Discussion
OK one for the experienced riders here. I'm still a beginner but have a habit of trying to learn *very* fast... anyway went out on my favourite local road (A264 between East Grinstead and Langton Green) because of all the corners and gradients, and ended up behind a couple of lads in a Honda S2000. As the road cleared, they went for it in a big way, and for the first time I was having to keep the bike between 8 and 13k revs just to keep up on the straights. I'm sure the bike could have got past easily but they'd be right on my arse in the corners so I thought I'd follow and see whether I could corner a bike like I can corner a car (I'm pretty good in a car)...
Anyway the S2000 went into bends without braking at all and I had to bottle slightly, countersteered as much as I could dare and leant the bike right over in all the bends. I *just* kept him in sight until he got stuck behind traffic. So one lesson learned - a quick car with someone who knows how to drive is faster on a tight twisty road than a bike with a muppet beginner rider on it
However in a lot of the corners I felt the bike 'squirming' - just like my Runner 180 scooter used to when pushed too hard. The issue with the scooter was a design thing - the scooter was two halves separated by a bush, and that bush was weak, letting lateral movement between the two ends of the scooter. However there's no way a CBR600 would have that problem.
So is the squirming just poor technique on my part (most likely), or could it be due to the bike being worn out (it's a '98 CBR600F with 60k miles on the clock, been used as a commuter, full service history but I guess some components are tired - also it has different tyres front and rear, but both are round and not squared off, plenty of tread, chicken strips today down to 1cm on front and 2cm on back...)???
If the squirming is poor technique on my part, what am I doing wrong? I tried not to ride 'red-mist' style, but position on the road correctly for the bends, think two bends ahead (you have to on the A264) and attempt to force countersteering when brain-panic tries to go the other way.
To test whether it was a one-off, on the way back home I went up Riverhill Bend (anyone from around Sevenoaks area will know that bend) as fast as I dared, it's a triple apex jobby uphill with a fast right, a tightening left, a surface change mid corner, and an opening right with a junction on the right of the road afterwards (lethal... and a silly bend to performance test anything, but it's such a rush...) - and I suppose I could have dragged my knee on the ground on the second bend (uphill) but I was wearing jeans and was trying to lean the bike, not hang off it. The bike was weaving under me like my old scooter.
So it's repeatable.
Any ideas? Apologies for the manicness of this email but that ride was such an adrenalin rush that I'm buzzing like a fridge and feel as high as a kite... absolutely awesome, even for a beginner like me that was immense fun...
Anyway the S2000 went into bends without braking at all and I had to bottle slightly, countersteered as much as I could dare and leant the bike right over in all the bends. I *just* kept him in sight until he got stuck behind traffic. So one lesson learned - a quick car with someone who knows how to drive is faster on a tight twisty road than a bike with a muppet beginner rider on it
However in a lot of the corners I felt the bike 'squirming' - just like my Runner 180 scooter used to when pushed too hard. The issue with the scooter was a design thing - the scooter was two halves separated by a bush, and that bush was weak, letting lateral movement between the two ends of the scooter. However there's no way a CBR600 would have that problem.
So is the squirming just poor technique on my part (most likely), or could it be due to the bike being worn out (it's a '98 CBR600F with 60k miles on the clock, been used as a commuter, full service history but I guess some components are tired - also it has different tyres front and rear, but both are round and not squared off, plenty of tread, chicken strips today down to 1cm on front and 2cm on back...)???
If the squirming is poor technique on my part, what am I doing wrong? I tried not to ride 'red-mist' style, but position on the road correctly for the bends, think two bends ahead (you have to on the A264) and attempt to force countersteering when brain-panic tries to go the other way.
To test whether it was a one-off, on the way back home I went up Riverhill Bend (anyone from around Sevenoaks area will know that bend) as fast as I dared, it's a triple apex jobby uphill with a fast right, a tightening left, a surface change mid corner, and an opening right with a junction on the right of the road afterwards (lethal... and a silly bend to performance test anything, but it's such a rush...) - and I suppose I could have dragged my knee on the ground on the second bend (uphill) but I was wearing jeans and was trying to lean the bike, not hang off it. The bike was weaving under me like my old scooter.
So it's repeatable.
Any ideas? Apologies for the manicness of this email but that ride was such an adrenalin rush that I'm buzzing like a fridge and feel as high as a kite... absolutely awesome, even for a beginner like me that was immense fun...
Usual causes...
Squared rear tyre - you've already crossed that one off
Tyre pressures - check them regularly, they can make a big difference.
Worn wheel bearings - get the wheels off the ground and check for lateral movement on the wheels
Worn head bearng - get the front off the ground and check it turns smoothly, put a finger on the bearing and see if there's any movement as you roll the bike forward then slam the front brake on.
Worn fork bushes - get the front off the ground and check for uneven movement of the forks if you pull the wheel sideways
Wheel alignment - bike on centrestand (or paddock stand) run a string round the back wheel and check the front wheel is parallel to it.
Probably a few other possibilites too. Most of those are easy to fix. but the head bearings are a bit tricky.
Squared rear tyre - you've already crossed that one off
Tyre pressures - check them regularly, they can make a big difference.
Worn wheel bearings - get the wheels off the ground and check for lateral movement on the wheels
Worn head bearng - get the front off the ground and check it turns smoothly, put a finger on the bearing and see if there's any movement as you roll the bike forward then slam the front brake on.
Worn fork bushes - get the front off the ground and check for uneven movement of the forks if you pull the wheel sideways
Wheel alignment - bike on centrestand (or paddock stand) run a string round the back wheel and check the front wheel is parallel to it.
Probably a few other possibilites too. Most of those are easy to fix. but the head bearings are a bit tricky.
cyberface said:
So is the squirming just poor technique on my part (most likely), or could it be due to the bike being worn out (it's a '98 CBR600F with 60k miles on the clock, been used as a commuter, full service history but I guess some components are tired - also it has different tyres front and rear, but both are round and not squared off, plenty of tread, chicken strips today down to 1cm on front and 2cm on back...)???
I'm no expert at this at all, but I suspect this paragraph should give you a hint. At 60K if the suspension is still original etc then it will be passed its best. Second, bikes are way more tyre sensitive than cars so having two different ones may play into, but may not. On the chicken strip front, if thats where they are post ride then you still have plenty of lean in hand. However, it could just be, and this isnt meant patronisingly, that you are trying too hard to go to fast to soon. Take your time a bit to get used the the bike and how it works in different situations, then you will know what it should feel like in different situations. You certainly don't want to be getting into situations where you are going to quick for capabilities - in a car you may well get away with it, on a bike you may not!
I was lucky enough to own an Elise for several years. There's no question in my mind that a decent RWD sports car like that or the S2000 can comfortably hold their own against bikers because, erm, I generally did. Four wheels makes one helluva difference on the twisties and you don't have to worry about manhole covers, gravel, tar banding etc. on the apexes of every bend. Straight line is a different story of course.
Twit said:
However, it could just be, and this isnt meant patronisingly, that you are trying too hard to go to fast to soon. Take your time a bit to get used the the bike and how it works in different situations, then you will know what it should feel like in different situations. You certainly don't want to be getting into situations where you are going to quick for capabilities - in a car you may well get away with it, on a bike you may not!
Not taken patronisingly at all - you're 100% correct. I'm not a kid any more and deliberately have been working my way up slowly, getting to know the bike to the point where it doesn't feel like a heavy machine that I'm forcing around, but more like it's not even there (so to speak). This is perhaps the first run where I've had to try to keep up with a car... and yes I used it as an excuse to lean the bike more, to try to carry more speed in corners, and to extend my experience, rather than just pootle around at the same speed all the time. Also I absolutely *love* that road 
You're probably right, I was probably riding just over the limits of my capability in some places, but in others I was clearly not (when I was planning corners ahead and thinking about road positioning, I was *not* balls-out manic)... and at no point did I run out of road and have to anchor down. It was all about corner speed (since that's what's exciting to me, not straight-line speed, which all bikes do pretty well). I was deliberately trying to use as little brake as possible, and to go fast in the corners. Perhaps that *is* 'too fast too soon', but the fact that a car got away from me suggests that I wasn't riding 'fast' at all
Perhaps this is one of those runs where I *am* learning what the bike does in certain situations, like harder-than-average cornering - and was wondering whether it's just poor technique and my limit, or the limits of the bike. I have 4+ years of daily 2-wheel riding experience under my belt but it was all scooters (100 mph ones, mind you) - I'm focusing on learning what a proper bike can do. I like to think I've already got the hazard awareness, the defensive riding, road positioning and surface awareness hammered into my brain
First thing to check is the tyre pressures, I think. Unfortunately I have no garage and no hardstanding or anywhere else to work on the bike, so all the other stuff will require a trip to my local bike mechanic...
surfsofa said:
I was lucky enough to own an Elise for several years. There's no question in my mind that a decent RWD sports car like that or the S2000 can comfortably hold their own against bikers because, erm, I generally did. Four wheels makes one helluva difference on the twisties and you don't have to worry about manhole covers, gravel, tar banding etc. on the apexes of every bend. Straight line is a different story of course.
Yup, only very well ridden litre sports could get anywhere near me in my tuned VX220 turbo on that road... didn't realise the S2000 was as quick as an Elise-based car though... though it's got one hell of an engine!StevRS said:
Ride at your own pace, not someone else's.
You carry on doing tricks like that & you'll end up dead.
Reasons for squirming: Riding way beyond your own limits.
Slow down!
Sorry, the race face came out of nowhere You carry on doing tricks like that & you'll end up dead.
Reasons for squirming: Riding way beyond your own limits.
Slow down!
I've been bloody responsible with the bike since I bought it a few months ago. It's just *that* road, and the speed I used to carry in cars like VX220 turbo, Noble, supercharged 993, etc... I thought I'd left the red mist generator in the footwell of the VXT but there appears to be one on the bike as well
I think I need some more training, I'm not in this for heroic scars or death wishes, just the thrill. And this is the first time I've got off the bike buzzing like crazy. And yes, I know it's wrong on the road, but on this particular road, you don't need to go more than 70 mph to still be on the ragged edge in most machinery (I guess stuff with downforce would breeze it).
So you reckon if I was a better rider, I could corner the same bike faster with no squirming? What do you suggest I do to my technique? I'm a listener and a learner - if someone can explain something to me that I understand then I'll remember it and put it into practice. I know I'm no riding God, and don't pretend to be. Until I'm confident in the fast group at trackdays I'll be considering myself a 'beginner' just as I did with cars (though my 16/17-20 yr old antics were probably more to do with luck than skill).
catso said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Squared rear tyre - you've already crossed that one off
Front tyre worn? mine is worn into a bit of a 'V' profile and it definitely feels a bit 'squirmy' under certain conditions.note to self, must get new tyres......
Then it's time for extra training. I used Kent & Sussex for my test ages ago, but I've heard mention of excellent value-for-money riding days organised by the cops, who are the best trained road riders out there - what is generally considered the best training to have for enjoying a bike on twisty roads? Track riding will come later.
RizzoTheRat said:
Bikesafe is the one run by the cops. Other good options are the IAM and RoSPA. Google will turn up websites for all 3. There alre also track based training days that focus on road skills not track racing.
Cheers Rizzo. Anyone here know about Bikesafe near or around NW Kent? Are weekends possible, or is it just weekdays? I'll google this stuff, but if anyone here has direct experience of doing these courses in my area then I'd love to hear your opinions.
RizzoTheRat said:
Usual causes...
Squared rear tyre - you've already crossed that one off
Tyre pressures - check them regularly, they can make a big difference.
Worn wheel bearings - get the wheels off the ground and check for lateral movement on the wheels
Worn head bearng - get the front off the ground and check it turns smoothly, put a finger on the bearing and see if there's any movement as you roll the bike forward then slam the front brake on.
Worn fork bushes - get the front off the ground and check for uneven movement of the forks if you pull the wheel sideways
Wheel alignment - bike on centrestand (or paddock stand) run a string round the back wheel and check the front wheel is parallel to it.
Probably a few other possibilites too. Most of those are easy to fix. but the head bearings are a bit tricky.
Basically - the same list I would have put together. I think worn head bearings or wheel bearings are the most likely cause, but at 60K knacked or damping free shocks may also be a major contributor.Squared rear tyre - you've already crossed that one off
Tyre pressures - check them regularly, they can make a big difference.
Worn wheel bearings - get the wheels off the ground and check for lateral movement on the wheels
Worn head bearng - get the front off the ground and check it turns smoothly, put a finger on the bearing and see if there's any movement as you roll the bike forward then slam the front brake on.
Worn fork bushes - get the front off the ground and check for uneven movement of the forks if you pull the wheel sideways
Wheel alignment - bike on centrestand (or paddock stand) run a string round the back wheel and check the front wheel is parallel to it.
Probably a few other possibilites too. Most of those are easy to fix. but the head bearings are a bit tricky.
cyberface said:
Anyone here know about Bikesafe near or around NW Kent? Are weekends possible, or is it just weekdays? I'll google this stuff, but if anyone here has direct experience of doing these courses in my area then I'd love to hear your opinions.
There's one in south London : http://www.bikesafe-london.co.uk/warren.htmI'm doing that one the weekend after next. Will be interesting to see what's changed since passing my test in May. I can hear it now "observation, observation, observation"
Book up for California Superbike school, they will tranform your cornering, throttle control will make a big difference to how the suspension 'sqirms' were you rolling the throttle on all the way through the corner? If not the suspension is continually reacting to the change in balance.
On my first session I found that I was resisting counter steer with my other hand (quite common apparantly) once I was aware of this the bike turned like you wouldn't believe.
I can't recommend it highly enough, money much better spent than suspension upgrades.
On my first session I found that I was resisting counter steer with my other hand (quite common apparantly) once I was aware of this the bike turned like you wouldn't believe.
I can't recommend it highly enough, money much better spent than suspension upgrades.
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