Discussion
So this may be a time when I can make a fundamental gripe I have with Ferrari and maybe some of you can clear it up or agree.
Many people have been comparing the M5-6 to the 612 Scag (Evo) and it seems to me the BMW's as well as Porkers really illustrate that Ferrari no longer sells higher performance cars merely a higher environment particularly when you consider the money.
Before we get to the F430 how would a 360 modena stack up among a 997 (or other Porsches cheaper than the Fezza), M6, and CSL on a purely performance criteria?
The F430 finally has some grunt so it is a new page. I don't mean to hijack the thread into Ferrari world but as has been said the M's are good cars.
Many people have been comparing the M5-6 to the 612 Scag (Evo) and it seems to me the BMW's as well as Porkers really illustrate that Ferrari no longer sells higher performance cars merely a higher environment particularly when you consider the money.
Before we get to the F430 how would a 360 modena stack up among a 997 (or other Porsches cheaper than the Fezza), M6, and CSL on a purely performance criteria?
The F430 finally has some grunt so it is a new page. I don't mean to hijack the thread into Ferrari world but as has been said the M's are good cars.
pib said:
So this may be a time when I can make a fundamental gripe I have with Ferrari and maybe some of you can clear it up or agree.
Many people have been comparing the M5-6 to the 612 Scag (Evo) and it seems to me the BMW's as well as Porkers really illustrate that Ferrari no longer sells higher performance cars merely a higher environment particularly when you consider the money.
Before we get to the F430 how would a 360 modena stack up among a 997 (or other Porsches cheaper than the Fezza), M6, and CSL on a purely performance criteria?
The F430 finally has some grunt so it is a new page. I don't mean to hijack the thread into Ferrari world but as has been said the M's are good cars.
I am 100% with you here. I also believe Ferrari differentiate themselves by branding and ambience. The environment is more special and the aura is, well, Ferrari if one can use the word as an adjective.
But as for pure performance, as measured by on-track behaviour and lap times, it's a no-brainer for me: Porsche do it better (awaits flaming), as do other track-oriented manufacturers.
In fact, although I am yet to drive the new M5, I am going to stick my neck out and say (based on what I have read) it is probably the best car in the world. Massive straight line acceleration, unimpeachable balance and feel, ultra high tech engineering, lap times comparable with the world's fastest cars, and all this with space for 5 and their luggage. My only gripe is with the interior - I felt it was a bit tacky compared with the E39. My wife has a 540i which seems a step up in terms of fit and finish. Oh well, you can't have it all...
604 said:
So.....just for arguments sake....is the question now whether a 997 can stay with an M5 on a "sporting " road,rather than the other way round ?
In last months Top Gear it said the M6 (which should be on parr if not better than the M5 performance wise) would "be creamed by a 997 if (the 997) was in the right hannds"
The M6 appearently gets around the ring in less than 8 minutes which is faster than plain vanilla 911. Dunno about a 911 S though.
Just to answer a question earlier on, the car I wished I'd been driving would have been exactly the same with a clutch pedal and a gearbox. That one major alteration would have removed half the options and produced a car you could instantly bond with.
Touching on one other point, I have to say I think the M5 vs 911 argument is a bit of a duff one. They're different cars and if you're really into seat of the pants driving then it has to be the 911, or possibly the M6 with the manual box.
That said, if you'd just bought a DB9 or a big Ferrari then caught a lift in a mate's M5, you'd be right royally gutted. This car has the measure of both of them, but I think pitching it into battle with a 911 is a bit harsh as it's far more flexible and stately in the real world.
Just my two cents and all!
Cheers
Touching on one other point, I have to say I think the M5 vs 911 argument is a bit of a duff one. They're different cars and if you're really into seat of the pants driving then it has to be the 911, or possibly the M6 with the manual box.
That said, if you'd just bought a DB9 or a big Ferrari then caught a lift in a mate's M5, you'd be right royally gutted. This car has the measure of both of them, but I think pitching it into battle with a 911 is a bit harsh as it's far more flexible and stately in the real world.
Just my two cents and all!
Cheers
lap_time said:No, just program the M button with your preferred settings and that is the only button you need.
Have to agree,thats why I stipulated "sporting " road ,not track....if you want to get into track arguments,an Atom would demolish a 997,but it hardly makes it a better car !!
either way, the M5 owner would still be fumbling with the buttons...
lap_time said:
Have to agree,thats why I stipulated "sporting " road ,not track....if you want to get into track arguments,an Atom would demolish a 997,but it hardly makes it a better car !!
either way, the M5 owner would still be fumbling with the buttons...
All you have to do is press one button "M", no fumbling required...
all the best
adam
Just about every one has missed the point. Yes compare the M5 to a Porsche, but please a DB9?! You can't drive these cars to their limit so you might as well go for the one that looks incredible. The M5 is a paragon of Kraut mediocrity, a super fast one, I grant you but a DB9 is sheer beauty and class. Those that can afford it will always go for the premier marques and leave the rest of the world squabbling. If you really want to beat a DB9 and save a fortune on the M5 then why not by an EVO VII, it also looks nothing but you will save £70K instead of just saving £20K against the DB9. I must also say that the Scag is ugly an dFerrari have got it wrong on that one. So it loses all over the place
lhf said:
Those that can afford it will always go for the premier marques and leave the rest of the world squabbling.
Hmmmmmmmm I think you maybe a little confused as to which are the Premier Marques:-
Ferrari aka Fiat
Maserati aka Fiat oooops nope Alfa Romeo
Aston Martin aka Ford
Bentley aka VW
Lamborghini aka VW
whereas:-
BMW aka BMW
Porsche aka Porsche
and we know who makes the best car in the world don't we:-
Rolls Royce aka BMW!!!
lhf said:
Those that can afford it will always go for the premier marques and leave the rest of the world squabbling.
Yes, but why will they choose to buy a so called 'premium marques'? Is it because they're the better car or just that they're out of reach to more ordinary people? The reason why this whole debate has arisen is the growing realisation that some of the supercars (F430) may not offer enough of a benefit over a more practical but equally fast alternative (M5). There will always be those who buy cars as jewellery, but this is PISTONHEADS for goodness sake! we're meant to rise above all that.
From a personal standpoint I can afford many of the iconic cars often referred to, but I still prefer to buy several less expensive cars that are fast, fun and much more usable.
I think it's very strange to judge a car on just the performance . . . M5 vs Porker: come on!
This M5 sets a standard in people's transportation I would say. IMO it's not the headturner the DB9 / 612 are . . . but hey, you'll be noticed . . . For me a Touring version would be the ideal family car
At the Ring
It's a nice concept
>> Edited by dinkel on Friday 15th July 07:53
This M5 sets a standard in people's transportation I would say. IMO it's not the headturner the DB9 / 612 are . . . but hey, you'll be noticed . . . For me a Touring version would be the ideal family car
At the Ring
It's a nice concept
>> Edited by dinkel on Friday 15th July 07:53
RR-Eng said:
604 said:
huge said:
So.....just for arguments sake....is the question now whether a 997 can stay with an M5 on a "sporting " road,rather than the other way round ?
In last months Top Gear it said the M6 (which should be on parr if not better than the M5 performance wise) would "be creamed by a 997 if (the 997) was in the right hannds"
The M6 appearently gets around the ring in less than 8 minutes which is faster than plain vanilla 911. Dunno about a 911 S though.
carrera S is 7.59. So there you go.
>> Edited by lap_time on Sunday 17th July 08:06
Oh come on, I agree that the DB9 is in a different looks league, but mediocre is not a word that can be applied to the M5. You are straying close to bruciebabe territory there!
My answer to this is:
Where are you going to drive cars like M5? So what is the point of the M5 if it is boring to look at? It is meaningless, a middle management dream car. The DB9 has the performance (so what if it's a car length behind the M5 in a race), but more to the point exudes style and prestige and makes the driver feel really special. If you want pure thrill why not get a second hand Evo VII. With all the traffic and speed restrictions performance and handling is almost pointless, so the M5 loses big time against a DB9 or even Ferrari or Porsche.
My answer to this is:
Where are you going to drive cars like M5? So what is the point of the M5 if it is boring to look at? It is meaningless, a middle management dream car. The DB9 has the performance (so what if it's a car length behind the M5 in a race), but more to the point exudes style and prestige and makes the driver feel really special. If you want pure thrill why not get a second hand Evo VII. With all the traffic and speed restrictions performance and handling is almost pointless, so the M5 loses big time against a DB9 or even Ferrari or Porsche.
From a personal standpoint I can afford many of the iconic cars often referred to, but I still prefer to buy several less expensive cars that are fast, fun and much more usable.[/quote]
Understood, but I drive a Vanquish and I have experienced several of the cars you have, great cars superbly practical (congrats on your achievement my friend), but they are lifeless compared to the Vanq, which has sheer beauty and soul. Oh and the factory tour is mystical, not a robot to be seen, and you are treated like a gentleman. Yes I know for this money you should be but can an AMG driver say the same thing? Doubtful.
Gassing Station | BMW General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff