Discussion
520TORQUES said:
Gas1883 said:
I really like it , have I not seen similar before on Colin Edward’s / Nicky Hayden bikes ?
Nicky used a similar concept on his off season test bike, but his race bikes followed the corporate livery the team used.
I do not sadly think there are any American riders who are likely to get anywhere in the top class. Roberts has been in the paddock a long time and has shown great pace, and it may be that is Liberty do get involved that will be one thing they do, along with about 5 sodding races over there!
I think Beaubier was a great talent, but i also think he was not that impressed by the way he treated while there, it is not a friendly environment for some countries in the GP paddock
I think Beaubier was a great talent, but i also think he was not that impressed by the way he treated while there, it is not a friendly environment for some countries in the GP paddock
flatlandsman said:
I think Beaubier was a great talent, but i also think he was not that impressed by the way he treated while there, it is not a friendly environment for some countries in the GP paddock
Generally, it's what a rider makes of it that is key. In a paddock dominated by Italian and Spanish speakers, it's so easy for other nationality riders to feel that they don't fit in. The reality is they can, it's just understanding you are in a different place now. The main thing I think people don't understand is the pressure the riders feel. It is immense, there's no other word for it, and this is the single biggest thing that makes the difference with mindset as to how a rider fares when they move to GP. They will have experienced nothing like it before, even in WSB the pressure is nowhere near as intense. From experience that is one of the factors why the American riders generally seem to struggle a little more, they struggle to learn the final riding step they need due to the pressure of results.
The thing I dont get is that Cameron is a seasoned champion in America, he dominated racing there, OK the talent pool is nothing like the same, but neither was it with Spies, yet he adapted pretty well initially only really suffering with injury later.
Roberts has pretty much been in Europe for years so should be able to adapt.
When I first started watching racing it was dominated by Aussies and Americans, I know times are different, but the talent pool in both countries is now so small.
I was reading a piece by Bayliss recently about his win in Valencia, he was mega annoyed by his time as an official Ducati rider as he wanted to bring in his own team of helpers from SBK, and Ducati would not let him, and he feels strongly that if he had been able to to his time there would have been more productive.
Why do teams limit their riders so much, you hear it routinely about riders not being able to fit the bike, not being able to make adjustments, the old days of making the damn think super rich so it would not seize etc. I recall Jamie Robinson bringing a fair bit of money to a Suzuki 250 team and the bike never fitted him, they just said to him "it works for Numata" Hang on I am bringing say 50 grand to this team and you treat me like this! Hayden had to make and suggest his own modifications to the fairing on his 800 Honda with the No1 plate on it ffs, so obsessed were Puig and Honda with Pedrosa back then, this stuff makes you wince really.
I have never understood this. I am aware in the old dasy Dorna would basically dump riders into a team and say use him, but even then you suurely want your bike and its sponsors to be well represented!
Roberts has pretty much been in Europe for years so should be able to adapt.
When I first started watching racing it was dominated by Aussies and Americans, I know times are different, but the talent pool in both countries is now so small.
I was reading a piece by Bayliss recently about his win in Valencia, he was mega annoyed by his time as an official Ducati rider as he wanted to bring in his own team of helpers from SBK, and Ducati would not let him, and he feels strongly that if he had been able to to his time there would have been more productive.
Why do teams limit their riders so much, you hear it routinely about riders not being able to fit the bike, not being able to make adjustments, the old days of making the damn think super rich so it would not seize etc. I recall Jamie Robinson bringing a fair bit of money to a Suzuki 250 team and the bike never fitted him, they just said to him "it works for Numata" Hang on I am bringing say 50 grand to this team and you treat me like this! Hayden had to make and suggest his own modifications to the fairing on his 800 Honda with the No1 plate on it ffs, so obsessed were Puig and Honda with Pedrosa back then, this stuff makes you wince really.
I have never understood this. I am aware in the old dasy Dorna would basically dump riders into a team and say use him, but even then you suurely want your bike and its sponsors to be well represented!
flatlandsman said:
The thing I dont get is that Cameron is a seasoned champion in America, he dominated racing there, OK the talent pool is nothing like the same, but neither was it with Spies, yet he adapted pretty well initially only really suffering with injury later.
Roberts has pretty much been in Europe for years so should be able to adapt.
When I first started watching racing it was dominated by Aussies and Americans, I know times are different, but the talent pool in both countries is now so small.
I was reading a piece by Bayliss recently about his win in Valencia, he was mega annoyed by his time as an official Ducati rider as he wanted to bring in his own team of helpers from SBK, and Ducati would not let him, and he feels strongly that if he had been able to to his time there would have been more productive.
Why do teams limit their riders so much, you hear it routinely about riders not being able to fit the bike, not being able to make adjustments, the old days of making the damn think super rich so it would not seize etc. I recall Jamie Robinson bringing a fair bit of money to a Suzuki 250 team and the bike never fitted him, they just said to him "it works for Numata" Hang on I am bringing say 50 grand to this team and you treat me like this! Hayden had to make and suggest his own modifications to the fairing on his 800 Honda with the No1 plate on it ffs, so obsessed were Puig and Honda with Pedrosa back then, this stuff makes you wince really.
I have never understood this. I am aware in the old dasy Dorna would basically dump riders into a team and say use him, but even then you suurely want your bike and its sponsors to be well represented!
The main reason for above is because bikes are so, so dynamic compared to say 4 wheel racing. In that, things are much more binary, it's easier to correlate data. In bike racing, where the rider and their body movement forms an intrinsic part of the handling of the machine, it can be much much harder to correlate data. If a rider is feeling pressure for example, they can be doing exactly the same thing on the bike, but just by being a little tense it will change the handling of the machine (for the worse), but you can't put a data trace on that feeling.Roberts has pretty much been in Europe for years so should be able to adapt.
When I first started watching racing it was dominated by Aussies and Americans, I know times are different, but the talent pool in both countries is now so small.
I was reading a piece by Bayliss recently about his win in Valencia, he was mega annoyed by his time as an official Ducati rider as he wanted to bring in his own team of helpers from SBK, and Ducati would not let him, and he feels strongly that if he had been able to to his time there would have been more productive.
Why do teams limit their riders so much, you hear it routinely about riders not being able to fit the bike, not being able to make adjustments, the old days of making the damn think super rich so it would not seize etc. I recall Jamie Robinson bringing a fair bit of money to a Suzuki 250 team and the bike never fitted him, they just said to him "it works for Numata" Hang on I am bringing say 50 grand to this team and you treat me like this! Hayden had to make and suggest his own modifications to the fairing on his 800 Honda with the No1 plate on it ffs, so obsessed were Puig and Honda with Pedrosa back then, this stuff makes you wince really.
I have never understood this. I am aware in the old dasy Dorna would basically dump riders into a team and say use him, but even then you suurely want your bike and its sponsors to be well represented!
This means it's very very easy to get lost in settings, geo, ergonomics. Change one thing and it can have a consequence on dozens of other things. Therefore, when you have a baseline that you know works, you try not to stray too far from it in these days of very minimal testing. Absolutely some people can be too much along the lines of 'we aren't changing that', it's something I have to fight against every so often, but you can always see the reasoning behind why they don't want to change it.
The problem with such limited testing is it can make things very difficult to change. Often, you can change something and actually it turns out it's for the better, but because the machine feels 'different' for the rider, they don't feel quite as comfortable as they were and say they don't like it, or they have in their head they want something different, so have a preconception that it won't be as good, and once again as things aren't as binary as 4 wheels, you aren't sure if it's the setting or the rider.
This is one part where the American riders for example can struggle. The Italian and Spanish riders particularly will often be better at adapting themselves to the bike, and changing their riding style to suit, whereas a lot of other nations riders only understand how to the ride the bike in the way they know and want to try to rewrite how the bike works to make it fit them. Generally when the bike is designed for the chassis, suspension and geo to work in a particular way ('in the window'), you will get better, more consistent results with a rider who can change their style to match the bike than a rider who who tries to change the bike a load to work with how they ride. This is why teams (from the outside) can often appear to be overly stubborn not allowing a rider to change too much.
I do understand what you mean,
But surely in basic terms making a bike fit a rider is not necessarily a huge deal, you want them to be comfortable right?
OK it might subtly change the way the bike also needs to be setup but you are employing this chap to do a job and the better job he does the better your results and therefore the more exposure etc? It usually seems to me that one rider gets preferential treatment at time and the other is just there coz he is paying.
I understand stuff like a real oddjob like McCoy or Elias who need drastic changes, but most riders really surely only need basics. I understand that preferring riders who can adjust quickly is desirable, but allowing a rider to not fit on a bike or even allowing them to make fairly basic changes seems stupid to me
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
This happens in cars aswell by the way
But surely in basic terms making a bike fit a rider is not necessarily a huge deal, you want them to be comfortable right?
OK it might subtly change the way the bike also needs to be setup but you are employing this chap to do a job and the better job he does the better your results and therefore the more exposure etc? It usually seems to me that one rider gets preferential treatment at time and the other is just there coz he is paying.
I understand stuff like a real oddjob like McCoy or Elias who need drastic changes, but most riders really surely only need basics. I understand that preferring riders who can adjust quickly is desirable, but allowing a rider to not fit on a bike or even allowing them to make fairly basic changes seems stupid to me
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
This happens in cars aswell by the way
rev-erend said:
Only another 6 weeks to the 1st race. Can't wait.
Genuinely looking forward to it. Just six months ago I was expecting to have cancelled my sub and be watching highlights at most, funny how much has changed, even though the inevitable Pecco championship still happened. Watching MM93 and FQ20's progress over the next couple of tests is going to be pretty engrossing, pretty certain only one of them will be smiling!FourWheelDrift said:
Regarding Hayden's 2006 win, wasn't he hampered by being the test mule for the new 2007 (800cc) bikes. Testing aero and stuff, while Pedrosa had all the coherent working 2006 kit?
That's what all the loonies on the the Colin Edwards forum would have had you believe!Obviously 06 was a great year for Hayden, Dani made a huge mistake at Estoril to make it more interesting!
Hayden was obviously not a big fella was he, but Dani as we know is tiny, the 800 bike was pretty much built for him I think, Hayden never really properly fitted on it I gather. I know he did not get a fairing that fully fitted him until later int he year which is a bit odd
If Hayden did do a lot of the mule work it was clear that he still did not fit on the bike very well in 07. You have to say that was poor but not a shock from Honda, but he was carrying the number 1 plate!!
Hayden was obviously not a big fella was he, but Dani as we know is tiny, the 800 bike was pretty much built for him I think, Hayden never really properly fitted on it I gather. I know he did not get a fairing that fully fitted him until later int he year which is a bit odd
If Hayden did do a lot of the mule work it was clear that he still did not fit on the bike very well in 07. You have to say that was poor but not a shock from Honda, but he was carrying the number 1 plate!!
flatlandsman said:
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
You are going some way back as they were all on 2T when things were very different!You could spend a week with a rider at circuit now going through nothing other than engine braking and traction strats and you still would have things you wanted to try.
That’s not even looking at suspension, geo, flex/stiffness of various parts, it’s an absolute minefield! You have to try to keep as much as known quantity as possible, particularly with new riders to a class.
pitlane said:
flatlandsman said:
I think Beaubier was a great talent, but i also think he was not that impressed by the way he treated while there, it is not a friendly environment for some countries in the GP paddock
Generally, it's what a rider makes of it that is key. In a paddock dominated by Italian and Spanish speakers, it's so easy for other nationality riders to feel that they don't fit in. The reality is they can, it's just understanding you are in a different place now. The main thing I think people don't understand is the pressure the riders feel. It is immense, there's no other word for it, and this is the single biggest thing that makes the difference with mindset as to how a rider fares when they move to GP. They will have experienced nothing like it before, even in WSB the pressure is nowhere near as intense. From experience that is one of the factors why the American riders generally seem to struggle a little more, they struggle to learn the final riding step they need due to the pressure of results.
flatlandsman said:
I do understand what you mean,
But surely in basic terms making a bike fit a rider is not necessarily a huge deal, you want them to be comfortable right?
OK it might subtly change the way the bike also needs to be setup but you are employing this chap to do a job and the better job he does the better your results and therefore the more exposure etc? It usually seems to me that one rider gets preferential treatment at time and the other is just there coz he is paying.
I understand stuff like a real oddjob like McCoy or Elias who need drastic changes, but most riders really surely only need basics. I understand that preferring riders who can adjust quickly is desirable, but allowing a rider to not fit on a bike or even allowing them to make fairly basic changes seems stupid to me
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
This happens in cars aswell by the way
A more recent example of that in practice is Ducati and Fabio Digiantonio. The engineers don't ride and the riders don't engineer....But surely in basic terms making a bike fit a rider is not necessarily a huge deal, you want them to be comfortable right?
OK it might subtly change the way the bike also needs to be setup but you are employing this chap to do a job and the better job he does the better your results and therefore the more exposure etc? It usually seems to me that one rider gets preferential treatment at time and the other is just there coz he is paying.
I understand stuff like a real oddjob like McCoy or Elias who need drastic changes, but most riders really surely only need basics. I understand that preferring riders who can adjust quickly is desirable, but allowing a rider to not fit on a bike or even allowing them to make fairly basic changes seems stupid to me
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
This happens in cars aswell by the way
rodericb said:
flatlandsman said:
I do understand what you mean,
But surely in basic terms making a bike fit a rider is not necessarily a huge deal, you want them to be comfortable right?
OK it might subtly change the way the bike also needs to be setup but you are employing this chap to do a job and the better job he does the better your results and therefore the more exposure etc? It usually seems to me that one rider gets preferential treatment at time and the other is just there coz he is paying.
I understand stuff like a real oddjob like McCoy or Elias who need drastic changes, but most riders really surely only need basics. I understand that preferring riders who can adjust quickly is desirable, but allowing a rider to not fit on a bike or even allowing them to make fairly basic changes seems stupid to me
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
This happens in cars aswell by the way
A more recent example of that in practice is Ducati and Fabio Digiantonio. The engineers don't ride and the riders don't engineer....But surely in basic terms making a bike fit a rider is not necessarily a huge deal, you want them to be comfortable right?
OK it might subtly change the way the bike also needs to be setup but you are employing this chap to do a job and the better job he does the better your results and therefore the more exposure etc? It usually seems to me that one rider gets preferential treatment at time and the other is just there coz he is paying.
I understand stuff like a real oddjob like McCoy or Elias who need drastic changes, but most riders really surely only need basics. I understand that preferring riders who can adjust quickly is desirable, but allowing a rider to not fit on a bike or even allowing them to make fairly basic changes seems stupid to me
I don't think it happens so much now, but speak to guys like Leon, Chris Walker, Jamie Rob and they used to say they were often not allowed to do stuff to their bike.
This happens in cars aswell by the way
All the riders will have had fittings prior to the Valencia test before moving to new teams/bikes etc (otherwise Marini would never have got anywhere with Honda in Valencia for example). So the next test for all of them should be about settling into, or not, the factory base settings and how that feels for them at Sepang. Then relative changes to those base settings to get up to speed.
I'd imagine they are all anxious to find the 'base' setting that works the best, so anything else is incremental. Otherwsie as we hear so often, they'll be chasing a base set up round after round.
I'm a little sceptical of old racers views of teams and set ups.... if only this, if only that .... They have to carry the belief that they're the fastest in the world, if they didn't, they wouldn't be the people that they are or risk what they risk, that mental attitude carries forward to their reflections/memories of past failures or results as well. There's truth in there, is it as extreme as they make out always.
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