Yes the Rumours are TRUE!
Discussion
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I am advised that the Australians are running OE on the big Turbo conversions which they measure at 'over 1000 BHP' but open to any advice. To date no problems at all with current power except a diff rebuild due to plates 'sticking' and had to uprate clutch and flywheel. Out of interest I ran a 1000+ BHP Pontiac Big Block with a charger in the late 90's with no drive-train problems.
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The problem is the monaros and HSV's have 2 piece drive shafts which makes them inherently weaker than the single piece you probably had on your charger (sounds like an awesome machine!). It's probably been fine uptil now as it can take about 550 bhp before problems start and as you've only being adding that 250hp occasionaly it's been alright. When you add a turbo which will make massive torque on its own, not to mention the 250 shot, there is no way in hell the drive-shaft is going to surive. I would also reccomend you look into axle stubs if you plan on dragging it as bad wheel hop could snap your axle in two.
I am advised that the Australians are running OE on the big Turbo conversions which they measure at 'over 1000 BHP' but open to any advice. To date no problems at all with current power except a diff rebuild due to plates 'sticking' and had to uprate clutch and flywheel. Out of interest I ran a 1000+ BHP Pontiac Big Block with a charger in the late 90's with no drive-train problems.
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The problem is the monaros and HSV's have 2 piece drive shafts which makes them inherently weaker than the single piece you probably had on your charger (sounds like an awesome machine!). It's probably been fine uptil now as it can take about 550 bhp before problems start and as you've only being adding that 250hp occasionaly it's been alright. When you add a turbo which will make massive torque on its own, not to mention the 250 shot, there is no way in hell the drive-shaft is going to surive. I would also reccomend you look into axle stubs if you plan on dragging it as bad wheel hop could snap your axle in two.
Dan_S V8 said:
The problem is the monaros and HSV's have 2 piece drive shafts which makes them inherently weaker than the single piece you probably had on your charger (sounds like an awesome machine!). It's probably been fine uptil now as it can take about 550 bhp before problems start and as you've only being adding that 250hp occasionaly it's been alright. When you add a turbo which will make massive torque on its own, not to mention the 250 shot, there is no way in hell the drive-shaft is going to surive. I would also reccomend you look into axle stubs if you plan on dragging it as bad wheel hop could snap your axle in two.
Many thanks indeed for that
I will take your advise >> Edited by oe_cosgrove on Thursday 6th April 22:21
Don't know, it must be luck,good fortune etc. The box doesn't have a high torque rating from GM in the first place so stuffing a shed load of extra tq must shorten it's life or damage it prematurely. The 5 speed Tremec TKO has a much higher tq rating, 600lbs/ft iirc. The t56 was one of my favourite boxes until I did more research but I won't even bother to fit the one I have. With modest boost it should survive but anything half decent will destroy it. clutches!
Boosted.
! Boosted.
Boosted LS1 said:
Don't know, it must be luck,good fortune etc. The box doesn't have a high torque rating from GM in the first place so stuffing a shed load of extra tq must shorten it's life or damage it prematurely. The 5 speed Tremec TKO has a much higher tq rating, 600lbs/ft iirc. The t56 was one of my favourite boxes until I did more research but I won't even bother to fit the one I have. With modest boost it should survive but anything half decent will destroy it. clutches
Boosted.
Funny you should mention the Tremec 5 speed.........I have another 'little project car' which has this box and have had problems! I always rated the Tremec 6 speed above the 5 and thought I'd been proven right! Thanks for the info
Well that maybe the case but I rely on Tremec themselves for their torque guidelines as a starting point and then add an extra 50lbs/ft as they will have a built in failsafe factor. I'm not even going to use the TKO. I'm starting to get excited about GM400's with a trans brake. Neck breaking accelleration or what! Anyway, this isn't my thread so I don't want to hijack it we can talk transmissions elsewhere.
Boosted.
Boosted.
No problem, if you want further info check out the drivetrain section on www.ls1gto.com and you'll also find good places where you can buy single piece drive-shafts and half-shafts etc.
BTW don't go balls out on my advice, I'm only 16 so I can't exactly class myself an expert, I've just done too much reading for my own good! I was also very impressed with your Nitrous when I heard about, my Dad (booster on here) and I have something of a similar vein coming from the USA
BTW don't go balls out on my advice, I'm only 16 so I can't exactly class myself an expert, I've just done too much reading for my own good! I was also very impressed with your Nitrous when I heard about, my Dad (booster on here) and I have something of a similar vein coming from the USA
T56 is a strong box.... I know I havent done a lot of miles, but mine has survived so far.
If it breaks it breaks, then I'll worry about it, but I think the 450lbft rating is quite conservative.
A lot of the yanks break them as they cant drive sticks lol
No, but they try to flat shift, launch at very sticky tracks with good tyres etc. A little bit of mechanical sypmathy should see the box last pretty well.
Strange thing is, and Ive queried with no answers, that a lot of the uprated builds with the T56 actually mostly refer to shifting mechanism parts, rather than bearings or gears. So why does that suddenly make a 450lbft box, safe for say 650lbft ???
From what I gather weakest links in Monaro drivetrain are the diff axle output stubs, perhaps followed by CV shafts ( excl clutch ) No idea if the HSV follows the same. Although I wouldnt like to be pushing the standard propshaft too hard either with decnet tyres etc.
People do offer 1 piece propshaft solutions ( eg Diff Techniks ), but for any UK car IMO they are totally useless. Shaft length will give a very low critical speed, which may limit cars to around 150/160mph, which is useless.
The yanks may think thats acceptable, I do not.
I am currently getting a 2 piece made that will allow a decent turn of speed as well as be strong.
Unfortunately weight is a penalty that will have to be suffered, although I'm sure it will be lighter than my own 2 piece shaft, and cost should be reasonable.
Trying to get it made as a simple bolt on fitment, but have to see how it pans out.
If it breaks it breaks, then I'll worry about it, but I think the 450lbft rating is quite conservative.
A lot of the yanks break them as they cant drive sticks lol
No, but they try to flat shift, launch at very sticky tracks with good tyres etc. A little bit of mechanical sypmathy should see the box last pretty well.
Strange thing is, and Ive queried with no answers, that a lot of the uprated builds with the T56 actually mostly refer to shifting mechanism parts, rather than bearings or gears. So why does that suddenly make a 450lbft box, safe for say 650lbft ???
From what I gather weakest links in Monaro drivetrain are the diff axle output stubs, perhaps followed by CV shafts ( excl clutch ) No idea if the HSV follows the same. Although I wouldnt like to be pushing the standard propshaft too hard either with decnet tyres etc.
People do offer 1 piece propshaft solutions ( eg Diff Techniks ), but for any UK car IMO they are totally useless. Shaft length will give a very low critical speed, which may limit cars to around 150/160mph, which is useless.
The yanks may think thats acceptable, I do not.
I am currently getting a 2 piece made that will allow a decent turn of speed as well as be strong.
Unfortunately weight is a penalty that will have to be suffered, although I'm sure it will be lighter than my own 2 piece shaft, and cost should be reasonable.
Trying to get it made as a simple bolt on fitment, but have to see how it pans out.
Isnt the viper t56 rated for 550ftlb+? I read its maninly the bearings that are uprated.
Some reference to the upgraded trans here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-War rated at 600ftlb.
Hmm also the MM6 which I think is the trans in the holdens is only rated at 385ftlb.
Found some more info www.keislerauto.com/gm/transmissions/builder2.asp
"TRG-1433 Basic T56 6-speed (GM - 650HP - REAR) TREMEC T56 6-Speed Overdrive transmission for GM 650HP applications. BRAND NEW custom-built Viper unit, not rebuilt like our competition!"
>> Edited by ringram on Friday 7th April 09:31
Some reference to the upgraded trans here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-War rated at 600ftlb.
Hmm also the MM6 which I think is the trans in the holdens is only rated at 385ftlb.
Found some more info www.keislerauto.com/gm/transmissions/builder2.asp
"TRG-1433 Basic T56 6-speed (GM - 650HP - REAR) TREMEC T56 6-Speed Overdrive transmission for GM 650HP applications. BRAND NEW custom-built Viper unit, not rebuilt like our competition!"
>> Edited by ringram on Friday 7th April 09:31
stevieturbo said:
From what I gather weakest links in Monaro drivetrain are the diff axle output stubs, perhaps followed by CV shafts ( excl clutch ) No idea if the HSV follows the same. Although I wouldnt like to be pushing the standard propshaft too hard either with decnet tyres etc.
It's the other way round, driveshaft, C.V Shafts and then axle stubs... but with that much power it doesn't really matter, they're all going to be fecked!
I am currently having a conversation with someone in Australia involved with HSVs. (Cannot be more specific at the moment ) Advised the T56 rated at 450 to 550 FT LBS not BHP. There are some serious cars there putting 'much higher' power thru these transmissions with no problems after uprating clutches. Advised the Americans break them due to 'lack of mechanical sympathy (LOL!) rather than weaknesses. Advised the first thing that will go, if it does, will be the rubber 'donut' on my propshaft.
Based on this genuine info and my personal experience of putting big power thru mine I am going to continue and see what happens with no real concerns.
) Advised the T56 rated at 450 to 550 FT LBS not BHP. There are some serious cars there putting 'much higher' power thru these transmissions with no problems after uprating clutches. Advised the Americans break them due to 'lack of mechanical sympathy (LOL!) rather than weaknesses. Advised the first thing that will go, if it does, will be the rubber 'donut' on my propshaft. Based on this genuine info and my personal experience of putting big power thru mine I am going to continue and see what happens with no real concerns.
Yep....would agree...the manual T56 gearbox can take a lot of abuse!
As mentioned the tailshaft donuts go on the big horsepower cars. A lot of the very high powered cars swap to the earlier VTII tailshaft as that had less donuts in it!! the VX had more to dampen vibration complaints.
The other item that does break occasionally are the driveshafts especially when using slicks at the drag strip! except my car of course! I have broken a KAAZ and more recently 3.9 diff gears, both on the road.....no idea how I broke either!
However...which would rather break? Gearbox, driveshafts, clutches, tailshafts or donuts? If you beef up everything something is always going to be weaker. Personally, I would rather replace driveshafts as it is possible to do it yourself with axle stands and a jack! Second option would be donuts!
For info the HSV 6.0l LS2 equiped cars supposedly have thicker driveshafts.
Apologies for going off topic.
I think the only extra driveline items the turbo cars are running are maybe clutches and the shifter!
motomk
As mentioned the tailshaft donuts go on the big horsepower cars. A lot of the very high powered cars swap to the earlier VTII tailshaft as that had less donuts in it!! the VX had more to dampen vibration complaints.
The other item that does break occasionally are the driveshafts especially when using slicks at the drag strip! except my car of course! I have broken a KAAZ and more recently 3.9 diff gears, both on the road.....no idea how I broke either!
However...which would rather break? Gearbox, driveshafts, clutches, tailshafts or donuts? If you beef up everything something is always going to be weaker. Personally, I would rather replace driveshafts as it is possible to do it yourself with axle stands and a jack! Second option would be donuts!
For info the HSV 6.0l LS2 equiped cars supposedly have thicker driveshafts.
Apologies for going off topic.
I think the only extra driveline items the turbo cars are running are maybe clutches and the shifter!
motomk
This guy claims on ls1tech.com to build and warranty a t56 trans for 1000bhp www.t56rebuilds.com/subpage2.html
Reference his post here www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4095405&postcount=3
Plus more HD t56's here www.finishlinetrans.com/transmissions/T56Extreme.htm
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 8th April 07:54
Reference his post here www.ls1tech.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4095405&postcount=3
Plus more HD t56's here www.finishlinetrans.com/transmissions/T56Extreme.htm
>> Edited by ringram on Saturday 8th April 07:54
The 8 sec Vipers are using the G-Force internals. They appear to be a semi-helical cut, so would probably make a bit of noise.
Not sure if it also requires an output shaft shange, + obviously a matching slip yoke.
That said, a lot of the builders seem to suggest that gear treatments make a big difference, whether its this "Mikronite" thing, or Cryo treatment.
But as you read on those rebuilds, nearly all the parts I see related to shifting mechanisms.
I dont see uprated shafts, bearings, GEARS etc etc.
Based on that, I cant see them worth buying as I dont see how its going to prevent gear breakage, which would be my concern ( as well as output shaft )
Quoting...
Package #4A: Core Transmission, New 1-2 Slider, New 3-4 Slider, Carbon Fiber Synchros, Billet Keys, Steel 3-4 Fork, Bronze Fork Pads for 1-4 Forks, New Bearing and Labor.....$1900.00 (Lead time is 7 business days)
Package #4B: Core Transmission, New 1-2 Slider, New 3-4 Slider, Carbon Fiber Synchros, 3-4 Billet Keys, 5-6 Billet Keys, New Mikronite Finishing on 1-4 Gear (Mikronite extends the life of the transmission by more than double), Mikronite Finishing on 1-2 Slider and 3-4 Slider, Steel 3-4 Fork, Bronze Fork Pads 1-4 forks, New Bearing and Labor.....$2100.00 (14 day lead time for Mikronite finishing)
Mikronite extends the life of the trans by double ???? Doesnt really mean anything, does it ??
If you had say 2000bhp and could break the trans in 5 secs, does that mean it will magically last 10 secs ?
Its ability to handle torque/hp that I want, to a service life claim.
If that means eventually I have to opt for a G-Force kit, then I will. Although I hope its not for a long time yet.
Not sure if it also requires an output shaft shange, + obviously a matching slip yoke.
That said, a lot of the builders seem to suggest that gear treatments make a big difference, whether its this "Mikronite" thing, or Cryo treatment.
But as you read on those rebuilds, nearly all the parts I see related to shifting mechanisms.
I dont see uprated shafts, bearings, GEARS etc etc.
Based on that, I cant see them worth buying as I dont see how its going to prevent gear breakage, which would be my concern ( as well as output shaft )
Quoting...
Package #4A: Core Transmission, New 1-2 Slider, New 3-4 Slider, Carbon Fiber Synchros, Billet Keys, Steel 3-4 Fork, Bronze Fork Pads for 1-4 Forks, New Bearing and Labor.....$1900.00 (Lead time is 7 business days)
Package #4B: Core Transmission, New 1-2 Slider, New 3-4 Slider, Carbon Fiber Synchros, 3-4 Billet Keys, 5-6 Billet Keys, New Mikronite Finishing on 1-4 Gear (Mikronite extends the life of the transmission by more than double), Mikronite Finishing on 1-2 Slider and 3-4 Slider, Steel 3-4 Fork, Bronze Fork Pads 1-4 forks, New Bearing and Labor.....$2100.00 (14 day lead time for Mikronite finishing)
Mikronite extends the life of the trans by double ???? Doesnt really mean anything, does it ??
If you had say 2000bhp and could break the trans in 5 secs, does that mean it will magically last 10 secs ?
Its ability to handle torque/hp that I want, to a service life claim.
If that means eventually I have to opt for a G-Force kit, then I will. Although I hope its not for a long time yet.
Yes, but it will cost you. The American or kit car specialists should be able to help.
I had all my mods declared on a Camaro with around 420bhp though "Hiway" I think via Equip at Lloyds.
Stock was 275bhp. Didnt cost anything more at the time. They just wanted to know what was in there.
I had all my mods declared on a Camaro with around 420bhp though "Hiway" I think via Equip at Lloyds.
Stock was 275bhp. Didnt cost anything more at the time. They just wanted to know what was in there.
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