What Engine for 500BHP
Discussion
hello tn ,
hope this won't come across as holier than thou sort of thing , but just a little comment on the engine curve .
when i have designed cams and engine turbo installations , i have attempted to create a 4000 rpm power band ,eg , my 1310 mini has a power band of around 3800 rpm , topping out at 250 bhp on 19 psi .and a 105 lbs.ft at 2800.
where a power band starts and finishes is a personal thing , but i go by the point it comes on cam and is around 2/3rds of the way to max boost ,as the start point ,and pk power minus 10% as the end point .
your curve appears to be around 2000 to 2500rpm wide .
it might be worth looking at a smaller a/r turbine housing ,or a smaller pair of turbo's,and also a bit less cam timing , or alternatively spread the lobe seperation angle a little .
you may drop a little bhp at 5500 to 6 k ,but filling in the 1800 to 3200 rpm range would make a big diference .
if there is a fairly short duration cam in the engine ,as there should be for such a low rpm pk power ,then just dropping the a/r or turbo size would make a colossal difference .
i have not read right back through the thread ,so sorry if this has already been discussed and rejected .
hope this won't come across as holier than thou sort of thing , but just a little comment on the engine curve .
when i have designed cams and engine turbo installations , i have attempted to create a 4000 rpm power band ,eg , my 1310 mini has a power band of around 3800 rpm , topping out at 250 bhp on 19 psi .and a 105 lbs.ft at 2800.
where a power band starts and finishes is a personal thing , but i go by the point it comes on cam and is around 2/3rds of the way to max boost ,as the start point ,and pk power minus 10% as the end point .
your curve appears to be around 2000 to 2500rpm wide .
it might be worth looking at a smaller a/r turbine housing ,or a smaller pair of turbo's,and also a bit less cam timing , or alternatively spread the lobe seperation angle a little .
you may drop a little bhp at 5500 to 6 k ,but filling in the 1800 to 3200 rpm range would make a big diference .
if there is a fairly short duration cam in the engine ,as there should be for such a low rpm pk power ,then just dropping the a/r or turbo size would make a colossal difference .
i have not read right back through the thread ,so sorry if this has already been discussed and rejected .
It's worth noting that Antilag is a relatively pointless addition on anything but an low capacity inlet restricted high boost engine!
You have a reasonable capacity (3.0) and should be making 300Nm even without the turbo blowing! It's worth noting 2 other important points:
1) if you're at 2500rpm WOT, you're in the wrong gear, unless you're in 1st, however;
2) In 1st gear at 2500rpn WOT you are probably already traction limited
Personally, i'd concentrate on minimising turbo inertia / maximise blow down pulses and optimising the basic transient calibration (cut/retard spark during up-shift rather than close throttle etc) before i spent ages on a complicated ALS system that produces a load of BMEP but little power!
You have a reasonable capacity (3.0) and should be making 300Nm even without the turbo blowing! It's worth noting 2 other important points:
1) if you're at 2500rpm WOT, you're in the wrong gear, unless you're in 1st, however;
2) In 1st gear at 2500rpn WOT you are probably already traction limited
Personally, i'd concentrate on minimising turbo inertia / maximise blow down pulses and optimising the basic transient calibration (cut/retard spark during up-shift rather than close throttle etc) before i spent ages on a complicated ALS system that produces a load of BMEP but little power!
ivanhoew said:
hello tn ,
hope this won't come across as holier than thou sort of thing , but just a little comment on the engine curve .
when i have designed cams and engine turbo installations , i have attempted to create a 4000 rpm power band ,eg , my 1310 mini has a power band of around 3800 rpm , topping out at 250 bhp on 19 psi .and a 105 lbs.ft at 2800.
where a power band starts and finishes is a personal thing , but i go by the point it comes on cam and is around 2/3rds of the way to max boost ,as the start point ,and pk power minus 10% as the end point .
your curve appears to be around 2000 to 2500rpm wide .
it might be worth looking at a smaller a/r turbine housing ,or a smaller pair of turbo's,and also a bit less cam timing , or alternatively spread the lobe seperation angle a little .
you may drop a little bhp at 5500 to 6 k ,but filling in the 1800 to 3200 rpm range would make a big diference .
if there is a fairly short duration cam in the engine ,as there should be for such a low rpm pk power ,then just dropping the a/r or turbo size would make a colossal difference .
i have not read right back through the thread ,so sorry if this has already been discussed and rejected .
All comments are welcome...hope this won't come across as holier than thou sort of thing , but just a little comment on the engine curve .
when i have designed cams and engine turbo installations , i have attempted to create a 4000 rpm power band ,eg , my 1310 mini has a power band of around 3800 rpm , topping out at 250 bhp on 19 psi .and a 105 lbs.ft at 2800.
where a power band starts and finishes is a personal thing , but i go by the point it comes on cam and is around 2/3rds of the way to max boost ,as the start point ,and pk power minus 10% as the end point .
your curve appears to be around 2000 to 2500rpm wide .
it might be worth looking at a smaller a/r turbine housing ,or a smaller pair of turbo's,and also a bit less cam timing , or alternatively spread the lobe seperation angle a little .
you may drop a little bhp at 5500 to 6 k ,but filling in the 1800 to 3200 rpm range would make a big diference .
if there is a fairly short duration cam in the engine ,as there should be for such a low rpm pk power ,then just dropping the a/r or turbo size would make a colossal difference .
i have not read right back through the thread ,so sorry if this has already been discussed and rejected .
Just a little background...
The cams and cam timing are stock Alfa 147GTA ones, so no attempt has been made to design a cam to go with the turbo.
The turbo was chosen based on required power and advice from a number of turbo suppliers. Most of the suppliers also said that I would probably need a larger A/r trubine housing that the one i picked in the end, in order to make 500BHP, so I am not sure dropping to a smaller one would be the right move.
The options are 1.06, 0.82, 0.63 & I have the 0.82 housing.
A broader spread of power would be nice, but at the moment I am happy that the car is finally back on the road & running as it should, so time to enjoy it this summer while i think of what to do next.
Cams are an option, but quite expensive, a new turbine housing is a cheaper option, but I am not convinced it would help. I am however open to suggestions....
Cheers
Edited by turbonutter on Saturday 27th April 23:10
Max_Torque said:
It's worth noting that Antilag is a relatively pointless addition on anything but an low capacity inlet restricted high boost engine!
You have a reasonable capacity (3.0) and should be making 300Nm even without the turbo blowing! It's worth noting 2 other important points:
1) if you're at 2500rpm WOT, you're in the wrong gear, unless you're in 1st, however;
2) In 1st gear at 2500rpn WOT you are probably already traction limited
Personally, i'd concentrate on minimising turbo inertia / maximise blow down pulses and optimising the basic transient calibration (cut/retard spark during up-shift rather than close throttle etc) before i spent ages on a complicated ALS system that produces a load of BMEP but little power!
Point taken re the anti lag You have a reasonable capacity (3.0) and should be making 300Nm even without the turbo blowing! It's worth noting 2 other important points:
1) if you're at 2500rpm WOT, you're in the wrong gear, unless you're in 1st, however;
2) In 1st gear at 2500rpn WOT you are probably already traction limited
Personally, i'd concentrate on minimising turbo inertia / maximise blow down pulses and optimising the basic transient calibration (cut/retard spark during up-shift rather than close throttle etc) before i spent ages on a complicated ALS system that produces a load of BMEP but little power!
when I first saw the "rocket" it sounded like a nice to have toy, more than something I needed! Haven driven the car at Blyton today, it could just do with a slightly broader power band, Flat shifting is on the list & already in the ECU, I just need to install the switches & set it up...
As above the immediate plan is to just enjoy it!
turbonutter said:
All comments are welcome...
Just a little background...
The cams and cam timing are stock Alfa 147GTA ones, so no attempt has been made to design a cam to go with the turbo.
The turbo was chosen based on required power and advice from a number of turbo suppliers. Most of the suppliers also said that I would probably need a larger A/r trubine housing that the one i picked in the end, in order to make 500BHP, so I am not sure dropping to a smaller one would be the right move.
The options are 1.06, 0.82, 0.63 & I have the 0.82 housing.
A broader spread of power would be nice, but at the moment I am happy that the car is finally back on the road & running as it should, so time to enjoy it this summer while i think of what to do next.
Cams are an option, but quite expensive, a new turbine housing is a cheaper option, but I am not convinced it would help. I am however open to suggestions....
Cheers
gotcha , had a look at the map for the gt3582v , the smaller housing would be worth a try( cost depending) , but that may get a little surgy , that 82mm compressor is bigger than i would use for the rd ..another thing you might try , is just spread the cam lobes a little if its on 106d now ,maybe at 110d on both. of course it may already be on 110 depending on the alfa design.Just a little background...
The cams and cam timing are stock Alfa 147GTA ones, so no attempt has been made to design a cam to go with the turbo.
The turbo was chosen based on required power and advice from a number of turbo suppliers. Most of the suppliers also said that I would probably need a larger A/r trubine housing that the one i picked in the end, in order to make 500BHP, so I am not sure dropping to a smaller one would be the right move.
The options are 1.06, 0.82, 0.63 & I have the 0.82 housing.
A broader spread of power would be nice, but at the moment I am happy that the car is finally back on the road & running as it should, so time to enjoy it this summer while i think of what to do next.
Cams are an option, but quite expensive, a new turbine housing is a cheaper option, but I am not convinced it would help. I am however open to suggestions....
Cheers
Edited by turbonutter on Saturday 27th April 23:10
but hey ,as you say , its a hoot and your liking it ,thats what matters !
from those nos ,a quick calc..
inlet...243 d duration...113.5 inlet pk lift
ex......235 d duration ..108.5 ex pk lift
...111 degree lobe seperation angle .
cam in at 2.5 degrees retarded .
so all ok really ,except i would have it at around 2 degrees advanced for more bottom end (so 4.5 advanced from where it is now ).presently it will give a little more top end .
inlet...243 d duration...113.5 inlet pk lift
ex......235 d duration ..108.5 ex pk lift
...111 degree lobe seperation angle .
cam in at 2.5 degrees retarded .
so all ok really ,except i would have it at around 2 degrees advanced for more bottom end (so 4.5 advanced from where it is now ).presently it will give a little more top end .
ivanhoew said:
from those nos ,a quick calc..
inlet...243 d duration...113.5 inlet pk lift
ex......235 d duration ..108.5 ex pk lift
...111 degree lobe seperation angle .
cam in at 2.5 degrees retarded .
so all ok really ,except i would have it at around 2 degrees advanced for more bottom end (so 4.5 advanced from where it is now ).presently it will give a little more top end .
Thanks for that, its a bit more clear now.inlet...243 d duration...113.5 inlet pk lift
ex......235 d duration ..108.5 ex pk lift
...111 degree lobe seperation angle .
cam in at 2.5 degrees retarded .
so all ok really ,except i would have it at around 2 degrees advanced for more bottom end (so 4.5 advanced from where it is now ).presently it will give a little more top end .
I will look into how much I can move the cam, as I know if i move it too far the home signal drops out of sync with the crank trigger and causes a missfire - the ecu needs to see the crank trigger at the same time as the home. (I know this as I have just spent a week checking sensors when the problem was the cam belt had jumped)
Cheers
Neil
Max_Torque said:
What EMS are you running again?
(seems unusual that the sync and ref edge positions are not calibratable?)
Haltech Sport 2000.(seems unusual that the sync and ref edge positions are not calibratable?)
The trigger options are preprogrammed in the ECU and the Motronic 60-2 + 1 Home requires that the crank trigger happens during the home signal.
When the belt jumped, the crank trigger was right on the edge of the home signal and as the revs passed 5000, it just fell out of the "window" causing the missfire.
There is no option in the HAltech ECU to change this. The trigger patterns have to be selected from the drop down menu...
turbonutter said:
Thanks for that, its a bit more clear now.
I will look into how much I can move the cam, as I know if i move it too far the home signal drops out of sync with the crank trigger and causes a missfire - the ecu needs to see the crank trigger at the same time as the home. (I know this as I have just spent a week checking sensors when the problem was the cam belt had jumped)
Cheers
Neil
hi neil , maybe see if haltech can do a box to change the time of the cam pulse?I will look into how much I can move the cam, as I know if i move it too far the home signal drops out of sync with the crank trigger and causes a missfire - the ecu needs to see the crank trigger at the same time as the home. (I know this as I have just spent a week checking sensors when the problem was the cam belt had jumped)
Cheers
Neil
ivanhoew said:
turbonutter said:
Thanks for that, its a bit more clear now.
I will look into how much I can move the cam, as I know if i move it too far the home signal drops out of sync with the crank trigger and causes a missfire - the ecu needs to see the crank trigger at the same time as the home. (I know this as I have just spent a week checking sensors when the problem was the cam belt had jumped)
Cheers
Neil
hi neil , maybe see if haltech can do a box to change the time of the cam pulse?I will look into how much I can move the cam, as I know if i move it too far the home signal drops out of sync with the crank trigger and causes a missfire - the ecu needs to see the crank trigger at the same time as the home. (I know this as I have just spent a week checking sensors when the problem was the cam belt had jumped)
Cheers
Neil
Some video from Blyton....
Early in the day while i was getting used to teh car/track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g83-lEX324o
The first time out on full boost...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=557cRQ2d4oQ
Liquid Knight said:
Do you have an aproximate quarter mile time yet?
I jokingly challenged Andy Frost to a handicap race and he blew his engine up instead.
With all the probems i have had in the last weeks, i was just glad to get the car sorted and running properly for the track day - i didnt log anything or remember to do times. I jokingly challenged Andy Frost to a handicap race and he blew his engine up instead.
I went out today, to dry the car off before putting it away while i am away at work, and tried to get a time,
Clocked 8.6 0-100 & 12.2 1/4mile, but that was wheel spin all the way in 2nd and third, so the tyres werent warm & when i got home i noticed the boost was turned down
Now its raining, so no chance for another go....
But I think we can safely say in the 11's for the quarter if i get it hooked up in third properly on full boost.
Liquid Knight said:
I was aiming for 15 seconds with my Panda but with the second choice engine 18-19 is more likely.
Fancy giving me a ten second head start at the £999?
The prize will be one of my Giant Jaffa cakes and I'll see if I can get the PPC team involved to make a feature of it.
I am back to work tomorrow, so hopefully I can get back in time for the £999 challenge....Fancy giving me a ten second head start at the £999?
The prize will be one of my Giant Jaffa cakes and I'll see if I can get the PPC team involved to make a feature of it.
18-19 sec minus 11-12sec = seven second head start, then we should cross the line together all be it at slightly different speeds
turbonutter said:
Haltech Sport 2000.
The trigger options are preprogrammed in the ECU and the Motronic 60-2 + 1 Home requires that the crank trigger happens during the home signal.
When the belt jumped, the crank trigger was right on the edge of the home signal and as the revs passed 5000, it just fell out of the "window" causing the missfire.
There is no option in the HAltech ECU to change this. The trigger patterns have to be selected from the drop down menu...
Have you asked Haltech about this ? It seems surprising that it is so inflexible in this area. Unless one of their generic multitooth settings could be used instead ?The trigger options are preprogrammed in the ECU and the Motronic 60-2 + 1 Home requires that the crank trigger happens during the home signal.
When the belt jumped, the crank trigger was right on the edge of the home signal and as the revs passed 5000, it just fell out of the "window" causing the missfire.
There is no option in the HAltech ECU to change this. The trigger patterns have to be selected from the drop down menu...
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