Fraudulent bankers draft
Discussion
ccfj1 said:
hi red head,
Sorry to hear it, £25k is a lot of money to lose…I had a couple of these, told them both to bugger off, I only take cash (it’s a risk I know, but it feels better with the readies in the hand).
When I sold mine I asked my building society about BS Cheque/bankers drafts, and was told, unless you can prove that the BS or bank actually provided the Cheque/draft its your loss should it go wrong, basically the onus is on you to wait (up to six months) for clearance (I know this is unworkable for the customer, but covers the back against loss).
The bank/BS are not interested in you the customer, they are only interested in protecting the bank.
Best way I was told is cash or direct bank transfer (or similar) ONLY letting the car go the next day (after the transfer) so it can not be reversed.
Getting back to Tom3’s near miss, since the perp/scum phoned him from a land line could the police get the phone company to release the land line numbers (for the correct time) and follow them up, (on going fraud etc...) same guy etc…
I know he could have phoned from a phone box/train station etc but it's a start. I have unreleased caller reject on my phone, if they don’t release their number, my phone don’t ring (the phone is for my convenience not the callers), that way I always have a number to phone back.
John
Sorry to hear it, £25k is a lot of money to lose…I had a couple of these, told them both to bugger off, I only take cash (it’s a risk I know, but it feels better with the readies in the hand).
When I sold mine I asked my building society about BS Cheque/bankers drafts, and was told, unless you can prove that the BS or bank actually provided the Cheque/draft its your loss should it go wrong, basically the onus is on you to wait (up to six months) for clearance (I know this is unworkable for the customer, but covers the back against loss).
The bank/BS are not interested in you the customer, they are only interested in protecting the bank.
Best way I was told is cash or direct bank transfer (or similar) ONLY letting the car go the next day (after the transfer) so it can not be reversed.
Getting back to Tom3’s near miss, since the perp/scum phoned him from a land line could the police get the phone company to release the land line numbers (for the correct time) and follow them up, (on going fraud etc...) same guy etc…
I know he could have phoned from a phone box/train station etc but it's a start. I have unreleased caller reject on my phone, if they don’t release their number, my phone don’t ring (the phone is for my convenience not the callers), that way I always have a number to phone back.
John
I think the bank have to tell you this though if you go into a branch and ask them to confirm a draft they have to explain all that to you, if they just looked at it and said yeah thats fine mate, you have grounds to challange on the basis that you released goods on the basis they confimed the draft as genuine
Just to clarify, the bankers draft would be genuine, its where the funds were obtained from that is the problem. These scamsters get the bank details from clients that usually live outside the UK, ex-pats for example. Once they have the details, they telephone the bank pretending to be the account holder and arrange for the draft to be collected at a bank where they are aware the id is easy to beat. They collect the draft, pay you and then sit tight. Sometimes the real owner of the account doesn't check his account for months, other times, due to the size of the withdrawal the owner is contacted by the bank to verfiry the dispatch of the draft. If they live outside the UK this is sometimes very difficult and it can be months before the draft is declared fraudulant. In this case it came to light very quickly, the bank did the right thing, but is inbetween two stools, they had to protect their original customer from fraud. Unknowingly, you became part of the fraud. In the eyes of the law, you are just as guilty as you helped your buyer with the fraud. I know this doesn't help matters, but I hope it clears up some myths regarding banks. Effectively the car has been stolen, but the insurance company will not pay up because you handed over the keys, thereby giving away the vehicle - legally no intent at this point to steal. Your only recourse is through the police, but as you are aware, they have no chance of catching these people. Its a tremondous abount of money to loose and my condolences go with you. However, I'd have a go at what was suggested in an earlier posting and readvertise another one, in thehope of catching the B********rds. Take along 5 or 6 strong mates and get the money another way.
Paul
Paul
paulsmusic2000 said:
Just to clarify, the bankers draft would be genuine, its where the funds were obtained from that is the problem. These scamsters get the bank details from clients that usually live outside the UK, ex-pats for example. Once they have the details, they telephone the bank pretending to be the account holder and arrange for the draft to be collected at a bank where they are aware the id is easy to beat. They collect the draft, pay you and then sit tight. Sometimes the real owner of the account doesn't check his account for months, other times, due to the size of the withdrawal the owner is contacted by the bank to verfiry the dispatch of the draft. If they live outside the UK this is sometimes very difficult and it can be months before the draft is declared fraudulant. In this case it came to light very quickly, the bank did the right thing, but is inbetween two stools, they had to protect their original customer from fraud. Unknowingly, you became part of the fraud. In the eyes of the law, you are just as guilty as you helped your buyer with the fraud. I know this doesn't help matters, but I hope it clears up some myths regarding banks. Effectively the car has been stolen, but the insurance company will not pay up because you handed over the keys, thereby giving away the vehicle - legally no intent at this point to steal. Your only recourse is through the police, but as you are aware, they have no chance of catching these people. Its a tremondous abount of money to loose and my condolences go with you. However, I'd have a go at what was suggested in an earlier posting and readvertise another one, in thehope of catching the B********rds. Take along 5 or 6 strong mates and get the money another way.
Paul
Paul
Sorry, this is not correct.
If a bank issues a draft and the means of payment were dubious that is the bank's issue. If what you say is true no-one can accept a draft in payment without risk. If the draft was issued corectly by the bank it has made a promise to pay. Refer to the Bills of Exchange Act 1882 - a draft is a BoE and the definition of a BoE starts with "An unconditional order..............". If the bank could weedle out by saying that the means of payment was fraudulent this would be a condition and therefore would not be a draft.
Banks can refuse to pay if it is a genuine draft that has been completed and signed by an unathorised person (i.e. a thief) or if the purported draft is counterfeit (i.e. not a bank draft).
Additionally, if a bank issued drafts without identifying the customer it would be in breach of Anti-money laundering rules.
Lastly, it is just wrong to suggest that someone can comit a fraud on you and you become guilty of the same crime. If so and you receive a counterfeit £10 note are you guilty of counterfeiting?
You are going to have to get devious to catch devious. The police probably don't think of the car of stolen so you may need to change the story to suit - Make sure they will pull it if they see it. More useful though....... Advertise FOC in loot London an M3 - do not put a price in , just put the details in, they will find it after a couple of weeks then set them up again. Order a log book for the car quick if you still can and get a key made up. Take the chassis number and submitt it to BMW so next time something goes wrong with it and parts are ordered someone clocks it.
Get BMW or Police or Dealer with an HPI account to put the car on "ALERT" status so if someone trys to trade it in you are called straight away.
I am afraid no one is going to help , not the banks and not the police , they are all useless in cases like this all busy saying sorry and tring to get out the door by 5pm. I know I have been there in slightly different circumstances. You are going to have to solve this yourself.
Good luck, I do feel for your situation.
Get BMW or Police or Dealer with an HPI account to put the car on "ALERT" status so if someone trys to trade it in you are called straight away.
I am afraid no one is going to help , not the banks and not the police , they are all useless in cases like this all busy saying sorry and tring to get out the door by 5pm. I know I have been there in slightly different circumstances. You are going to have to solve this yourself.
Good luck, I do feel for your situation.
forgive me if this has been said already but i have not read the whole thread.
i have worked in banking for 7 years I would NOT accepta draft because a bankers draft only represents the fact that a customer has paid cleared funds from their account into the banks 'draft' account this is meant to gurantee that the funds will be paid. HOWEVER it is still possible for a the customer to stop the draft and have their funds re credited to to their account (minus the fee)if they so wish.
the obvious result.... a rubbery cheque for the payee.
the drafts printed by a computer are the ones most commonly forged.
the best way to accept payment is by CHAPS then to invite the buyer to come and collect the car early evening and check your balance after 7pm with your bank if cleared funds are there give them the keys.
i have worked in banking for 7 years I would NOT accepta draft because a bankers draft only represents the fact that a customer has paid cleared funds from their account into the banks 'draft' account this is meant to gurantee that the funds will be paid. HOWEVER it is still possible for a the customer to stop the draft and have their funds re credited to to their account (minus the fee)if they so wish.
the obvious result.... a rubbery cheque for the payee.
the drafts printed by a computer are the ones most commonly forged.
the best way to accept payment is by CHAPS then to invite the buyer to come and collect the car early evening and check your balance after 7pm with your bank if cleared funds are there give them the keys.
Then you ask for them to send the money back pronto.
Assuming you're not buying a car from a layby, you can sue them for it back if they play up so you're in a better position than with a buyer who comes to you.
Same bank transfers are best, my buyer was with Smile, so when he came round he rang his bank and transferred to money to my Smile account. I logged on and checked it out (it was evening so no reversals) and he drove off.
That turned out perfectly.
Assuming you're not buying a car from a layby, you can sue them for it back if they play up so you're in a better position than with a buyer who comes to you.
Same bank transfers are best, my buyer was with Smile, so when he came round he rang his bank and transferred to money to my Smile account. I logged on and checked it out (it was evening so no reversals) and he drove off.
That turned out perfectly.
Firstly sorry to hear of this and hope it works out for you.
Secondly I ended up on the wrong end of a scam a decade or so again - long story and I actually got my money back but 10 - 30 individuals were diddled out of the full value of their vehicles. Made the Daily Mirror and was specifically targeted at commission sales of TVR's but as I say long story.
My experience did show me that neither the police or the insurers can be trusted.
One query I have - if the draft cleared in your account for a period what would have happened had you withdrawn the funds in cash, as opposed to writing a cheque elsewhere which would have subsequently been reversed ?
What would happen if you did write a cheque and that cleared in someone else's account and then they withdrew cash etc etc ? Could you have a chain of 1000 people with reversed draft's or cheque's ?
If you had paid a finance company with a cheque from the funds would the finance company now be out of pocket or would they still hold title on the vehicle and what would that be worth anyway if it was in Slogaria ?
For a bank to show the funds as "cleared and available" then surely to reverse this is an admittance of culpability ?
Secondly I ended up on the wrong end of a scam a decade or so again - long story and I actually got my money back but 10 - 30 individuals were diddled out of the full value of their vehicles. Made the Daily Mirror and was specifically targeted at commission sales of TVR's but as I say long story.
My experience did show me that neither the police or the insurers can be trusted.
One query I have - if the draft cleared in your account for a period what would have happened had you withdrawn the funds in cash, as opposed to writing a cheque elsewhere which would have subsequently been reversed ?
What would happen if you did write a cheque and that cleared in someone else's account and then they withdrew cash etc etc ? Could you have a chain of 1000 people with reversed draft's or cheque's ?
If you had paid a finance company with a cheque from the funds would the finance company now be out of pocket or would they still hold title on the vehicle and what would that be worth anyway if it was in Slogaria ?
For a bank to show the funds as "cleared and available" then surely to reverse this is an admittance of culpability ?
Hi
We were told that a bankers draft was only another form of cheque, and that it was only issued when there was enough cleared funds, however it could be easily cancelled. Not sure of the legal stance on this, however I would suggest that if there arre several people who have suffered the same fate, then band together and get consumer programmes invloved, go to the papers, make as much noise as possible.
It galls me to think that we all work hard for the cars we have, and some scum can come along and for the price of a few phone calls and travel money can come and take it away from us.
The police have no interest at all, the insurance companies are covering themselves, to the point that if you ring for a quote they state that if you leave the keys in your car or give your keys to another person then your insurance is void.
As to setting up a sting type operation, make sure you have it on cctv, then post it on every forum.
Hope things turn out for everyone.
We were told that a bankers draft was only another form of cheque, and that it was only issued when there was enough cleared funds, however it could be easily cancelled. Not sure of the legal stance on this, however I would suggest that if there arre several people who have suffered the same fate, then band together and get consumer programmes invloved, go to the papers, make as much noise as possible.
It galls me to think that we all work hard for the cars we have, and some scum can come along and for the price of a few phone calls and travel money can come and take it away from us.
The police have no interest at all, the insurance companies are covering themselves, to the point that if you ring for a quote they state that if you leave the keys in your car or give your keys to another person then your insurance is void.
As to setting up a sting type operation, make sure you have it on cctv, then post it on every forum.
Hope things turn out for everyone.
I cant believe this thread has come back up. I have the deepest sympathy here. I myself received many scam emails when i advertised my M3 but I saw through them(lucky me aye). I sold privately and insisted on a friend coming with me and said buyer to my local Natwest and watching him make a transfer-he too banked with Natwest. A CHAPS payment is just as good. I wouldnt accept cheques, cash, gold-nothing else.
As I said, I feel for this guy but I hasten to add, if I recall he claims to have taken the cheque into a bank branch and had it cleared, on camera and verbally signed off only to find it a bud-I simply dont believe that because common law is clear-reliance on the bank whether right/wrong. He then claimed the bank didnt even want to discuss the matter. That sound plausable....maybe this thread is a troll?
There was another fraud reported on these pages a few months ago where a guy turned up after dark and pissing down with rain to test drive an RS4 Audi. He turned up in a taxi!!! The guy ended up driving off in the car when they swapped sides for a test drive.
Come on fellas, if ur that fn stupid!!!!
u can all flame me now for being an insensitive a55hole. I like to believe that most people who have half a brain not to mention a 30-100k car didnt come down in the last shower.
As I said, I feel for this guy but I hasten to add, if I recall he claims to have taken the cheque into a bank branch and had it cleared, on camera and verbally signed off only to find it a bud-I simply dont believe that because common law is clear-reliance on the bank whether right/wrong. He then claimed the bank didnt even want to discuss the matter. That sound plausable....maybe this thread is a troll?
There was another fraud reported on these pages a few months ago where a guy turned up after dark and pissing down with rain to test drive an RS4 Audi. He turned up in a taxi!!! The guy ended up driving off in the car when they swapped sides for a test drive.
Come on fellas, if ur that fn stupid!!!!
u can all flame me now for being an insensitive a55hole. I like to believe that most people who have half a brain not to mention a 30-100k car didnt come down in the last shower.
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