RE: Electric Superchargers On The Way

[mrmr96]

bosscerbera said:

A good point, almost lost under attitude which makes you sound like an idiot.

Haha, cheers man.

[Skodaku]

bakerjuk said:

vauxhallloving said:

Im sick to death of all this "GREEN" bullst! fk off with it!!! We have been coming out of a ice age since before man kind! I cant wait to the day I die at least I wont have to listen to this bullst all the while! Nowonder the car industry is up the wall having to waste millions on "less CO2" emmisions. Stop cutting the fking trees down maybe that would be a start. IDIOTS

Off topic I know but it pisses me off sorry

Edited by vauxhallloving on Wednesday 23 September 17:52

+1

+ another 1 and, I suspect, lots more. It is all rather tedious now.

[The Black Flash]

JonRB said:

The Black Flash said:

The advantage of being able to switch it on or off are obvious though.

preferably with a switch on the gear-lever Max Max style.

Oh hell yeah.

[The Black Flash]

SleeperCell said:

JonRB said:

The Black Flash said:

The advantage of being able to switch it on or off are obvious though.

preferably with a switch on the gear-lever Max Max style.

Some superchargers do this anyway via a clutch system, the Toyota ones from the 80s used to be ecu controlled and only activated at higher throttle openings but you could always rerig the wiring to switch them on and off mad max style.

Yup, modern mercs do as well, with a clever magnetic clutch, so that it's not engaged at idle / low throttle IIRC, and you don't get the parasitic losses when you don't need the boost.

[The Black Flash]

gareth_r said:

dwilkie said:

That one you linked though draws a sizable voltage and a huge current for something in a car...

Precisely. Doesn't the Merc SLR use something like 100bhp to drive its supercharger at peak power?

Edited by gareth_r on Wednesday 23 September 14:19

This is what I was getting at - the power drain tends to be huge. But I suppose if it's just for filling in the lower end of the rev range, maybe it's just small enough for the wiring to be manageable.

[chuntington101]

If you really want instant boost at any RPM then you need to run a second engine driving the supercharger (SC). it could be similar to what they did on Scrapheap Chalange last week. ittle deisel engine drving a Procharger F3 blower or even a 8.3ltr Whipple supercharger! then even the biggest V8s can have instant boost @ 30psi. lol

or the goverment could make nitrous free! then we could all fit a 50bhp N2O system to 1.0 ltr engines (the boy racers ahve proven how effective this can be.....not) and have instant power at the press of a button.

Chris.

[chuntington101]

If you really want instant boost at any RPM then you need to run a second engine driving the supercharger (SC). it could be similar to what they did on Scrapheap Chalange last week. ittle deisel engine drving a Procharger F3 blower or even a 8.3ltr Whipple supercharger! then even the biggest V8s can have instant boost @ 30psi. lol

or the goverment could make nitrous free! then we could all fit a 50bhp N2O system to 1.0 ltr engines (the boy racers ahve proven how effective this can be.....not) and have instant power at the press of a button.

Chris.

[xyphod]

This is not any different to a standard hybrid car. At cruise, the engine will charge your battery (when it is running at it's most efficent state).
This energy stored energy will then be used to spin up the supercharger when you need it at low revs, rather than turning a motor driving the wheels.
As this thing develops though I could imagine a hybrid belt/battery supercharger, i.e. once the engine has reached sufficient rpm a clutch type system disengages the electric motor and engages the belt.
Best of both worlds.

[Oddball RS]

I think a lot of people here are missing the point slightly.

It is not a 'fan' ala ebay.

It is an electrically driven supercharger.

Motors now drive cars, of course they can turn the torque and rpm needed for forced induction.

The theory has been around for years, the product long overdue, i think within 10 years you will see all ancilliary devices become electric and no longer engine driven, AC comps, water pumps, power steering pumps, etc etc

They will give better control and be more efficient and anything that keeps the internal combustion engine gets my vote.

[Munter]

Futuramic said:

Hig RPM motors get very hot. They also burn out quickly under load, no-one's mentioned this yet.

Unless you use a low RPM high torque motor and a few cogs before the turbine.

[peterperkins]

What could be quite clever is have a three stage system.

With an electric motor in between the intake and exhaust side of a standard turbo coupled to the shaft.

A small 12V supercapacitor to store some energy for quick spin up.

Then you get a number of operating modes.

1) Electric turbo mode when motor provides power to spin up the compressor at low engine speed.

2) Electric recharge mode when say at crusing speed and exhaust drives turbo with electric motor extracting some power to recharge caps.

3) Under extreme engine load both exhaust and electric motor power the turbo giving max output.

Right I'm off to the patent office.

[mrmr96]

xyphod said:

This is not any different to a standard hybrid car. At cruise, the engine will charge your battery (when it is running at it's most efficent state).
This energy stored energy will then be used to spin up the supercharger when you need it at low revs, rather than turning a motor driving the wheels.
As this thing develops though I could imagine a hybrid belt/battery supercharger, i.e. once the engine has reached sufficient rpm a clutch type system disengages the electric motor and engages the belt.
Best of both worlds.

It's a fair bit different from a standard hybrid. The engine does charge the battery, but it then then powers the supercharger, not the wheels. The supercharger doesn't provide any extra power, but it does ALLOW you to burn more fuel. So the performance increase doesn't come from a regenerative systems, it comes from burning more petrol.

In reference to a more efficient drive system, I think that a rather than an electric/clutch-belt system, you'd be better off with a CVT arrangement, so the charger is belt driven but still speed independant.

[xyphod]

Now uprade the starter motor so this is what drives the supercharger (as well as turning the car over) and this hunk of metel and wires can actually be put to use more often rather than just being extra weight

[xyphod]

True it does doesn't provide more power but it unloads the engine (i.e. doesn't need to power the supercharger as in a conventional system), things like regenerative breaking would also mean the engine would not need to waste so much energy charging the battery.

The ECU would have to do a lot of work though. Controlling the battery charge rate (from engine and breaks), controlling the cut over from battery powered to belt/shaft driven supercharger, and well as fuelling.

Starting the car would have some extra noises. Turn key, hear compressor start up, then engine turns over. Put into gear and start off. Bang instant torque, then clunk, compressor is now belt/shaft driven whine continues power keeps increasing.

[chuntington101]

peterperkins said:

What could be quite clever is have a three stage system.

With an electric motor in between the intake and exhaust side of a standard turbo coupled to the shaft.

A small 12V supercapacitor to store some energy for quick spin up.

Then you get a number of operating modes.

1) Electric turbo mode when motor provides power to spin up the compressor at low engine speed.

2) Electric recharge mode when say at crusing speed and exhaust drives turbo with electric motor extracting some power to recharge caps.

3) Under extreme engine load both exhaust and electric motor power the turbo giving max output.

Right I'm off to the patent office.

Why? i hate asking this question but sometines you have to. Modern VGT and sequential turbos are VERY effective and can give you boost from pretty much idle. Look that the BMW deisel turbo systems. also VGT is another option. this works by altering the AR of the turbine housing and thus making the turbo spool MUCH faster. once boost is reached the VGT open up the AR and allows the turbo to breath and not be a restiction. the above methods are cheap (ish) and CAN work independently of other systems (ie ECU).

in the futer when we are driving around with 72volt electronic systesm this should be a lot easier to do. i just dont see anyone getting 40bhp + out of an electric motor driving and supercharger with it at the moment. how long could a system like that last with current alternators? how many alternators would you need to get that kind of power?

dont get me wrong i think its a lovely idea, instant boost whenever you want, lower intake and under bonnet temps, compresors you can mount anywhere in the chassis.......

Chris.

[mwoo]

it's horseh1t.

A conventional turbo runs off the wasted energy contained in the gas pressure from the exhaust gas. ie the power needed to drive it is essentially nil.

An electric supercharger will require power to run it, which will put a load on the alternator, meaning it's got to be bigger and heavier. To the detriment of economy.

Honestly these idiots have no idea of basic physics. Getting more efficiency is admirable - it allows better economy (if that's your thing) or higher power per capacity (yes please).

Using otherwise-wasted energy with a turbo is a very very good thing indeed and IMHO should be made mandatory on all road cars. And the bigger the better, which can only mean anti-lag, which is better still.

I nominate myself as Minister for Transport. Anyone second me?

[annodomini2]

peterperkins said:

What could be quite clever is have a three stage system.

With an electric motor in between the intake and exhaust side of a standard turbo coupled to the shaft.

A small 12V supercapacitor to store some energy for quick spin up.

Then you get a number of operating modes.

1) Electric turbo mode when motor provides power to spin up the compressor at low engine speed.

2) Electric recharge mode when say at crusing speed and exhaust drives turbo with electric motor extracting some power to recharge caps.

3) Under extreme engine load both exhaust and electric motor power the turbo giving max output.

Right I'm off to the patent office.

Garrett were working on this a few years ago

[the Fantom]

This subject also reminds me, isn't it time we started to have higher voltage standard electrics on cars? 12v is pathetic and to get any power the current needs to be large. Surely time we went to 24v at least or maybe more.

edit - just read Chris's comment above, also mentions higher voltage.

Also I've been giving this some thought since this topic began. I know a guy who is an ex-Jaguar exec and working with a group on infinitely variable transmission. The difference from CVT? Well it goes forward, reverse and with a much wider range of ratios. I think the IVT system attached to a supercharger could allow quicker more reactive boost from tickover to the redline all ECU controlled.

Edited by the Fantom on Friday 25th September 14:09

[ctallchris]

the Fantom said:

This subject also reminds me, isn't it time we started to have higher voltage standard electrics on cars? 12v is pathetic and to get any power the current needs to be large. Surely time we went to 24v at least or maybe more.

4 reasons
1) legacy systems - every electrical component would have to be redesigned
2) All companies would probably have to agree to any changes who shared components
3) H+S Higher voltages increase electric shock risk / risk of failure in electrical systems increasing the current does not. generally you want any electronics that can potentially get wet to have as low a voltage as possible.
4) up until now the only high power application in a car was the starter motor and the spark plugs.

In electric cars or cars where they start having electric power steering pumps / aircon compressors etc this will probably end up changing but i suspect no one wants to go first because it will mean they have to redesign a load of parts and if they need to buy third party components they will have to pay their suppliers to change their designs.

[Huff]

It'll make more sense to do such things in hybrids , which already have a HV battery pack of some capacity. It would also fit the 'tiny engine/high specific output' intended market. But unfortunatley, its not going to work for the rest of us.

Shame, I'd quite fancy four for my E34 540...