Why does everyone slate Paddle Shift gearboxes?
Discussion
jeremyc said:
Gotta agree with Ted on this..? Why..?
You may be the nicest bloke in the world, but I just fail to see the logic in the above comments...
Now granted you Alpina boys are unlikely to be looking out of the side window whilst drifting round your favourite hairpin bend, but you wouldn't want your magic gearbox to suddenly change up mid-slide now, would you?
Not would I want it banging on the rev limiter...
Mmmmm
In my experience - the paddle boxes are getting better. Sadly - being the old git that I am - and having spent years trying to master double declutching and heel and toeing - just as I am getting near the mark - the boxes will make me redundant! B*gger!
In my 355 F1 Spider - it was appauling. No questions - it was not right.
The 360 F1 paddle change was an improvement on the 355 - but (IMHO) still falls short of the mark.
I have yet to try the 360CS (although I have been a passenger)and when pressing on (so too speak
) it was great - so around a track would be brilliant - however, when pootling (and why would you do that - other than to hang on to your license - details, I know!) it was better than the standard 360 F1 - but still not "right", however, as the software is continually improved - it's getting there!
I understand that the software in the 575M H GTC pack is, and I quote "the best ever" - the jury's out - we'll wait and see.
The Gallardo e-gear that I tried was "better" than I'd imagined - although not perfect.
The M3 SMG II is the "best of breed" in my opinion - although option 6 in manual mode it too brutal - however, as an overall package it worked well.
I also think that it {b]IS important to note - you DO have to change the way you press the throttle peddle - feathering/slightly lifting off, just a little to get a good, smooth gear change - and THIS is what takes time to master/remember....
Ho hum!
Anjum
In my experience - the paddle boxes are getting better. Sadly - being the old git that I am - and having spent years trying to master double declutching and heel and toeing - just as I am getting near the mark - the boxes will make me redundant! B*gger!
In my 355 F1 Spider - it was appauling. No questions - it was not right.
The 360 F1 paddle change was an improvement on the 355 - but (IMHO) still falls short of the mark.
I have yet to try the 360CS (although I have been a passenger)and when pressing on (so too speak
) it was great - so around a track would be brilliant - however, when pootling (and why would you do that - other than to hang on to your license - details, I know!) it was better than the standard 360 F1 - but still not "right", however, as the software is continually improved - it's getting there! I understand that the software in the 575M H GTC pack is, and I quote "the best ever" - the jury's out - we'll wait and see.
The Gallardo e-gear that I tried was "better" than I'd imagined - although not perfect.
The M3 SMG II is the "best of breed" in my opinion - although option 6 in manual mode it too brutal - however, as an overall package it worked well.
I also think that it {b]IS important to note - you DO have to change the way you press the throttle peddle - feathering/slightly lifting off, just a little to get a good, smooth gear change - and THIS is what takes time to master/remember....
Ho hum!
Anjum
Personally I dont feel in control with the paddle shift, and have heard stories of it popping out of gear randomly, and just sticking in a gear etc. That sort of thing can be scary as hell (probably as scary as the 355 sticking throttle thing, now that was a 'mare!).
The other point to note, is that even if you lose your clutch for whatever reason in a conventional manual, you can still get the car home, not so with the F1 type cars, which can bitch even if a lightbulb is blown? (or so I heard).
Overall, its more so the feeling of being in control, slightly more involvement (self blip etc) and fun, and less mechanical problems, which makes me steer (
) towards manuals. The F1's are not perfect, but they are very, very good. Having driven Kev's CS, it is startlingly fast and definitely by far the best semi manual I've ever driven by a margin.
F1 box I would like on my track only car, for example. Not on my road car.
The other point to note, is that even if you lose your clutch for whatever reason in a conventional manual, you can still get the car home, not so with the F1 type cars, which can bitch even if a lightbulb is blown? (or so I heard).
Overall, its more so the feeling of being in control, slightly more involvement (self blip etc) and fun, and less mechanical problems, which makes me steer (
) towards manuals. The F1's are not perfect, but they are very, very good. Having driven Kev's CS, it is startlingly fast and definitely by far the best semi manual I've ever driven by a margin. F1 box I would like on my track only car, for example. Not on my road car.
Agree pretty much with exint2's comments, having become more familiar with the car over the past couple of weeks I can honestly say that I wouldn't prefer a full manual box in 'this' car, of course the system's vary, the Alfa selespeed being particularly cr@p. After the first day of driving the car home I have never again engaged auto mode and I leave the car in sport mode at all time's, I think most do.
Of course having only ever owned manual cars myself there is sometimes a phantom twitch in the left leg and there is a degree of involvement that seems missing but I think this is more perceived than actual, your still changing gear after all, its only the process that has changed and this requires new skills.
>> Edited by singh on Friday 13th August 15:28
Of course having only ever owned manual cars myself there is sometimes a phantom twitch in the left leg and there is a degree of involvement that seems missing but I think this is more perceived than actual, your still changing gear after all, its only the process that has changed and this requires new skills.
Anjum said:
I also think that it {b]IS important to note - you DO have to change the way you press the throttle peddle - feathering/slightly lifting off, just a little to get a good, smooth gear change - and THIS is what takes time to master/remember....
Ho hum!
Anjum
>> Edited by singh on Friday 13th August 15:28
exint2 said:It's almost certainly because the early systems were shite. They were awful, memorably so, as the replies here tell you. They'e taken years to perfect (and are still not quite there), certainly long enough for people to get prejudiced and stay that way.
Jeremy Carkson and the top gear gang are always slagging of "flappy paddle shifts" , as are members of this forum - but why?
Drove a 2000 360F1 when I was looking at 360 Modenas, and it was so bloody slow and jerky I couldn't understand why anyone would tick that box unless they had a gun to their head. That pretty much set me against F1 boxes until I got the Stradale, where there was no choice. In the Stradale it's just brilliant. Not perfect, but still brilliant- you get a thump and a sort of whipcrack sound from the exhaust when each gear is engaged, adding quite a bit of drama to the occasion. With twin clutch systems becoming more widespread I think you'll see these systems replace manuals altogether, although these are so quick as to be rather anodyne.
The real selling point in my view is that you keep your hands on the wheel and brake with your left foot.
456mgt said:
Jeremy Carkson and the top gear gang are always slagging of "flappy paddle shifts" , as are members of this forum - but why?
It's almost certainly because the early systems were shite. They were awful, memorably so, as the replies here tell you. They'e taken years to perfect (and are still not quite there), certainly long enough for people to get prejudiced and stay that way.
Have disagree slightly with you on this one Kev
. The early 360 TCU was bad but they modified this on the 2002 cars onwards, however the 355 F1 was a much better system. This is because of the linkage difference the 355 had a mechanical linkage and the 360 electrical. The 360 TCU is simply trying to do too many things at once hence the jerk. The shift on the 355 "feels" a lot quicker and smoother than the shift on the 360. The only downside to the 355 F1 is that it doesnt blip the throttle on downshifts. The Audi/Lamborghini paddle shift is a signoficant improvement over Ferraris in my opinion because it pre selects the next gear -effectively a dual clutch system. That is why the upshift feels a lot smoother on the Lambos than the Ferraris. Also if I am not mistaken the Audi system allows you to use launch control at will without destroying the clutch in 5 goes, a la 360CS
ninja_eli said:
Personally I dont feel in control with the paddle shift, and have heard stories of it popping out of gear randomly, and just sticking in a gear etc. That sort of thing can be scary as hell (probably as scary as the 355 sticking throttle thing, now that was a 'mare!).
The other point to note, is that even if you lose your clutch for whatever reason in a conventional manual, you can still get the car home, not so with the F1 type cars, which can bitch even if a lightbulb is blown? (or so I heard).
Overall, its more so the feeling of being in control, slightly more involvement (self blip etc) and fun, and less mechanical problems, which makes me steer (
F1 box I would like on my track only car, for example. Not on my road car.
What do YOU know about cars anyway perve?
CS f1 shift is the best out there. Quick AND smooth. The biggest problem with the others is that you can sometimes hit the throttle before gear engagement is complete ('cos you're in a hurry
) say when you're downshifting and want to really get on with it... the result is a massive spike in revs while the car is in neutral and a dangerous lurch when the gear engages... (can happen on the upshift too). CS shift is too fast for that though... 355 shift (despite lack of throttle blip on downshift) is more "predictable" than 360 F1 (non CS) which is why I prefer it. Better at pulling away too.
>> Edited by manu on Friday 13th August 18:22
i have a 355 f1 spider, lhd and one of the last made. Previously i had a 3200 gt auto. The f1 to me is a compromise, i was getting bored of the full auto in the maser and fancied the half way house of the f1 ferrari. It takes a little while to get used to but you can make very smooth up-changes by lifting off the throttle slightly. But you do need to concentrate. It can catch you out tho - if you go round a very slow corner in second with enough throttle to pull away smoothly it will choose to downchange to 1st (it does this if you go too slow for a gear) which will result in a big thump and jerk as you have too much throttle applied (after all you were in second). Answer is to anticipate this and downchange yourself to 1st. Also first gear is jerky in traffic. You end up leaving a gap in front so you can make a proper get away. Remember it has no clutch that you can control, normally you would use the clutch to modulate your slow start. There is a definite pleasure in the ease of changes and pretending you are an f1 driver but the system is also flawed. My clutch is 83% worn so will see if a new one makes any difference when fitted. So far it hasnt dropped out of a gear or got stuck in gear etc. Oh and for the record you can change from 1st to reverse in about a second (even if you go thru neutral) in reponse to some thread on hear (or f chat -cant remember). Would i recommend it? its all a matter of taste but yes. Beware of the costs tho.
Having had a couple of Tiptronics over the last four years I've come to like them.
The worry is this: if I change to a paddle shift car, do they turn with the wheel?
The Tip buttons are part of the wheel, so they're always where you want them, but fixed paddles on a steering column would be awkward if you're a bit crossed up!
Autocar never bothers to mention these little details, so advice would be much appreciated.
(Ignorance is due to living in outer Mongolia!)
The worry is this: if I change to a paddle shift car, do they turn with the wheel?
The Tip buttons are part of the wheel, so they're always where you want them, but fixed paddles on a steering column would be awkward if you're a bit crossed up!
Autocar never bothers to mention these little details, so advice would be much appreciated.
(Ignorance is due to living in outer Mongolia!)
Andy -- 83% worn after how many miles?
I've just gone over the 50,000 mile mark in my 89 Aston V8 Vantage. If its possible to get 50k miles (including a lot of central london driving and track driving) out of a clutch on a car weighing 2 tonnes with 450bhp and 410lbft of torque, then it ought to be possible to get 50k miles out of an F1 clutch. After all, the F1 brains ought to be able to control things better and prevent abuse.
However, the tales of F1 clutches going in a few thou miles, especially on Ferraris, are legion.
I've just gone over the 50,000 mile mark in my 89 Aston V8 Vantage. If its possible to get 50k miles (including a lot of central london driving and track driving) out of a clutch on a car weighing 2 tonnes with 450bhp and 410lbft of torque, then it ought to be possible to get 50k miles out of an F1 clutch. After all, the F1 brains ought to be able to control things better and prevent abuse.
However, the tales of F1 clutches going in a few thou miles, especially on Ferraris, are legion.
I've got e-gear on my Gallardo and I'm very happy with it. There are times when I would like to have a manual but mostly for the novelty of it. I didn't try a manual when I tested the car - it was offered, but I wasn't interested. The paddle shift is at its best when driving in a "spirited" fashion. It is also handy in slow traffic, but still needs a lot more concentration when driven slowly than an auto.
From all I've read, the manual Gallardo gearshift is nothing special, so I feel like I made the right choice.
From all I've read, the manual Gallardo gearshift is nothing special, so I feel like I made the right choice.
DAZ, many thanks for that.
I don't suppose it matters very much when you think about it, because you're unlikely to be groping for another gear when you're on full lock with your arms crossed.
My left foot has never recovered from 'Daytona Leg' hence the preference for two pedal driving.
I don't suppose it matters very much when you think about it, because you're unlikely to be groping for another gear when you're on full lock with your arms crossed.
My left foot has never recovered from 'Daytona Leg' hence the preference for two pedal driving.
5k miles? Jeeeezuz.
Sorry, you are being asked to pay for Ferrari's R&D.
Still, Ferrari have managed to convince (aka "brainwash") their customers that they need cambelts changed every 3 years (which just so happens to be an engine out job) so you have to admire their sheer balls at getting a nice revenue stream through the dealer service departments.
Theres nothing wrong with double chains, of course. Except they last 150k miles with only a tension check every 10k miles.
Sorry, you are being asked to pay for Ferrari's R&D.
Still, Ferrari have managed to convince (aka "brainwash") their customers that they need cambelts changed every 3 years (which just so happens to be an engine out job) so you have to admire their sheer balls at getting a nice revenue stream through the dealer service departments.
Theres nothing wrong with double chains, of course. Except they last 150k miles with only a tension check every 10k miles.
My box is a semi auto and just about the worst out there. Have to say, despite the odd moment when I miss pressing clutch (an extra dimension to driving that my car lacks) - I do quite like it. Its good fun punching up and down the gears pretending to be schumacher every now and again. Also relatively satisfying to heel and toe (without the clutch, well, guessing what the box is deciding to do) to smooth out downshifts.
Havent got paddles yet, but im quite tempted to get some fitted - also could get a remap to speed the change up a little... ..and the car for that matter. But right now im pretty happy with the standard sequential jobbie.
Mine doesnt decided to change up unless I put it in full Auto (not pleasant) - also its fine to downchange whenever, although I dont think it'll let me go any further down the gears than say 4th @70 - which if it could, would mean big revs beyond its design capability.
Next car will be a manual, but I have enjoyed the paddle shift - not sure I would ever spec it in preference to a proper'box - but still pretty fun.
(granted its no stradale, but it is the most often-slaughtered box by the press out there..)
Havent got paddles yet, but im quite tempted to get some fitted - also could get a remap to speed the change up a little... ..and the car for that matter. But right now im pretty happy with the standard sequential jobbie.
Mine doesnt decided to change up unless I put it in full Auto (not pleasant) - also its fine to downchange whenever, although I dont think it'll let me go any further down the gears than say 4th @70 - which if it could, would mean big revs beyond its design capability.
Next car will be a manual, but I have enjoyed the paddle shift - not sure I would ever spec it in preference to a proper'box - but still pretty fun.
(granted its no stradale, but it is the most often-slaughtered box by the press out there..)
ajaym said:As usual Khundra
Have disagree slightly with you on this one Kev
you're right! 355 F1 is a much smoother system than the early 360s. Bloody impressive in it's own right and even more so considering it's several years old now. Thing is, how many people have ever tried one? ajaym said:
exint2 said:
Jeremy Carkson and the top gear gang are always slagging of "flappy paddle shifts" , as are members of this forum - but why?
It's almost certainly because the early systems were shite. They were awful, memorably so, as the replies here tell you. They'e taken years to perfect (and are still not quite there), certainly long enough for people to get prejudiced and stay that way.
Have disagree slightly with you on this one Kev
The Audi/Lamborghini paddle shift is a signoficant improvement over Ferraris in my opinion because it pre selects the next gear -effectively a dual clutch system. That is why the upshift feels a lot smoother on the Lambos than the Ferraris. Also if I am not mistaken the Audi system allows you to use launch control at will without destroying the clutch in 5 goes, a la 360CS
Kundra... This is not a game..
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