far over £13m worth of cars have been stolen and cloned in this way, and Police are still recovering around 10 stolen logbooks every week. It is estimated that 120,000 to 130,000 stolen blank documents are still in circulation.

Fortunately a contact at the Police told PH that if you're savvy, these cloned cars can be spotted before that fateful knock at the door from plod.

First and foremost, check the nine-digit V5 Logbook code. You can find it here:

According to the DVLA, all logbooks with codes in the range of BG8229501 to BG9999030 or BI2305501 to BI2800000 are stolen, and should be immediately reported to the DVLA.

Other than that, be sure to perform all of the normal checks you'd look to do when buying a used car. An HPI check is a must, but in itself its not enough - most clones will appear to be fine on the database. Always check that details on the HPI report match up with the vehicle you're looking at - clones aren't always perfect copies, and discrepancies in colour or spec could possibly be indicators that something is amiss.

Also, be sure to visually inspect all VIN plates to see if they appear tampered with or replaced. You can find the location of these plates by typing your car's name into a search engine and having a dig around.

We love used cars here at PH, and it always makes us sad to see this sort of thing going on. But we won't let a DVLA cock-up come in the way of finding a pre-loved bargain, and nor should you - just be sensible, do your checks and for goodness sake check that logbook code!

[jeremyc]

What "considerable digging" did you have to do to find the information? There is a link on the front page of www.dvla.gov.uk

DirectGov Website said:

If you decide to buy a vehicle make sure the person selling it has the right to do so as the registration certificate isn’t proof that they own the vehicle.

Make sure you have the registration certificate and it matches the vehicle’s details.

Check the registration certificate and satisfy yourself that it is real. By holding it up to the light you can see the DVLA watermark in it. You can also phone DVLA on 0300 790 6104 to check the registration certificate is real before you buy.

Be on the lookout for stolen registration certificates. DVLA has provided a range of serial numbers of known stolen registration certificates. If you find one that is in the range of BG8229501 to BG9999030 or BI2305501 to BI2800000 do not proceed with the sale and contact the police.

If you can’t find a serial number or it looks like it has been altered or tampered with, or the vehicle is accompanied by only part of the registration certificate you should not go ahead with the sale.

Edited by jeremyc on Friday 5th February 14:09

[SimonSaid]

Oh expletives. I have no idea how I missed that. Was it there half an hour ago?!

• corrected*

[Twoshoe]

I read recently that they expect these stolen documents to be causing problems for many years to come. Surely all they have to do is redesign it slightly and then gradually as new documents get issued when people sell their cars, the current style will become obsolete. Additionally, they could offer to reissue people's valid docs in the new style if they request it (perhaps for a nominal charge) and then their subsequent purchasers will know immediately that it cannot be one of the stolen ones.

Or am I missing somthing here...?

[ads]

Twoshoe said:

I read recently that they expect these stolen documents to be causing problems for many years to come. Surely all they have to do is redesign it slightly and then gradually as new documents get issued when people sell their cars, the current style will become obsolete. Additionally, they could offer to reissue people's valid docs in the new style if they request it (perhaps for a nominal charge) and then their subsequent purchasers will know immediately that it cannot be one of the stolen ones.

Or am I missing somthing here...?

Good idea.
I think they should re-issue a new style document as a matter of course, and free of charge. After all it is their cock-up!

Edited by ads on Friday 5th February 14:25

[frankthesurf]

So if its the fault of the DVLA and plod takes your car away would it be possible to sue the DVLA??

[beano9]

frankthesurf said:

So if its the fault of the DVLA and plod takes your car away would it be possible to sue the DVLA??

I like your thinking....

[snorky]

no it was a theft - do you want to be liable when someone steals your breadknife then stabs someone with it?

[SimonSaid]

snorky said:

no it was a theft - do you want to be liable when someone steals your breadknife then stabs someone with it?

Exactly. Although the DVLA have made a MASSIVE cockup here, ultimately it wasn't a criminal act. The criminal act was the theft of the blank V5s from DVLA HQ, plus the subsequent car theft and cloning etc.

The DVLA could be slapped on the wrist for negligence, but you'd never convince a judge that they were therefore responsible for all of the consequences arising. Snorky's example works well. Similarly, if I drop my car keys in the street then I'm a clumsy plonker, but I'm not repsonsible if a theif subsequently picks the keys up and uses my car in a bank job. I wouldn't then have to refund the bank

[zac510]

120000 is not some guy slipping a few out inside a folder on his way out the office is it?

[snorky]

agreed, it is ridiculous that they are essentially ignoring this, something they could easily put right with a colour change and re-issue...it seems a bit like a car recall - only when it reaches the right proportion of public shaming will they do anything

[bazking69]

Another farce at the hands of a government run agency...

[Ed.]

Can't help thinking if maybe this was old money intercepted on the shredder it would be taken more seriously.

[Bish]

First car I bought when starting up my car dealership was a clone..........still £27,500 out of pocket. However we have got the guy and have a charge over his property and have just won a legal battle with him which involves him with 6 other vehicles........it has been 2 years in the making but I was not letting the little basturd get away with it.

The way they cloned the car was very impressive and it took the fact that the car was being exported and having a thorough inspection to find that the chassis had been played with. They had re-stamped the number on the chasis rail of the Discovery changed all the VIN plates and the engine number too..........I know spend a LONG TIME checking these all out just to be sure!!

F'ing DVLA!

[soad]

zac510 said:

120000 is not some guy slipping a few out inside a folder on his way out the office is it?

That's a huge fking number! Typical bloody DVLA...

[dandarez]

...LOST!!! ...between the printers and the shredders...

Really?

Being in the publishing and printing industries, I reckon 130,000 V5 documents would weigh around
1,300 KILOS.

Couldn't exactly fall of the lorry and not be noticed, or piled on the back seat of your car, eh?

INSIDE JOB?
or does it need rocket science?

[SimonSaid]

soad said:

zac510 said:

120000 is not some guy slipping a few out inside a folder on his way out the office is it?

That's a huge fking number! Typical bloody DVLA...

That's not even the whole number - that's just the remainder. They've been at this for 3 years and must have found a large number already.

[Chas-Chiro]

ads said:

Twoshoe said:

I read recently that they expect these stolen documents to be causing problems for many years to come. Surely all they have to do is redesign it slightly and then gradually as new documents get issued when people sell their cars, the current style will become obsolete. Additionally, they could offer to reissue people's valid docs in the new style if they request it (perhaps for a nominal charge) and then their subsequent purchasers will know immediately that it cannot be one of the stolen ones.

Or am I missing somthing here...?

Good idea.
I think they should re-issue a new style document as a matter of course, and free of charge. After all it is their cock-up!

They shaould have re-issued new documents in the post with car tax renewal forms starting in 2006 when the theft happened. In 12 months all documents would have been replaced with a new style. To not do this but keep quiet about it should raise some concerns about what else has happened & not yet been told to the public.

frankthesurf said:

So if its the fault of the DVLA and plod takes your car away would it be possible to sue the DVLA??

I do beleive they they are responsible for any one that has lost money/purcased car since the discovery of the theft of the documents. They are employed to run this department effectively from tax payers money. They should have started issuing new style documents as soon as they became aware of the problem, to not do so is almost the same as aiding & abetting in the crime. They have allowed honest tax payers to lose vast sums of money whilst trying to hide their screw ups.

I beleive it would be a good case to sue them for all loses after they had realised the theft of documents and still not made adequate attempts to rectify this.

snorky said:

no it was a theft - do you want to be liable when someone steals your breadknife then stabs someone with it?

Agreed to a point. Only until they had become aware of the theft, then they are equally responsible for any fraud. After the theft was realised they should have started changing the style of the document, public annocements, news announcements of the theft. Any one that has purchased a car after theft was known was also duped in part by DVLA.
A big effort should have been made to stop the use of stolen old style documents, instead they said nothing & kept quiet. That makes them guilty in my book.
Sack the lot of them now who were responsible for the hush hush approach.
A most dishonest way of acting too.

[youbeenspied]

Nobody actually owns their car in the UK as it states your just the "Registered Keeper"

[va1o]

fk the dvla

[Dogwatch]

youbeenspied said:

Nobody actually owns their car in the UK as it states your just the "Registered Keeper"

An interesting viewpoint that not many people would agree with (different for registration numbers). Many people equate ownership with the name of the registered keeper which isn't the case.