Fraudulent bankers draft
Discussion
arcbeer said:
Sorry to hear this. Is it worth contacting one of the consumer investigators in the Money section of the Saturday Telegraph or The Sunday Times? They quite often seem to get good results after a "quiet word".
Hey, that's a good idea.
Now remember, some years back, my uncle contacting Honest John of the Saturday Telegragh when my cousin had a prob with her car purchase.
They got a good result.
Hi Guys
This is my first post and I'm sorry to say that it's not a very happy tale I have to tell you.
A little over a week ago a foreign guy called me in reponse to an ad I had placed in AutoTrader for my 2003 530d (E60). We had a number of phone calls, always from the same mobile number, where he asking about spec, condition (he got me to email more photos of the interior) and we negotiated a price of £23,500. In other words, he acted like a normal buyer. At the end of this process, I arranged to meet him the evening that England played Sweden (the 20th) and he came up on the train to Chippenham (I live nearby) from London. I met him at the station and let him drive the car a bit, then we went to my house. En route, I learned that his name is "Kristen Makinen" from Denmark.
Once home, he produced a Danish photo driving licence showing the address "20 Trader Road, London E6 6FR" and an RBS banker's draft for £23,500. To be honest (and I continually beat myself up over this) I was concerned about letting the car go but I had sold cars before taking banker's drafts with no problem. So why would this be any different? The guy was very cute. He said "You're the buyer, you tell me if you would like me to come back to collect once the draft has cleared". This is the worst bit for me - it would have been so easy to say OK but I suppose it was more evidence that he was genuine. Since he had come up on the train, I thought it would be churlish to make him take two additional trips.
I banked the draft the following day at NatWest (a week ago) and, of course, yesterday the bank told me that the draft was counterfeit. yesterday lunchtime I reported the car stolen to Wiltshire police but they have been too busy to come and see me so I still don't have a crime report number. Furthermore, I know that CCTV footage of this guy is likely to exist at Chippenham station (I met with the station manager yesterday) but if the police don't get it soon it will be overwritten.
I have also reported it stolen to the insurance company (First Alternative) and am waiting to hear back. But both their policy, and the policy document of the gap insurance that I took out, specifically exclude theft by deception.
The net of all this is that I am looking at a total loss of £23,500. Who the hell can afford to lose this kind of money? Certainly not me.
For God's sake, if you are reading this and are in the process of selling your car, please learn from my misfortune. Based on the previous posts on this thread, I think I was rolled over by the same gang, using the same source of counterfeit RBS drafts.
If anyone out there has any advice about either: (a) how I should manage the relationship with my insurers to get a different outcome; and/or (b) how to motivate the police to recover the vehicle, please post a reply. I would be hugely grateful for any advice at this time.
Thanks
Nick
This is my first post and I'm sorry to say that it's not a very happy tale I have to tell you.
A little over a week ago a foreign guy called me in reponse to an ad I had placed in AutoTrader for my 2003 530d (E60). We had a number of phone calls, always from the same mobile number, where he asking about spec, condition (he got me to email more photos of the interior) and we negotiated a price of £23,500. In other words, he acted like a normal buyer. At the end of this process, I arranged to meet him the evening that England played Sweden (the 20th) and he came up on the train to Chippenham (I live nearby) from London. I met him at the station and let him drive the car a bit, then we went to my house. En route, I learned that his name is "Kristen Makinen" from Denmark.
Once home, he produced a Danish photo driving licence showing the address "20 Trader Road, London E6 6FR" and an RBS banker's draft for £23,500. To be honest (and I continually beat myself up over this) I was concerned about letting the car go but I had sold cars before taking banker's drafts with no problem. So why would this be any different? The guy was very cute. He said "You're the buyer, you tell me if you would like me to come back to collect once the draft has cleared". This is the worst bit for me - it would have been so easy to say OK but I suppose it was more evidence that he was genuine. Since he had come up on the train, I thought it would be churlish to make him take two additional trips.
I banked the draft the following day at NatWest (a week ago) and, of course, yesterday the bank told me that the draft was counterfeit. yesterday lunchtime I reported the car stolen to Wiltshire police but they have been too busy to come and see me so I still don't have a crime report number. Furthermore, I know that CCTV footage of this guy is likely to exist at Chippenham station (I met with the station manager yesterday) but if the police don't get it soon it will be overwritten.
I have also reported it stolen to the insurance company (First Alternative) and am waiting to hear back. But both their policy, and the policy document of the gap insurance that I took out, specifically exclude theft by deception.
The net of all this is that I am looking at a total loss of £23,500. Who the hell can afford to lose this kind of money? Certainly not me.
For God's sake, if you are reading this and are in the process of selling your car, please learn from my misfortune. Based on the previous posts on this thread, I think I was rolled over by the same gang, using the same source of counterfeit RBS drafts.
If anyone out there has any advice about either: (a) how I should manage the relationship with my insurers to get a different outcome; and/or (b) how to motivate the police to recover the vehicle, please post a reply. I would be hugely grateful for any advice at this time.
Thanks
Nick
Sorry to hear your stories guys.
It makes me sick how people can forge bankers drafts and con your car off you, knowing full well that its unlikely you can claim on insurance etc
Its always after the event we blame ourselves - "if only I had waited for the draft to clear" or "if only I had counted the cash properly". Its the theiving scum we should be blaming.
In the TVR wedge forum, a couple of people have said when they well a car, they take a couple of photographs of the purchaser just in case they are trying some kind of scam. I know this does not get your car back, but at least police get a good mug-shot of them.
So much for bankers drafts being as good as cash...
Hope something works out for you.
L33
It makes me sick how people can forge bankers drafts and con your car off you, knowing full well that its unlikely you can claim on insurance etc
Its always after the event we blame ourselves - "if only I had waited for the draft to clear" or "if only I had counted the cash properly". Its the theiving scum we should be blaming.
In the TVR wedge forum, a couple of people have said when they well a car, they take a couple of photographs of the purchaser just in case they are trying some kind of scam. I know this does not get your car back, but at least police get a good mug-shot of them.
So much for bankers drafts being as good as cash...
Hope something works out for you.
L33
hi red head,
Sorry to hear it, £25k is a lot of money to lose…I had a couple of these, told them both to bugger off, I only take cash (it’s a risk I know, but it feels better with the readies in the hand).
When I sold mine I asked my building society about BS Cheque/bankers drafts, and was told, unless you can prove that the BS or bank actually provided the Cheque/draft its your loss should it go wrong, basically the onus is on you to wait (up to six months) for clearance (I know this is unworkable for the customer, but covers the back against loss).
The bank/BS are not interested in you the customer, they are only interested in protecting the bank.
Best way I was told is cash or direct bank transfer (or similar) ONLY letting the car go the next day (after the transfer) so it can not be reversed.
Getting back to Tom3’s near miss, since the perp/scum phoned him from a land line could the police get the phone company to release the land line numbers (for the correct time) and follow them up, (on going fraud etc...) same guy etc…
I know he could have phoned from a phone box/train station etc but it's a start. I have unreleased caller reject on my phone, if they don’t release their number, my phone don’t ring (the phone is for my convenience not the callers), that way I always have a number to phone back.
John
Sorry to hear it, £25k is a lot of money to lose…I had a couple of these, told them both to bugger off, I only take cash (it’s a risk I know, but it feels better with the readies in the hand).
When I sold mine I asked my building society about BS Cheque/bankers drafts, and was told, unless you can prove that the BS or bank actually provided the Cheque/draft its your loss should it go wrong, basically the onus is on you to wait (up to six months) for clearance (I know this is unworkable for the customer, but covers the back against loss).
The bank/BS are not interested in you the customer, they are only interested in protecting the bank.
Best way I was told is cash or direct bank transfer (or similar) ONLY letting the car go the next day (after the transfer) so it can not be reversed.
Getting back to Tom3’s near miss, since the perp/scum phoned him from a land line could the police get the phone company to release the land line numbers (for the correct time) and follow them up, (on going fraud etc...) same guy etc…
I know he could have phoned from a phone box/train station etc but it's a start. I have unreleased caller reject on my phone, if they don’t release their number, my phone don’t ring (the phone is for my convenience not the callers), that way I always have a number to phone back.
John
ccfj1 said:
When I sold mine I asked my building society about BS Cheque/bankers drafts, and was told, unless you can prove that the BS or bank actually provided the Cheque/draft its your loss should it go wrong, basically the onus is on you to wait (up to six months) for clearance (I know this is unworkable for the customer, but covers the back against loss).
The bank/BS are not interested in you the customer, they are only interested in protecting the bank.
The bank/BS are not interested in you the customer, they are only interested in protecting the bank.
What a joke. Any other multi-billion pound industry in the UK acted in that way, it would have a regulator slapped on it faster than you can say 'lawsuit'!!!
Hi Guys,
Pretty new to the forum so hello to you all. Have been reading this thread with interest as I have a 911 for sale on this site and I have received an e-mail from a Swedish chap regarding the car. Looks like I will have to tread carefully. Really sorry to hear the troubles you have had chaps and I hope it all gets resolved for the better. Seems to me that the banks can be classed in the same category as the thieving scum who pull these scams.
Pretty new to the forum so hello to you all. Have been reading this thread with interest as I have a 911 for sale on this site and I have received an e-mail from a Swedish chap regarding the car. Looks like I will have to tread carefully. Really sorry to hear the troubles you have had chaps and I hope it all gets resolved for the better. Seems to me that the banks can be classed in the same category as the thieving scum who pull these scams.
porkersc said:
Hi Guys,
Pretty new to the forum so hello to you all. Have been reading this thread with interest as I have a 911 for sale on this site and I have received an e-mail from a Swedish chap regarding the car. Looks like I will have to tread carefully. Really sorry to hear the troubles you have had chaps and I hope it all gets resolved for the better. Seems to me that the banks can be classed in the same category as the thieving scum who pull these scams.
Pretty new to the forum so hello to you all. Have been reading this thread with interest as I have a 911 for sale on this site and I have received an e-mail from a Swedish chap regarding the car. Looks like I will have to tread carefully. Really sorry to hear the troubles you have had chaps and I hope it all gets resolved for the better. Seems to me that the banks can be classed in the same category as the thieving scum who pull these scams.
sounds like the same guy who did the bm above, why not get together and invite him round?
why not invite the local CID?
Worth a go, but without more to go on than 'it's a foreigner', the police probably won't be interested.
Then again, there was the Menezes case, where someone 'looked' arabic...
:coat:
Seriously - tread very carefully, insist on cash or a direct bank transfer then wait a day or two. And take a photo of him as well.
Then again, there was the Menezes case, where someone 'looked' arabic...
:coat:
Seriously - tread very carefully, insist on cash or a direct bank transfer then wait a day or two. And take a photo of him as well.
porkersc said:
Will e-mail him tonight from home, with some questions such as method of collection, payment etc. Will let you know how I get on. Never felt the need to post before but this stuff really winds me up.
I'd seriously suggest this is one & the same person, in which case invite him round, don't forget to invite us all round too! I'm sure many of us would be happy to assist.
If you're happy to, invite one or more of the victims on this thread. If you have any further evidence/suspicions, invite a copper along also, but not his marked car sitting outside FFS.
IF it's the same person, the previous victim can do a positive ID and either the copper can do a collar there and then, or you can 'apprehend' the individual while the police are called...
But FFS be careful...while these are scam-artists, no telling if they're carrying anything. Unlikely, but you never know.
Thinking about it, best to involve the police, not act on your own.
IF it's the same person, the previous victim can do a positive ID and either the copper can do a collar there and then, or you can 'apprehend' the individual while the police are called...
But FFS be careful...while these are scam-artists, no telling if they're carrying anything. Unlikely, but you never know.
Thinking about it, best to involve the police, not act on your own.
Nick Harmer said:
For God's sake, if you are reading this and are in the process of selling your car, please learn from my misfortune. Based on the previous posts on this thread, I think I was rolled over by the same gang, using the same source of counterfeit RBS drafts.
They definitely said that the draft was counterfeit ? I.e. it was effectively a piece of paper with writing on it, rather than a proper document actually issued by RBS ?
If that's the case, sellers should be able to protect themselves pretty well by phoning the issuing branch and confirming details of the draft before accepting it.
The fraud that seems practically impossible to protect yourself against is when the draft is actually a real one, but drawn on stolen or otherwise non-existent funds so you never actually receive the money. It's still completely unclear to me in what circumstances the banks can do this - at one point do they, or the person from whom the money was stolen become liable for the loss, rather than the person who accepted the draft in good faith ?
outnumbered said:
It's still completely unclear to me in what circumstances the banks can do this - at one point do they, or the person from whom the money was stolen become liable for the loss, rather than the person who accepted the draft in good faith ?
Erm, never? It still astounds me how much banks get away with, and the T&C's they can impose. So they make record profits, while individuals who can ill afford to absorb the loss get royally shafted!!!
Hi Outnumbered
I am still waiting to hear whether the draft was counterfeit or whether it was a real one but stolen. If it's the former I have no comeback but if it's the latter then I can go after RBS for failing to protect me from their inability to manage security around their drafts. In either case, it still took the banking system 5 working days, and one elapsed week, to figure out the fraud.
N
I am still waiting to hear whether the draft was counterfeit or whether it was a real one but stolen. If it's the former I have no comeback but if it's the latter then I can go after RBS for failing to protect me from their inability to manage security around their drafts. In either case, it still took the banking system 5 working days, and one elapsed week, to figure out the fraud.
N
porkersc said:
Will e-mail him tonight from home, with some questions such as method of collection, payment etc. Will let you know how I get on. Never felt the need to post before but this stuff really winds me up.
I've checked the replies to your advert and there's nothing overly suspicious there. Nor can I find any similarities with the M3 fraud.
That's not to say you shouldn't still be careful of course.
Sorry to hear about your losses - especially whilst i have my Elise up for sale. Its scum that do this sort of thing.
Dont rule out foreigners just because they are foreign. I sold my Twin Turbo Supra 18 months ago to a guy called Henrik who travelled all the way from Stockholm in Sweden to check the car & purchase it. I almost lost the sale because i was suspicious when he first explained the situation to me!
treat everyone fairly and respectfully but don't get caught with your trousers down and look after yourself!!
Dont rule out foreigners just because they are foreign. I sold my Twin Turbo Supra 18 months ago to a guy called Henrik who travelled all the way from Stockholm in Sweden to check the car & purchase it. I almost lost the sale because i was suspicious when he first explained the situation to me!
treat everyone fairly and respectfully but don't get caught with your trousers down and look after yourself!!
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