BSB 2024 Grids

[slopes]

graeme4130 said:

flatlandsman said:

Hickman would not want to use a Duke on the roads I would imagine, he has more say I think in that team than people realise. And I suspect if they did this he would leave and form his own team around BMW I guess.

I was not really comparing SBK and BSB bikes they are both subtly different, what was interesting last year was that BMW had poor years in BSB AND SBK really, I think mainly as Redding could not setup a paddock stand, but Pete was also very poor in BSB, and he would have been using the latest bike, was Haslam not using a 22 bike? Or 223 bike and 22 engines. So maybe more sorted? Easier to ride.

Not taking anything away from him, he rode superbly, but they do get it wrong at times with new bikes!!

Interestingly it seemed to me Gerloff was getting the most out of it in SBK towards year end.

The team could easily run Hicky on a BMW for the roads, funded by FHO, but under his own PHR team, or like the Triumph he runs in separate livery
You're right though, I'm not sure he'd want to ride a Ducati on the track, but also isn't stupid and knows that he's onto a really good thing with FHO's cash, and it's easy enough to switch between bikes from short circuits to roads.

Leon was on a 23 bike, but had old shape fairings as SMR had a load of them and they were very cheap (new carbon fairings are circa £12k a set, and you can easily go through 10-15 sets in a season, so using old shape ones when you're running your own team on your own budget is a no brainer )

And to be fair, without a couple of mechanicals, Haslam would have been in the title fight at the end of the year so not a disaster for BMW but agreed it could have been so much better. Redding doesn't seem to work with the BMW, he went like a man possessed on the Ducati - say what you like about him, he was by far the dominant rider in BSB on the V4R and ran Toprak pretty close - but just doesn't seem to gel with the BMW for some reason.
FHO had a shocker last year and Brookes must have wondered what he had done by signing with them, there or thereabouts prior to the TT then afterwards it waslike they just went backwards or everyone else made a big leap forwards and they didn't.

[graeme4130]

slopes said:

And to be fair, without a couple of mechanicals, Haslam would have been in the title fight at the end of the year so not a disaster for BMW but agreed it could have been so much better. Redding doesn't seem to work with the BMW, he went like a man possessed on the Ducati - say what you like about him, he was by far the dominant rider in BSB on the V4R and ran Toprak pretty close - but just doesn't seem to gel with the BMW for some reason.
FHO had a shocker last year and Brookes must have wondered what he had done by signing with them, there or thereabouts prior to the TT then afterwards it waslike they just went backwards or everyone else made a big leap forwards and they didn't.

Leon had a really rubbish season with mechanicals, but I understand the problem is sorted for this year
You’re right about Scott. He was mega in BSB, and right at the sharp end on the Ducati in wsbk, but it all seems to have fallen flat on the bmw and the demotion to the Benovo team must’ve been a bitter pill to swallow for him - although I actually think the reduction in pressure on him, and the rivalry he has with VDM, might actually be the best move for him as he has nothing to lose and very thing to prove without being in the factory spotlight
Either way, I think this year is shaping up to be a really good season if the front end regulars can keep up with Bulega

[Zarco]

I'm getting the feeling Toprak is going to drag up the performance of the other Wsbk BMW riders by showing them what is possible / driving development of the bike in a beneficial direction. That and BMW really seem to mean business with the test riders and investment.

[graeme4130]

Zarco said:

I'm getting the feeling Toprak is going to drag up the performance of the other Wsbk BMW riders by showing them what is possible / driving development of the bike in a beneficial direction. That and BMW really seem to mean business with the test riders and investment.

I'd love to see him back up at the front, and he's easily one of my favourite riders.
However, the snapshot of short run speed that he's produced at the tests doesn't answer the problems that the BMW has always had, and what was Redding's main frustrations : The brakes don't last race distance (I assume a serious issue for Toprak who's notoriously hard on the brakes) and the bike is very hard on tyres (less of a problem for him as he's not a tyre slider on corner exit, and gets it stopped and drives out)
From what I've read and heard, the latter is to do with the electronics, as BMW will only use their own system, and not the Magenetti Marelli system that every other team on the grid use
Either way, I'm really looking forward to WSBk starting in just a couple of weeks. Feels like it's been a long winter of no racing

[flatlandsman]

I think people over rate Redding on the Duke, Alvaro made everything he and Chaz in fairness did look fairly average the last two years and were he a little more polished he would have utterly dominated both years, he still did pretty much. I know the bike was changed subtly.

Redding is a class above most BSB riders for sure, and on by far the best bike out there he dominated BSB as many others in that team did for years including Byrne, but in SBK he was found wanting last year and did well on the Duke before Alvaro utterly battered the field. So I think that shows you were he really is. He bought GP form and level to BSB as many others have done in the past. If Cal came back now he would be the same.

[graeme4130]

flatlandsman said:

I think people over rate Redding on the Duke, Alvaro made everything he and Chaz in fairness did look fairly average the last two years and were he a little more polished he would have utterly dominated both years, he still did pretty much. I know the bike was changed subtly.

Redding is a class above most BSB riders for sure, and on by far the best bike out there he dominated BSB as many others in that team did for years including Byrne, but in SBK he was found wanting last year and did well on the Duke before Alvaro utterly battered the field. So I think that shows you were he really is. He bought GP form and level to BSB as many others have done in the past. If Cal came back now he would be the same.

Remember Redding dominated BSB in his first year there, on lots of tracks he's never raced at

[Zarco]

graeme4130 said:

Zarco said:

I'm getting the feeling Toprak is going to drag up the performance of the other Wsbk BMW riders by showing them what is possible / driving development of the bike in a beneficial direction. That and BMW really seem to mean business with the test riders and investment.

I'd love to see him back up at the front, and he's easily one of my favourite riders.
However, the snapshot of short run speed that he's produced at the tests doesn't answer the problems that the BMW has always had, and what was Redding's main frustrations : The brakes don't last race distance (I assume a serious issue for Toprak who's notoriously hard on the brakes) and the bike is very hard on tyres (less of a problem for him as he's not a tyre slider on corner exit, and gets it stopped and drives out)
From what I've read and heard, the latter is to do with the electronics, as BMW will only use their own system, and not the Magenetti Marelli system that every other team on the grid use
Either way, I'm really looking forward to WSBk starting in just a couple of weeks. Feels like it's been a long winter of no racing

Yeah I wasn't suggesting Toprak was going to be a definite title contender this year, rather that he will raise the game of the BMW. Hopefully bringing a few of the other BMW riders with him a bit.

WSBK is really interesting this year with all the rider changes and new teams.

[Tam_Mullen]

flatlandsman said:

I think people over rate Redding on the Duke, Alvaro made everything he and Chaz in fairness did look fairly average the last two years and were he a little more polished he would have utterly dominated both years, he still did pretty much. I know the bike was changed subtly.

Redding is a class above most BSB riders for sure, and on by far the best bike out there he dominated BSB as many others in that team did for years including Byrne, but in SBK he was found wanting last year and did well on the Duke before Alvaro utterly battered the field. So I think that shows you were he really is. He bought GP form and level to BSB as many others have done in the past. If Cal came back now he would be the same.

Its unfair to undermine what Scott did when he arrived in SBK just because Alvaro is an alien (in SBK terms) on that bike. Thats like saying Dovizioso is no use on a bike because Marquez/Lorenzo dominated during his time in GPs?!

He was 'found wanting' on a BMW which no-one has been able to make work until Toprak jumped on it (or so it seems so far) and with Toprak being a generational talent I again think thats pretty unfair!

Cal wouldn't dominate the BSB if he came back. He's missing a huge part of the drive which Scott had, and thats the hunger and desire to prove everyone wrong.

[freedman]

graeme4130 said:

Remember Redding dominated BSB in his first year there, on lots of tracks he's never raced at

I think its over egging it to say Redding dominated

More that Ducati domintated and Redding pipped his team mate to the title

[Zarco]

freedman said:

graeme4130 said:

Remember Redding dominated BSB in his first year there, on lots of tracks he's never raced at

I think its over egging it to say Redding dominated

More that Ducati domintated and Redding pipped his team mate to the title

Still seriously impressive given the nature of the tracks in BSB compared to WSBK/MotoGP.

[graeme4130]

Zarco said:

graeme4130 said:

Zarco said:

I'm getting the feeling Toprak is going to drag up the performance of the other Wsbk BMW riders by showing them what is possible / driving development of the bike in a beneficial direction. That and BMW really seem to mean business with the test riders and investment.

I'd love to see him back up at the front, and he's easily one of my favourite riders.
However, the snapshot of short run speed that he's produced at the tests doesn't answer the problems that the BMW has always had, and what was Redding's main frustrations : The brakes don't last race distance (I assume a serious issue for Toprak who's notoriously hard on the brakes) and the bike is very hard on tyres (less of a problem for him as he's not a tyre slider on corner exit, and gets it stopped and drives out)
From what I've read and heard, the latter is to do with the electronics, as BMW will only use their own system, and not the Magenetti Marelli system that every other team on the grid use
Either way, I'm really looking forward to WSBk starting in just a couple of weeks. Feels like it's been a long winter of no racing

Yeah I wasn't suggesting Toprak was going to be a definite title contender this year, rather that he will raise the game of the BMW. Hopefully bringing a few of the other BMW riders with him a bit.

WSBK is really interesting this year with all the rider changes and new teams.

Yeah, he should certainly show the others that decent speed is possible
I'd live to see him in the mix again, and there's a few new faces that can throw in some curveballs this year, so should be an interesting season

[slopes]

graeme4130 said:

Zarco said:

graeme4130 said:

Zarco said:

I'm getting the feeling Toprak is going to drag up the performance of the other Wsbk BMW riders by showing them what is possible / driving development of the bike in a beneficial direction. That and BMW really seem to mean business with the test riders and investment.

I'd love to see him back up at the front, and he's easily one of my favourite riders.
However, the snapshot of short run speed that he's produced at the tests doesn't answer the problems that the BMW has always had, and what was Redding's main frustrations : The brakes don't last race distance (I assume a serious issue for Toprak who's notoriously hard on the brakes) and the bike is very hard on tyres (less of a problem for him as he's not a tyre slider on corner exit, and gets it stopped and drives out)
From what I've read and heard, the latter is to do with the electronics, as BMW will only use their own system, and not the Magenetti Marelli system that every other team on the grid use
Either way, I'm really looking forward to WSBk starting in just a couple of weeks. Feels like it's been a long winter of no racing

Yeah I wasn't suggesting Toprak was going to be a definite title contender this year, rather that he will raise the game of the BMW. Hopefully bringing a few of the other BMW riders with him a bit.

WSBK is really interesting this year with all the rider changes and new teams.

Yeah, he should certainly show the others that decent speed is possible
I'd live to see him in the mix again, and there's a few new faces that can throw in some curveballs this year, so should be an interesting season

I still say he is arguably the best rider on the grid currently, if it hadn't been for Bautista and Ducati, he would be a 3 time world champion already.
He will make that BMW do things it didn't know it could this year, he may not be the best of the rest and may have a few offs or technicals but he will be there or thereabouts

[flatlandsman]

For me Toprak is head and shoulders above anyone. We know the Yamaha is a great bike from BSB, but against basically a GP bike that costs 35 grand more than it the Turk was in the fight all year, and riding on the edge of everything to be there.

I am not having a huge pop at Redding here, he is a very good rider but he is also British so we tend to have rose tinted specs, the bike was subtly different when Alvaro got on it yes but he also dominated on it before remember in the similar spec to Reddings years.

A lot of riders when they switch codes bring their speed with them, i think redding did this in BSB, Whtham did it years ago iN Supersport, came and rode an R6 at Donington from SBK and a few GP rides and mullered everyone.

[egor110]

Well Rabat didn't seem to bring much to the table when he came to bsb .

[Drabbesttunic]

egor110 said:

Well Rabat didn't seem to bring much to the table when he came to bsb .

He doesn't take much anywhere he goes

[Zarco]

Drabbesttunic said:

egor110 said:

Well Rabat didn't seem to bring much to the table when he came to bsb .

He doesn't take much anywhere he goes

Not since Moto2.

[graeme4130]

Zarco said:

Drabbesttunic said:

egor110 said:

Well Rabat didn't seem to bring much to the table when he came to bsb .

He doesn't take much anywhere he goes

Not since Moto2.

He was unreal in Moto2. I saw him at Almeria some year's back on that bike, and he was superb on it. Had so much bike control, and just payed with it like a toy - He dominated in that season
IIRC, him living at Almeria circuit for 6 months pre/early season with Moto2 bikes and team at his disposal, was the reason GP put a test limitation rules into place. He would ride pretty much every day, and when there was other stuff on track, he'd be out at 7am for a few hours before it started, do the lunch hour and then hang around in the afternoon to ride in the evening before it got dark
I appreciate he's from a stupidly wealthy family, but I'd hate to think of the cost of having that much testing at your disposal and just the sheer cost of having a few bikes, technicians and what looked like a truck full of wheels and tyres
He had his own garage that was stacked with everything, and some massive motorhome in the paddock that he lived in

What's been said above seems true though, and he was pretty crap in BSB, not been great in WSBK, and although he won the ESBK/CEV Sbk class, it's not exactly a stacked field there

I heard his tantrum at Cadwell when he rode (very briefly) for Tag Honda was something a bit special
Saying that, he was bloody good initially at Snetterton when he first made an appearance for McAms. I think Tommy (?) clattered him in the race, and his performance went downhill from there onwards before leaving again

[graeme4130]

flatlandsman said:

For me Toprak is head and shoulders above anyone. We know the Yamaha is a great bike from BSB, but against basically a GP bike that costs 35 grand more than it the Turk was in the fight all year, and riding on the edge of everything to be there.

I am not having a huge pop at Redding here, he is a very good rider but he is also British so we tend to have rose tinted specs, the bike was subtly different when Alvaro got on it yes but he also dominated on it before remember in the similar spec to Reddings years.

A lot of riders when they switch codes bring their speed with them, i think redding did this in BSB, Whtham did it years ago iN Supersport, came and rode an R6 at Donington from SBK and a few GP rides and mullered everyone.

I appreciate his contracts with BMW would no way allow this, but how good would it be to see him do a BSB wildcard at Cadwell ?
I suspect he'd get his arse handed to him, but he's an entertaining rider and mega to watch

[slopes]

graeme4130 said:

flatlandsman said:

For me Toprak is head and shoulders above anyone. We know the Yamaha is a great bike from BSB, but against basically a GP bike that costs 35 grand more than it the Turk was in the fight all year, and riding on the edge of everything to be there.

I am not having a huge pop at Redding here, he is a very good rider but he is also British so we tend to have rose tinted specs, the bike was subtly different when Alvaro got on it yes but he also dominated on it before remember in the similar spec to Reddings years.

A lot of riders when they switch codes bring their speed with them, i think redding did this in BSB, Whtham did it years ago iN Supersport, came and rode an R6 at Donington from SBK and a few GP rides and mullered everyone.

I appreciate his contracts with BMW would no way allow this, but how good would it be to see him do a BSB wildcard at Cadwell ?
I suspect he'd get his arse handed to him, but he's an entertaining rider and mega to watch

It would be good to see that's for sure but not so sure about having his arse handed to him, i think he might surprise us all. maybe he wouldn't win but he would be properly close to the front

[LucyP]

graeme4130 said:

MSVR have put the info out for the resurfacing and layout changes for Navarra
Looks like they’ve improved it as some of those tight sections were not amazing according to those that rode there in the test last spring
It’ll also
Level the playing field as anyone that’s ridden there last year won’t have any meaningful data

https://www.msv.com/news/2024/jan/29/msv-announces...

Read it again!

They have resurfaced parts of it only, to remove the worst of the bumps. They layout changes are not being done until after this year's BSB, so there will be plenty of valid data from last year's test. There is also an extensive test this year just before the race weekend, so plenty of time to gather more data.