DIY Hydrogen convesrion for petrol & diesel engines
Discussion
I saw a bloke on telly the other day who had converted his own car to run on Hydrogen gas generated at home , simply by taking the current from a simple wind turbine, running the +ve and -ve through water, generated hydrogen gas, then he compressed it in bottles and was running his car on it........which got me thinking.
just googled it and found this........aparrently the US gouvernment are trying to shut these companies down.........as aparrently it might hit petrol and sales, and reduce demand on oil.....no s
t!
http://www.howtosavegas123.com/Car+Run+on+Water.ht...
The above conversion is a tad different, whereby the water is onboard the car and therefore the hydrogen generation process takes place in-car.....sounds much safer than a compressed cylinder.....I'm seriously thinking of giving it a try on my turbo diesel passat.........has anyone heard of anyone doing it in the UK?.......please tell us more
just googled it and found this........aparrently the US gouvernment are trying to shut these companies down.........as aparrently it might hit petrol and sales, and reduce demand on oil.....no s
t!http://www.howtosavegas123.com/Car+Run+on+Water.ht...
The above conversion is a tad different, whereby the water is onboard the car and therefore the hydrogen generation process takes place in-car.....sounds much safer than a compressed cylinder.....I'm seriously thinking of giving it a try on my turbo diesel passat.........has anyone heard of anyone doing it in the UK?.......please tell us more
Edited by knighty on Thursday 31st July 09:40
Edited by knighty on Thursday 31st July 09:46
i spent two years designing one of these units, lots of good testimonials as to how well it worked, no actual proof though, most of the ones available will work for 5 mins then boil and act like a water injection system, if it mounts under the bonnet and isnt fitted with a cooling fan then i would definatly say save your money, heat is a byproduct of electrolosis, add underbonnet temps to that and you have a very efficient kettle attached to your intake
knighty said:
I saw a bloke on telly the other day who had converted his own car to run on Hydrogen gas generated at home , simply by taking the current from a simple wind turbine, running the +ve and -ve through water, generated hydrogen gas, then he compressed it in bottles and was running his car on it........which got me thinking.
just googled it and found this........aparrently the US gouvernment are trying to shut these companies down.........as aparrently it might hit petrol and sales, and reduce demand on oil.....no st!
http://www.howtosavegas123.com/Car+Run+on+Water.ht...
The above conversion is a tad different, whereby the water is onboard the car and therefore the hydrogen generation process takes place in-car.....sounds much safer than a compressed cylinder.....I'm seriously thinking of giving it a try on my turbo diesel passat.........has anyone heard of anyone doing it in the UK?.......please tell us more
How can you split water into H2 and O, then recombine them with fire and produce energy in excess of that which you expended splitting?just googled it and found this........aparrently the US gouvernment are trying to shut these companies down.........as aparrently it might hit petrol and sales, and reduce demand on oil.....no s
t!http://www.howtosavegas123.com/Car+Run+on+Water.ht...
The above conversion is a tad different, whereby the water is onboard the car and therefore the hydrogen generation process takes place in-car.....sounds much safer than a compressed cylinder.....I'm seriously thinking of giving it a try on my turbo diesel passat.........has anyone heard of anyone doing it in the UK?.......please tell us more
Edited by knighty on Thursday 31st July 09:40
Edited by knighty on Thursday 31st July 09:46
'Normal' life on Earth has been doing something similar in a 2 organism process since not that long (in evolution terms) since it all started and needs constant energy input from the Sun.
knighty said:
Oh FFS not this fking stupid st AGAIN. When will people LEARN?Magic engine mending goop / magnetic oil / devices to put in petrol tank or fuel line to give leaded petrol or more power or MPG / vanes for inside of air flow meter or carb /Magic ability to split water (using energy) but then get more energy back than it takes to split it in the first place / pyramid schemes all have one thing in common. They are cons designed to take advantage of the weak minded.
How in the name of holy hell can you put energy in to split water in to H and O and then burn them to release energy and somehow release (and more importantly efficiently harness) more energy? If the reaction was even 80% efficient then I could go along with something along the lines of a solar panel to top up the energy but it's nowhere near.
How in the name of holy hell can you put energy in to split water in to H and O and then burn them to release energy and somehow release (and more importantly efficiently harness) more energy? If the reaction was even 80% efficient then I could go along with something along the lines of a solar panel to top up the energy but it's nowhere near.
wildoliver said:
How in the name of holy hell can you put energy in to split water in to H and O and then burn them to release energy and somehow release (and more importantly efficiently harness) more energy? If the reaction was even 80% efficient then I could go along with something along the lines of a solar panel to top up the energy but it's nowhere near.
It's not about splitting water to produce Hydrogen/Oxygen and then burning that to get the energy back again. Conservation of energy shows that would be hopeless.The theory is that by adding small amounts of Hydrogen and Oxygen gas to the air/fuel mix it is possible to make the air/fuel burn more efficiently. I don't know how significant the gains are, or whether these gadgets actually produce them (I'm extremely skeptical tbh) but in principle they *could* work.
No, they can't.
If the engine can make use of free hydrogen or oxygen it is already in a very poor state of tune (too lean or too rich, respectively) and in both cases, the extra energy in providing either would be more than saved by a basic tune-up and forgetting the add-ons. And maybe reading a book on some basic thermodynamics.
TANSTAAFL.
If the engine can make use of free hydrogen or oxygen it is already in a very poor state of tune (too lean or too rich, respectively) and in both cases, the extra energy in providing either would be more than saved by a basic tune-up and forgetting the add-ons. And maybe reading a book on some basic thermodynamics.
TANSTAAFL.
Huff said:
If the engine can make use of free hydrogen or oxygen it is already in a very poor state of tune (too lean or too rich, respectively) and in both cases, the extra energy in providing either would be more than saved by a basic tune-up and forgetting the add-ons. And maybe reading a book on some basic thermodynamics.
TANSTAAFL.
It's not that simple though. Internal combustion engines are extremely inefficient and there is a large scope for improvement while staying entirely within the conventional laws of physics. TANSTAAFL.
Water injection is well known as a way to improve efficiency of piston and turbine aircraft engines but is not widely used because of the cost and complexity. For private vehicles there's also the hassle of keeping the water supply topped up and maintaining a second injection system and I doubt many people would consider it worth doing.
However, if you're prepared to suffer the hassle, and get it working right, it *could* provide modest gains. Whether any of the systems being sold on fleabay actually do it right remains to be proved, and I'm skeptical of them all. But these systems, unlike the vast majority of obvious scams, do have the potential to work in principle.
Pigeon said:
knighty said:
Oh FFS not this fking stupid st AGAIN. When will people LEARN?
Interesting nevertheless.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8stApCmxYEM&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75_TGiwg78&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8stApCmxYEM&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75_TGiwg78&fea...
Oh here we go again. Just because some straw chewing yokel believes it to be true, doesn't make it actually true. Nor does 159 brain dead "hey man this is cool, I tried it on mah pah's 1959 John Deere and it works" postings from 13 year olds.
If you accept that a wind turbine generates useful amounts of electricity, it is far more efficient to retain it as electricity and invert it to 240vac then spend the 23p a year you save on petrol, or diesel, ethanol, or LPG.
If you accept that a wind turbine generates useful amounts of electricity, it is far more efficient to retain it as electricity and invert it to 240vac then spend the 23p a year you save on petrol, or diesel, ethanol, or LPG.
GreenV8S said:
The theory is that by adding small amounts of Hydrogen and Oxygen gas to the air/fuel mix it is possible to make the air/fuel burn more efficiently. I don't know how significant the gains are, or whether these gadgets actually produce them (I'm extremely skeptical tbh) but in principle they *could* work.
Pukka turbocharger installation vs. computer fan in the induction tract
That theory is being researched by some of the manufacturers, using exhaust heat and a catalyst to split the water I think, either that or an externally-charged hydrogen tank. You need several percent hydrogen in the fuel to do anything which means if you're generating it on the fly you need several kilowatts of energy input to the generator. If you can do it with exhaust heat you're fine, I don't think it works well enough to be worth taking the energy from the crank, and even if it does a few amps going through a jam jar is pissing in the wind.
I'd have thought turbocharging, or better, turbocompounding, would be a better method of exhaust energy recovery, but what do I know...
This is another one of those perpetual motion machines. Basic thermodynamics laws say this is a stupid idea. You're splitting water into H and O, a not 100% efficient process as noted by the heat also generated. Then you are taking the H and O and burning it to give you water again. Also a not 100% efficent process. But somehow you have a net gain of energy released?
It would only be useful if the hydrogen came free which it doesnt. Having to generate it makes it pointless.
As noted by several previous posters turbocharging is the solution you want as that takes the most efficiently usable heat from the exhaust and doesnt require huge amounts of extra equipment and weight or strangle the engine.
The sooner people start getting off the hydrogen bandwagon the better IMO. Hydrogen is great in nuclear fusion research and fuelling space rockets but a dead end as far as automotive fuels go.
It would only be useful if the hydrogen came free which it doesnt. Having to generate it makes it pointless.
As noted by several previous posters turbocharging is the solution you want as that takes the most efficiently usable heat from the exhaust and doesnt require huge amounts of extra equipment and weight or strangle the engine.
The sooner people start getting off the hydrogen bandwagon the better IMO. Hydrogen is great in nuclear fusion research and fuelling space rockets but a dead end as far as automotive fuels go.
Pigeon said:
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I'd have thought turbocharging, or better, turbocompounding, would be a better method of exhaust energy recovery, but what do I know...
Turbocharging doesn't actually do anything useful with the exhaust energy though, other than stuff more air (and therefore more fuel) into the engine.I'd have thought turbocharging, or better, turbocompounding, would be a better method of exhaust energy recovery, but what do I know...
I've always wondered if anyone has tried a double expansion IC engine to recover some of the exhaust energy?
Oh yes 
For a start, turbocompounding is double expansion, with the second stage of expansion in a turbine geared to the output.
There have been experiments with a reciprocating version on the same principle as a steam compound with one pot exhausting into a bigger one... problems include heat loss in transfer and the power to weight ratio being crap.
There is also a related system which uses a six-stroke cycle. You have a power stroke as normal, then you inject water to be boiled by the residual exhaust gas heat and raise the pressure so you can get something useful out of a second power stroke in the same cylinder, rather than having to transfer the gas to a bigger one.
For a start, turbocompounding is double expansion, with the second stage of expansion in a turbine geared to the output.
There have been experiments with a reciprocating version on the same principle as a steam compound with one pot exhausting into a bigger one... problems include heat loss in transfer and the power to weight ratio being crap.
There is also a related system which uses a six-stroke cycle. You have a power stroke as normal, then you inject water to be boiled by the residual exhaust gas heat and raise the pressure so you can get something useful out of a second power stroke in the same cylinder, rather than having to transfer the gas to a bigger one.
renrut said:
This is another one of those perpetual motion machines. Basic thermodynamics laws say this is a stupid idea. You're splitting water into H and O, a not 100% efficient process as noted by the heat also generated. Then you are taking the H and O and burning it to give you water again. Also a not 100% efficent process. But somehow you have a net gain of energy released?
It would only be useful if the hydrogen came free which it doesnt. Having to generate it makes it pointless.
As noted by several previous posters turbocharging is the solution you want as that takes the most efficiently usable heat from the exhaust and doesnt require huge amounts of extra equipment and weight or strangle the engine.
The sooner people start getting off the hydrogen bandwagon the better IMO. Hydrogen is great in nuclear fusion research and fuelling space rockets but a dead end as far as automotive fuels go.
There was a guy on the news the other week who is (allegedly) saving thousands of pounds a month now he has fitted a hydrogen injection system to his fleet of diesel HGV tractor units.It would only be useful if the hydrogen came free which it doesnt. Having to generate it makes it pointless.
As noted by several previous posters turbocharging is the solution you want as that takes the most efficiently usable heat from the exhaust and doesnt require huge amounts of extra equipment and weight or strangle the engine.
The sooner people start getting off the hydrogen bandwagon the better IMO. Hydrogen is great in nuclear fusion research and fuelling space rockets but a dead end as far as automotive fuels go.
The techy bloke was saying that it improves the efficiency of the burning diesel, by more than the cost of the hydrogen. I'm guessing this is similar to those who use Propane in the same way.
Free energy it is not, but cheaper than before, it would seem to be. Hydrogen is simply a more practical product to obtain than Propane, I guess, and presumably cheaper.
Admittedly I'm also guessing that said tractor units are/were already turbocharged.
Edited by dilbert on Thursday 7th August 03:56
There is a guy in kent who is a complete wa**er, i have a letter here from his company(headed notepaper, signed in ink) dated a few years ago congratulating me on how well MY prototype hydrogen unit he had on trial works, also how it was saving 17-25% fuel on there own truck, then , as if by magic, he wins a huge cash prize for having an "innovative" idea backed up by a large and respected educational institution and starts marketing his own version(which is in a box hidden away from prying eyes), this is also the same guy who told me he took one of my units to milbrook for testing and it made no difference at all to the vehicle it was fitted on to, i firmly believe that revenge is a dish best served cold, im a very patient man, his time will come
twistedsanity said:
There is a guy in kent who is a complete wa**er, i have a letter here from his company(headed notepaper, signed in ink) dated a few years ago congratulating me on how well MY prototype hydrogen unit he had on trial works, also how it was saving 17-25% fuel on there own truck, then , as if by magic, he wins a huge cash prize for having an "innovative" idea backed up by a large and respected educational institution and starts marketing his own version(which is in a box hidden away from prying eyes), this is also the same guy who told me he took one of my units to milbrook for testing and it made no difference at all to the vehicle it was fitted on to, i firmly believe that revenge is a dish best served cold, im a very patient man, his time will come
Sounds like it's the same guy, the news article was regional Kent.It seems he shafted you on your idea; hard luck. If he did it to you, I guess you could do it back. Just figure out how he's being successful at it, and emulate those bits. It's not like this isn't a growth market. He has the cash, let him make the expensive mistakes!
Edited by dilbert on Thursday 7th August 13:55
dilbert said:
renrut said:
This is another one of those perpetual motion machines. Basic thermodynamics laws say this is a stupid idea. You're splitting water into H and O, a not 100% efficient process as noted by the heat also generated. Then you are taking the H and O and burning it to give you water again. Also a not 100% efficent process. But somehow you have a net gain of energy released?
It would only be useful if the hydrogen came free which it doesnt. Having to generate it makes it pointless.
As noted by several previous posters turbocharging is the solution you want as that takes the most efficiently usable heat from the exhaust and doesnt require huge amounts of extra equipment and weight or strangle the engine.
The sooner people start getting off the hydrogen bandwagon the better IMO. Hydrogen is great in nuclear fusion research and fuelling space rockets but a dead end as far as automotive fuels go.
There was a guy on the news the other week who is (allegedly) saving thousands of pounds a month now he has fitted a hydrogen injection system to his fleet of diesel HGV tractor units.It would only be useful if the hydrogen came free which it doesnt. Having to generate it makes it pointless.
As noted by several previous posters turbocharging is the solution you want as that takes the most efficiently usable heat from the exhaust and doesnt require huge amounts of extra equipment and weight or strangle the engine.
The sooner people start getting off the hydrogen bandwagon the better IMO. Hydrogen is great in nuclear fusion research and fuelling space rockets but a dead end as far as automotive fuels go.
The techy bloke was saying that it improves the efficiency of the burning diesel, by more than the cost of the hydrogen. I'm guessing this is similar to those who use Propane in the same way.
Free energy it is not, but cheaper than before, it would seem to be. Hydrogen is simply a more practical product to obtain than Propane, I guess, and presumably cheaper.
Admittedly I'm also guessing that said tractor units are/were already turbocharged.
Edited by dilbert on Thursday 7th August 03:56
Good ol wikipedia to the rescue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen#Applications
The interesting bit is where it talks about it being an energy carrier or in fact not as they quite rightly state.
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