V12 vantage vs V12 modified vs V12S vs V12S manual
Discussion
Hi all... Finally a day free to take my vantage for a long overdue drive today and enjoyed every minute of it !! It's been about 6 weeks since I last drove her and god damn it was good.... Non stop... 
So while driving it got me thinking about how my car was when I first bought it, to how it is now with the bamford rose exhaust system and high lift cams.. also I have nitron coil over suspension fitted and I feel together in my opinion it just can't get any better! The overall handling from the suspension upgrade and the bamford rose mods has made the car not only ballistic fast but also perfectly balanced.. So we have the vantage S and now the vantage S manual!.. Well i certainly don't think the £1000s needed to go from the original to the new is worth it.. If your looking at getting into a v12 vantage and making it perfect the best way I feel is the original with bamford rose mods.... With that done you will have what I feel a perfect package and save poss £40-50k!! How do others feel obviously I understand we have standard cars.. Modified ones.. But does yours make you feel content ???
So while driving it got me thinking about how my car was when I first bought it, to how it is now with the bamford rose exhaust system and high lift cams.. also I have nitron coil over suspension fitted and I feel together in my opinion it just can't get any better! The overall handling from the suspension upgrade and the bamford rose mods has made the car not only ballistic fast but also perfectly balanced.. So we have the vantage S and now the vantage S manual!.. Well i certainly don't think the £1000s needed to go from the original to the new is worth it.. If your looking at getting into a v12 vantage and making it perfect the best way I feel is the original with bamford rose mods.... With that done you will have what I feel a perfect package and save poss £40-50k!! How do others feel obviously I understand we have standard cars.. Modified ones.. But does yours make you feel content ??? 
I suppose it depends on how long you want to keep the car. For my part I would worry about the effect on resale from the modifications. I have had the twin-plate clutch upgrade carried out by BR & absolute love the improvements, but would not go any further purely because I would like to upgrade to a V12V/S/SM in a few years time & the £10k spent on further upgrades would definitely not be realised in the value & could indeed damage it. It's clearly personal choice, but I wouldn't buy a super-modified AM.
HBradley said:
I suppose it depends on how long you want to keep the car. For my part I would worry about the effect on resale from the modifications. I have had the twin-plate clutch upgrade carried out by BR & absolute love the improvements, but would not go any further purely because I would like to upgrade to a V12V/S/SM in a few years time & the £10k spent on further upgrades would definitely not be realised in the value & could indeed damage it. It's clearly personal choice, but I wouldn't buy a super-modified AM.
Fear not, you can return the car to complete standard and sell the hardware back to BR, negating some of the loss. I did that with my V8V and Mike gave me a fair price. Food for thought.HBradley said:
I suppose it depends on how long you want to keep the car. For my part I would worry about the effect on resale from the modifications. I have had the twin-plate clutch upgrade carried out by BR & absolute love the improvements, but would not go any further purely because I would like to upgrade to a V12V/S/SM in a few years time & the £10k spent on further upgrades would definitely not be realised in the value & could indeed damage it. It's clearly personal choice, but I wouldn't buy a super-modified AM.
Agree it does depend on how you buy/sell.. If your one for always wanting the next up and coming model then makes no sence investing that sort of money, if you only plan to keep it for a few years. My point was them that already own the first generation v12 vantage and are considering keeping it long term... The modifications make it what I feel is the best it can be.. Long term enjoyment.. Content..with no urge to spend a crazy amount of money for the newer model that I feel would not improve on what I have. I don't understand why people feel modifications should lower sell on value.. Like your clutch, the best modifications only improve the car, you only need to see the Aston exhaust against the bamford rose to realise that!
phil bird said:
HBradley said:
I suppose it depends on how long you want to keep the car. For my part I would worry about the effect on resale from the modifications. I have had the twin-plate clutch upgrade carried out by BR & absolute love the improvements, but would not go any further purely because I would like to upgrade to a V12V/S/SM in a few years time & the £10k spent on further upgrades would definitely not be realised in the value & could indeed damage it. It's clearly personal choice, but I wouldn't buy a super-modified AM.
Agree it does depend on how you buy/sell.. If your one for always wanting the next up and coming model then makes no sence investing that sort of money, if you only plan to keep it for a few years. My point was them that already own the first generation v12 vantage and are considering keeping it long term... The modifications make it what I feel is the best it can be.. Long term enjoyment.. Content..with no urge to spend a crazy amount of money for the newer model that I feel would not improve on what I have. I don't understand why people feel modifications should lower sell on value.. Like your clutch, the best modifications only improve the car, you only need to see the Aston exhaust against the bamford rose to realise that!Might simply be an irrational scepticism of mods & the connotation that those cars have been thrashed & therefore a risky purchase for potential purchasers in the future (particularly for potential owners new to the marque). I know firsthand the superb service & workmanship that comes with upgrades from BR (& no doubt from David Appleby et al). It may also be true that there is a threshold in a car's life where the upgrades may have a beneficial effect on the value, though the market for such may be quite narrow.
As I've said, personally speaking, whilst I love my V8VS (before & after the upgrades), I have a plan to keep upgrading as finances allow. In any event I'll keep supporting the marque for the same reasons I did with my first 4.3 V8V in 2012, because they're beautiful & British! Fades to the strains of Jerusalem
HBradley said:
Phil,
Might simply be an irrational scepticism of mods & the connotation that those cars have been thrashed & therefore a risky purchase for potential purchasers in the future (particularly for potential owners new to the marque). I know firsthand the superb service & workmanship that comes with upgrades from BR (& no doubt from David Appleby et al). It may also be true that there is a threshold in a car's life where the upgrades may have a beneficial effect on the value, though the market for such may be quite narrow.
As I've said, personally speaking, whilst I love my V8VS (before & after the upgrades), I have a plan to keep upgrading as finances allow. In any event I'll keep supporting the marque for the same reasons I did with my first 4.3 V8V in 2012, because they're beautiful & British! Fades to the strains of Jerusalem
And I don't blame you my friend.. Moving up the marque to the larger engine v12 makes sence and I know you will love it! So your next purchase v12 v12s or V12s manual?.. I just feel moving up from the original v12 gives little for the £s, I have driven the S with the paddles and does nothing for me. Might simply be an irrational scepticism of mods & the connotation that those cars have been thrashed & therefore a risky purchase for potential purchasers in the future (particularly for potential owners new to the marque). I know firsthand the superb service & workmanship that comes with upgrades from BR (& no doubt from David Appleby et al). It may also be true that there is a threshold in a car's life where the upgrades may have a beneficial effect on the value, though the market for such may be quite narrow.
As I've said, personally speaking, whilst I love my V8VS (before & after the upgrades), I have a plan to keep upgrading as finances allow. In any event I'll keep supporting the marque for the same reasons I did with my first 4.3 V8V in 2012, because they're beautiful & British! Fades to the strains of Jerusalem
phil bird said:
I have driven the S with the paddles and does nothing for me.
We see this all the time and obviously we are all bias to what we own however the gearbox in the V12S is actually truly sensational. Ive had faster twin clutch gearboxes but they are soulless. (991 GT3, 997 Turbo, Cali)
I change my cars every 12 months but have just hit the 12 month point with the V12S and I am not even close to a change. Every single journey is wonderful and a lot of it is the superb gearbox experience so whenever I read the criticism from either a journo or following a test drive I just don't get it.
I can only assume that it takes a while to get to grips with it but once you have it is a real positive for the car not a negative.
Yes, it is the worst AUTO gearbox in the world, I have to admit that, but it is constantly being compared to a manual gearbox that doesn't have a D button or the paddle shift of a twin clutch so the fair comparison is only when using the paddles and while in sport mode.
Over the years the vast majority of my cars have been manual and I do enjoy a great manual experience however would I swap my V12S paddles for a V12S manual? No thank you.
Edited by Flugplatz on Thursday 10th November 13:38
Flugplatz said:
We see this all the time and obviously we are all bias to what we own however the gearbox in the V12S is actually truly sensational.
Ive had faster twin clutch gearboxes but they are soulless. (991 GT3, 997 Turbo, Cali)
I change my cars every 12 months but have just hit the 12 month point with the V12S and I am not even close to a change. Every single journey is wonderful and a lot of it is the superb gearbox experience so whenever I read the criticism from either a journo or following a test drive I just don't get it.
I can only assume that it takes a while to get to grips with it but once you have it is a real positive for the car not a negative.
Yes, it is the worst AUTO gearbox in the world, I have to admit that, but it is constantly being compared to a manual gearbox that doesn't have a D button or the paddle shift of a twin clutch so the fair comparison is only when using the paddles and while in sport mode.
Over the years the vast majority of my cars have been manual and I do enjoy a great manual experience however would I swap my V12S paddles for a V12S manual? No thank you.
Please don't think I am slating the V12s far from it!.. Great car it's just the paddle shift is not for me Ive had faster twin clutch gearboxes but they are soulless. (991 GT3, 997 Turbo, Cali)
I change my cars every 12 months but have just hit the 12 month point with the V12S and I am not even close to a change. Every single journey is wonderful and a lot of it is the superb gearbox experience so whenever I read the criticism from either a journo or following a test drive I just don't get it.
I can only assume that it takes a while to get to grips with it but once you have it is a real positive for the car not a negative.
Yes, it is the worst AUTO gearbox in the world, I have to admit that, but it is constantly being compared to a manual gearbox that doesn't have a D button or the paddle shift of a twin clutch so the fair comparison is only when using the paddles and while in sport mode.
Over the years the vast majority of my cars have been manual and I do enjoy a great manual experience however would I swap my V12S paddles for a V12S manual? No thank you.
Edited by Flugplatz on Thursday 10th November 13:38
Flugplatz said:
We see this all the time and obviously we are all bias to what we own however the gearbox in the V12S is actually truly sensational.
Ive had faster twin clutch gearboxes but they are soulless. (991 GT3, 997 Turbo, Cali)
I change my cars every 12 months but have just hit the 12 month point with the V12S and I am not even close to a change. Every single journey is wonderful and a lot of it is the superb gearbox experience so whenever I read the criticism from either a journo or following a test drive I just don't get it.
I can only assume that it takes a while to get to grips with it but once you have it is a real positive for the car not a negative.
Yes, it is the worst AUTO gearbox in the world, I have to admit that, but it is constantly being compared to a manual gearbox that doesn't have a D button or the paddle shift of a twin clutch so the fair comparison is only when using the paddles and while in sport mode.
Over the years the vast majority of my cars have been manual and I do enjoy a great manual experience however would I swap my V12S paddles for a V12S manual? No thank you.
I feel exactly the same, once used to it you can do perfect shifts. Neither would I change mine for a V12 S manual, I'm perfectly happy with what I have.Ive had faster twin clutch gearboxes but they are soulless. (991 GT3, 997 Turbo, Cali)
I change my cars every 12 months but have just hit the 12 month point with the V12S and I am not even close to a change. Every single journey is wonderful and a lot of it is the superb gearbox experience so whenever I read the criticism from either a journo or following a test drive I just don't get it.
I can only assume that it takes a while to get to grips with it but once you have it is a real positive for the car not a negative.
Yes, it is the worst AUTO gearbox in the world, I have to admit that, but it is constantly being compared to a manual gearbox that doesn't have a D button or the paddle shift of a twin clutch so the fair comparison is only when using the paddles and while in sport mode.
Over the years the vast majority of my cars have been manual and I do enjoy a great manual experience however would I swap my V12S paddles for a V12S manual? No thank you.
Edited by Flugplatz on Thursday 10th November 13:38
Well SportshiftIII is clearly not for you and I can understand that but it is definitely not crap. I wouldn't drive it if it were crap, neither would Flugplatz, neither would Ian who owns both manual V12VR and SportshiftIII V12VSR, he likes them both, would he keep both cars if the gearbox were crap? And many other owners who like Sportshift.
It is ridiculous to make such a statement just because you don't like it!
It is ridiculous to make such a statement just because you don't like it!
There''s no way in the world I'd swap my SSIII V12VS for the latest seven speed manual. I think I'd rather have the old six speed box if I wanted a traditional manual. SS III suits the car perfectly.
I get my manual thrills from a 2007 RS4, which incidentally has a better gear box than any manual Aston I've ever driven. But that's another story.
I get my manual thrills from a 2007 RS4, which incidentally has a better gear box than any manual Aston I've ever driven. But that's another story.
Ok, I might have been a bit over the top.
However, my feeling is that the purpose of a paddle is to make changes faster or run well as an automatic. If rivals (as exotic as a Golf diesel!!) can produce a gearbox that does that better than an Aston, then Aston should be ashamed of itself.
That's my point . Don't introduce something that is so out of date and slow that it compares with cars of 20 years ago. Just keep it manual until you can get it right.
No-one in their right mind would change a current Ferrari twin clutch for one of their archaic F1 transmissions. Technology has moved on. Yet AM have the nerve to sell it as quality engineering!
However, my feeling is that the purpose of a paddle is to make changes faster or run well as an automatic. If rivals (as exotic as a Golf diesel!!) can produce a gearbox that does that better than an Aston, then Aston should be ashamed of itself.
That's my point . Don't introduce something that is so out of date and slow that it compares with cars of 20 years ago. Just keep it manual until you can get it right.
No-one in their right mind would change a current Ferrari twin clutch for one of their archaic F1 transmissions. Technology has moved on. Yet AM have the nerve to sell it as quality engineering!
Ex Boy Racer said:
Ok, I might have been a bit over the top.
However, my feeling is that the purpose of a paddle is to make changes faster or run well as an automatic. If rivals (as exotic as a Golf diesel!!) can produce a gearbox that does that better than an Aston, then Aston should be ashamed of itself.
That's my point . Don't introduce something that is so out of date and slow that it compares with cars of 20 years ago. Just keep it manual until you can get it right.
No-one in their right mind would change a current Ferrari twin clutch for one of their archaic F1 transmissions. Technology has moved on. Yet AM have the nerve to sell it as quality engineering!
Well put ^^However, my feeling is that the purpose of a paddle is to make changes faster or run well as an automatic. If rivals (as exotic as a Golf diesel!!) can produce a gearbox that does that better than an Aston, then Aston should be ashamed of itself.
That's my point . Don't introduce something that is so out of date and slow that it compares with cars of 20 years ago. Just keep it manual until you can get it right.
No-one in their right mind would change a current Ferrari twin clutch for one of their archaic F1 transmissions. Technology has moved on. Yet AM have the nerve to sell it as quality engineering!
V12VS is about the best an ASM can ever become, this is because it has evolved to Bosch engine controller, faster CanBus comms, better algorithms within the TCU and a twinplate clutch, whereas V8 4.3L was antiquated Ford engine controller, slow antiquated CanBus, antiquated TCU and a soon to be BBQ'd singleplate clutch. The middle ground between 4.3L and V12VS was Vantage S, which compared original 4.3L, because better clutch software control and aided by Hill Hold drives ok and leaves only the single plate clutch as the weak point letting driveability on that model down, the good news is that it is not beyond the wit of man to make better / close to V12VS level of acceptance, all the old spec cars.
I don't think an ASM will feature as tech on any clean sheet car in the future and its existence today is legacy of a decision taken over 10 years ago to implement it - it was either ASM with all its flaws or nothing else and sell only a manual, because they didn't have the development dosh to implement anything else. Evolving the legacy into the best it can be, V12VS, can only be considered an engineering / product success given what they had to work with originally. Using an analogy, they have turned a '90's brick mobile phone into a smartphone, but without the brick, no smartphone would exist, which being true, justifies somewhat the original release of ASM at 'brick phone' capability.
But on the other hand... as to if the go button should ever have been pressed on the original offering at 4.3L and the comment of self respect / shame, because yeah, it was a brick whilst the competition was embarking on Smartphones, well, you are talking about the same man who pressed the go button on Cygnet! Beyond sinking millions into that disaster and peeing money up the wall on pointless racing... the list goes on... those savings within that era, say about 50 odd million quid, could have got Aston a contemporary gearbox. This is Astons problem time and time over, they are not focussed on getting core products right and DBX will be the next distraction, yes, they say the sales volumes will be the saviour but Rapide was supposed to eat into the 60% share Porsche had on the 4 door sports car market, despite being a cracking car the best Rapide achieved was about 6% of the 4 door sports car market.
I fear DBX will be Palmers Cygnet and will cause diversion of development funds away from what the focus should be - Vantage replacement, causing that car to not have the best of everything spec.
And on the subject of nerve, yes indeed, a one-77 has nowhere close as good / evolved ASM as V12VS - isn't that just plain wrong for the integrity of that car?!
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