Sintered ceramic metallic vs organic on normal car?
Discussion
Anyone have a 'normal' car that they have fitted one to?
I've read on fairly sporty cars with heavy agressive clutches already, they can be too harsh and jerky etc, but what about a normal shopping trolley car?
Just curious on others experiences if they have used one on a tuned up 'normal' car, where the clutches are already super light, super soft and friendly...
Cheers
Dave
I've read on fairly sporty cars with heavy agressive clutches already, they can be too harsh and jerky etc, but what about a normal shopping trolley car?
Just curious on others experiences if they have used one on a tuned up 'normal' car, where the clutches are already super light, super soft and friendly...
Cheers
Dave
Ah ok, guess I'll just have to wait till it's in and see 
It's a Sachs one for my car, it was fairly expensive, pretty sure it's a sprung centre with full face friction (no paddle type), so hopefully the best of the worst, if that makes sense.
Currently the clutch is slipping from 1800rpm > 3200rpm in any gear from about half throttle, so clearly my standard clutch won't cut it... just fitted all my intercooler and put on a hefty remap file.
I think a better pressure plate was probably a better way to go, but apparently the cable can take more strain (not good in a Peugeot), sourcing one is hard (not seen anything), and the pedal might be heavier too...
Will report back just fyi next week once it's all bunged on and turned up more. Just hoping it doesn't make me look like a learner driver when setting off
Not fussed about the rattle noise, it's a Peugeot, it'll blend in
Dave
It's a Sachs one for my car, it was fairly expensive, pretty sure it's a sprung centre with full face friction (no paddle type), so hopefully the best of the worst, if that makes sense.
Currently the clutch is slipping from 1800rpm > 3200rpm in any gear from about half throttle, so clearly my standard clutch won't cut it... just fitted all my intercooler and put on a hefty remap file.
I think a better pressure plate was probably a better way to go, but apparently the cable can take more strain (not good in a Peugeot), sourcing one is hard (not seen anything), and the pedal might be heavier too...
Will report back just fyi next week once it's all bunged on and turned up more. Just hoping it doesn't make me look like a learner driver when setting off
Not fussed about the rattle noise, it's a Peugeot, it'll blend in
Dave
It's 160bhp tops at 4000rpm ish, but it's looking at over 275lbft at 2250rpm, from standard outputs of 90bhp/165lbft...
I think the main problem is Peugeot, when they did my clutch 35,000 miles ago, fitted a cheap part, as it was Peugeot *Express, not Peugeot proper (the quotes were £200 different)
But, a friend running a very similar setup, brand new OEM clutch, said his was ok, but the high torque at motorway acceleration speeds (ie, through peak torque very slowly with lots of load), would cause it to overheat and start slipping, and that was at about 240-250lbft...
I think maybe it is a bit overkill, but there just are not many uprated clutches out there for these cars, well, the one I had is the only uprated plate I could find at all, and it's coming in from Sachs in Germany...
Time will tell anyway, it should be going on this Tuesday. Like I said though, it's already a super nice clutch in standard form, so even if it's twice as bad it'll still be pretty acceptable imho... I'll just have to drive it a little more knowingly, if that makes sense. Less of that half way house, and either in or out...
Just considering also that the labour to get a clutch in/out is expensive (my brother is doing it for some beer tokens), that fitting an OE friction plate (that I have) only to find it slip, it's another load of beer tokens and time to then get another clutch plate and fit it etc... thought I'd just skip that step which is probably going to happen and just get a high friction clutch...
Fingers crossed
Dave
I think the main problem is Peugeot, when they did my clutch 35,000 miles ago, fitted a cheap part, as it was Peugeot *Express, not Peugeot proper (the quotes were £200 different)
But, a friend running a very similar setup, brand new OEM clutch, said his was ok, but the high torque at motorway acceleration speeds (ie, through peak torque very slowly with lots of load), would cause it to overheat and start slipping, and that was at about 240-250lbft...
I think maybe it is a bit overkill, but there just are not many uprated clutches out there for these cars, well, the one I had is the only uprated plate I could find at all, and it's coming in from Sachs in Germany...
Time will tell anyway, it should be going on this Tuesday. Like I said though, it's already a super nice clutch in standard form, so even if it's twice as bad it'll still be pretty acceptable imho... I'll just have to drive it a little more knowingly, if that makes sense. Less of that half way house, and either in or out...
Just considering also that the labour to get a clutch in/out is expensive (my brother is doing it for some beer tokens), that fitting an OE friction plate (that I have) only to find it slip, it's another load of beer tokens and time to then get another clutch plate and fit it etc... thought I'd just skip that step which is probably going to happen and just get a high friction clutch...
Fingers crossed
Dave
I think the one I am getting is the sintered metallic one here...
http://www.sachsperformance.com/EU/sachs-race-perf...
Just curious, if anyone knows that is, how a normal organic can be significantly better just on it's own, without more clamping pressure? Can the coeffs of friction be a fair bit higher on a 'better' organic plate?
I wonder why my supplier didn't mention Sachs do an uprated organic too... considering it's actually more expensive too it's not like they wanted to sell the fancier one
Might give them a bell at lunch time
Dave
http://www.sachsperformance.com/EU/sachs-race-perf...
Just curious, if anyone knows that is, how a normal organic can be significantly better just on it's own, without more clamping pressure? Can the coeffs of friction be a fair bit higher on a 'better' organic plate?
I wonder why my supplier didn't mention Sachs do an uprated organic too... considering it's actually more expensive too it's not like they wanted to sell the fancier one
Might give them a bell at lunch time
Dave
Well, what a task and a half fitting that was!
Not sure if there are any special procedures for running it in, or if it's natural for it to be a tad slipping when new, or when cold.
Anyway, at first it slipped a lot, as much as my old one. Then after 20 mins and 15 miles it slipped not a sausage, then was fine for another 25 miles and 45mins... then after sitting for 3hrs and driving it's slipping a bit again, and then when warm it's ok again...
So, maybe it's still bedding in and will become less temperature temperamental with time. Or maybe they are just slippy when cold?!
As for driveability, it's fine apart from 1st gear and reverse really, 1st gear you need to be smooth otherwise it judders a bit, reverse it just seems to judder full stop so I need to try optimise my momentum reversing technique rather than constant slipping
When it grips right though, it grips damn well, and the shift is very solid and the pedal is very light (lighter than before with my new OEM pressure plate, and the thrust bearing was shafted on the old clutch too)
Now I am a little interested in others experiences with these clutches wrt to bedding in and temps. It's basically a four paddle sprung centred variety...
Thanks
Dave
Not sure if there are any special procedures for running it in, or if it's natural for it to be a tad slipping when new, or when cold.
Anyway, at first it slipped a lot, as much as my old one. Then after 20 mins and 15 miles it slipped not a sausage, then was fine for another 25 miles and 45mins... then after sitting for 3hrs and driving it's slipping a bit again, and then when warm it's ok again...
So, maybe it's still bedding in and will become less temperature temperamental with time. Or maybe they are just slippy when cold?!
As for driveability, it's fine apart from 1st gear and reverse really, 1st gear you need to be smooth otherwise it judders a bit, reverse it just seems to judder full stop so I need to try optimise my momentum reversing technique rather than constant slipping
When it grips right though, it grips damn well, and the shift is very solid and the pedal is very light (lighter than before with my new OEM pressure plate, and the thrust bearing was shafted on the old clutch too)
Now I am a little interested in others experiences with these clutches wrt to bedding in and temps. It's basically a four paddle sprung centred variety...
Thanks
Dave
Well, I drove again today about 30 miles, slipped a bit (but not much) till it was warm, then was fine after say 10 miles into the journey.
Then I let my brother have a spin, he ragged the tits off it, then when he got back I just propped the clutch down, had Sunday dinner, left it about three and a half hours, and now on the way back it was fine...
Will just see how it goes tomorrow.
Just can't wait to get down to refining the mapping now, G-tech and diagnostics gear at the ready to see how much torque I can get through it
Target is 160bhp/270lbft... and fingers crossed for 1100kg once the aircon is fully removed and the spare wheel replaced with tyre repair foam
/\/\/\/\
Yep, ever since I started bedding my normal brakes in (the heating/cooling way, not the 500 steady miles way) I've found them much better in operation and having a better lifetime. I expect the same applies to clutches, so probably taking it gently at first until you can warm it safely, and then giving it a good warming and then letting it cool un-clamped is probably a good plan...
I just went out and gave it beans and could feel the clutch literally grating as it slipped like a rasp on some wood, so no doubt that left a less than ideal surface... so hopefully it's settling in better now with a good heating and then settled cooling period
Why they don't write the ideal way to bed them in on the box is beyond me, because in the case of more performance clutches it's clearly important to get the best from them!
Dave
Then I let my brother have a spin, he ragged the tits off it, then when he got back I just propped the clutch down, had Sunday dinner, left it about three and a half hours, and now on the way back it was fine...
Will just see how it goes tomorrow.
Just can't wait to get down to refining the mapping now, G-tech and diagnostics gear at the ready to see how much torque I can get through it
Target is 160bhp/270lbft... and fingers crossed for 1100kg once the aircon is fully removed and the spare wheel replaced with tyre repair foam
/\/\/\/\
Yep, ever since I started bedding my normal brakes in (the heating/cooling way, not the 500 steady miles way) I've found them much better in operation and having a better lifetime. I expect the same applies to clutches, so probably taking it gently at first until you can warm it safely, and then giving it a good warming and then letting it cool un-clamped is probably a good plan...
I just went out and gave it beans and could feel the clutch literally grating as it slipped like a rasp on some wood, so no doubt that left a less than ideal surface... so hopefully it's settling in better now with a good heating and then settled cooling period
Why they don't write the ideal way to bed them in on the box is beyond me, because in the case of more performance clutches it's clearly important to get the best from them!
Dave
Arghhhh
Did some 3rd gear starts (about five) then reversed onto my drive with the handbrake on and slipping it, left the clutch in for almost three hours, let it re-clamp, then left it overnight. Still slipping, but once warm it's fine, say after 5-10 mins... really really solid, with really positive engagement, and it seems to mellow too, juddering less etc.
Is it just in their nature to be a bit crap when cold?
I'm just going to ring the re-seller this lunch time and ask a few q's, and just start driving it normally and hope it just beds in better (it does seem to be slowly getting better, but I'm sure it should just work right away, and I'm worried that there *may* be an issue elsewhere... ie, is my flywheel damaged from the old organic plate slipping like a bugger now and again the week before?)
Sachs website rates it at 350Nm, and I'm probably running 340Nm as it is... but I have a friend with an OE spec normal clutch (LuK) that takes similar torque, and just slips a tiny bit at high loads in 5th around peak torque...
Could my new OEM pressure plate take a while to bed in too? I heard that as the friction plates wear the clamping force increases as the springs attitude changes as they change pitch.
Hmmmmm, all an interesting learning curve, I'm happy to buy parts, it's just swapping clutches on these cars is a complete arse of a job!
Dave
Did some 3rd gear starts (about five) then reversed onto my drive with the handbrake on and slipping it, left the clutch in for almost three hours, let it re-clamp, then left it overnight. Still slipping, but once warm it's fine, say after 5-10 mins... really really solid, with really positive engagement, and it seems to mellow too, juddering less etc.
Is it just in their nature to be a bit crap when cold?
I'm just going to ring the re-seller this lunch time and ask a few q's, and just start driving it normally and hope it just beds in better (it does seem to be slowly getting better, but I'm sure it should just work right away, and I'm worried that there *may* be an issue elsewhere... ie, is my flywheel damaged from the old organic plate slipping like a bugger now and again the week before?)
Sachs website rates it at 350Nm, and I'm probably running 340Nm as it is... but I have a friend with an OE spec normal clutch (LuK) that takes similar torque, and just slips a tiny bit at high loads in 5th around peak torque...
Could my new OEM pressure plate take a while to bed in too? I heard that as the friction plates wear the clamping force increases as the springs attitude changes as they change pitch.
Hmmmmm, all an interesting learning curve, I'm happy to buy parts, it's just swapping clutches on these cars is a complete arse of a job!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 30th September 11:48
Flywheel skimmed.
Haha, no.
It said nothing on any instructions!? Indeed there were no instructions at all, with either the OEM Valeo kit or the Sachs Racing friction plate.
I think it's a tad too late for that
So is that skimmed as in, machined back (surely this reduces clamping pressure?), or just a fine top-layer taken back? (ie a bit of wet and dry )
I have a spare flywheel too, though swapping that would have been a bigger ball ache!
Well, it grips ok once warm, so I'm guessing it's ok, I assume it's just cooking off the old organic crap on the flywheel... (I guess it's a bit like slotted discs helping clean the pads, but backwards, maybe the paddles will help clean the mated surfaces (pressure plate and flywheel)?!? )
Dave
Haha, no.
It said nothing on any instructions!? Indeed there were no instructions at all, with either the OEM Valeo kit or the Sachs Racing friction plate.
I think it's a tad too late for that
So is that skimmed as in, machined back (surely this reduces clamping pressure?), or just a fine top-layer taken back? (ie a bit of wet and dry
)I have a spare flywheel too, though swapping that would have been a bigger ball ache!
Well, it grips ok once warm, so I'm guessing it's ok, I assume it's just cooking off the old organic crap on the flywheel... (I guess it's a bit like slotted discs helping clean the pads, but backwards, maybe the paddles will help clean the mated surfaces (pressure plate and flywheel)?!? )
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 30th September 12:25
Haha, it probably is punishment.
Just went out at lunch and drove it a bit more agressively, and it was fine within three miles and a few mins.
Maybe they do take some heat to get going fully, but because I can drive quickly enough for my daily commute without ever leaving 5th gear or using more than half throttle and 2500rpm, it just doesn't get hot
Anyway, just gonna bloody drive it now... just want it gripping for when I do my remapping tests, trying to perfect the devils breath map (smoke) to get the ideal balance between puffs of smoke and response
Then it's onto the rail pressure adjustments
Brummm... cough cough
dave
Just went out at lunch and drove it a bit more agressively, and it was fine within three miles and a few mins.
Maybe they do take some heat to get going fully, but because I can drive quickly enough for my daily commute without ever leaving 5th gear or using more than half throttle and 2500rpm, it just doesn't get hot
Anyway, just gonna bloody drive it now... just want it gripping for when I do my remapping tests, trying to perfect the devils breath map (smoke) to get the ideal balance between puffs of smoke and response
Then it's onto the rail pressure adjustments
Brummm... cough cough
dave
PhillipM said:
Shouldn't have to warm through that much to get gripping, wouldn't be much good in the rally cars otherwise!
They do need a bit of heat but setting off smartly should sort that.
I can still set off in 2nd gear with a nice lift of the clutch in 2nd, fairly smoothly, against idle rpm's...They do need a bit of heat but setting off smartly should sort that.
Edited by PhillipM on Tuesday 30th September 13:37
Maybe it's because it's a 'slow' engine with short gearing, there just isn't ever much heat getting into it through significant speed differential!?
I guess I just need to drive it like I stole it a bit, or start every journey with a 2nd gear launch
Thanks for all the help so far anyway, much appreciated
Dave
Just an update.
Seems lots better now. It slips the smallest bit when cold, for maybe a gear or two, then it's solid as a rock.
Superb...
It does seem quite temperature dependant though wrt to bite. Whenever you really start to let it cool off, say in town traffic, it's a bit of an arse... once it's warm, say on my fairly open fast drive to work, it's a joy at junctions etc, no real judder. Reverse is fairly amusing with judder. It's really a case of get rolling off the throttle and let it trundle around fully engaged.
When it's stone cold it doesn't seem so bad either, but I drive gently then anyway, and I can rev-match and be steady.
Now trying to get really good at rev matching 1st to 2nd
Thanks for the help/advice wrt my clutch issues everyone
Dave
Seems lots better now. It slips the smallest bit when cold, for maybe a gear or two, then it's solid as a rock.
Superb...
It does seem quite temperature dependant though wrt to bite. Whenever you really start to let it cool off, say in town traffic, it's a bit of an arse... once it's warm, say on my fairly open fast drive to work, it's a joy at junctions etc, no real judder. Reverse is fairly amusing with judder. It's really a case of get rolling off the throttle and let it trundle around fully engaged.
When it's stone cold it doesn't seem so bad either, but I drive gently then anyway, and I can rev-match and be steady.
Now trying to get really good at rev matching 1st to 2nd
Thanks for the help/advice wrt my clutch issues everyone
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 8th October 16:47
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