Petrol motorcycle sales banned from 2040
Discussion
OutInTheShed said:
Most bikes are used in more of a point'n'squirt manner than cars around town, people do not ride seeking economy.
If economy/CO2 was key, then maybe a hybrid bike would be a thing?
Economy matters a bit to me, because of tank range. Not so much these days, but filling up more than 3 days a week got annoying!
But so many big bikes in the UK do very low mileage, how much does the CO2 matter?
I think the pressure will be on long before 2040, due to noise and pollution other than CO2.
Big bikes are becoming more and more pointless on UK roads very month, as ever more speed limits and cameras appear.
See the 142mph in Scotland thread.
The flip side of this is What e-MCs might be on offer?
I tried (and enjoyed) an e-bike recently (a motorbike one not a cycle one) but although it was great fun, the realistic range was about 40 miles. I also ordered a BMW electric scooter thing which had about the same, so cancelled my order.If economy/CO2 was key, then maybe a hybrid bike would be a thing?
Economy matters a bit to me, because of tank range. Not so much these days, but filling up more than 3 days a week got annoying!
But so many big bikes in the UK do very low mileage, how much does the CO2 matter?
I think the pressure will be on long before 2040, due to noise and pollution other than CO2.
Big bikes are becoming more and more pointless on UK roads very month, as ever more speed limits and cameras appear.
See the 142mph in Scotland thread.
The flip side of this is What e-MCs might be on offer?
Weight’s going to be a problem for a lot longer in bikes than it is in cars. My new R1300GS arrives next month. 237kg (plus me), 140bhp, and at 50mph about 180 miles between stops. I reckon we’re 30 years-plus away from an electric bike matching that.
OutInTheShed said:
The flip side of this is What e-MCs might be on offer?
They're already bettering some ICE bikes. The Stark-Varg MX / Enduro bikes are already 90bhp with your arms being the limiting factor of endurance. Every review I've seen is glowing when directly compared to whatever stroker the reviewer is used to.
srob said:
I read an interesting interview with Guy Martin where he reckons bike development has been massively hampered by a lack of emissions restrictions.
He says that if you look at the car world, where you struggle to buy a big cc NA car now, it's all been driven by chasing emissions and if the same had applied to bikes we'd all be riding round on smaller (lighter) forced induction bikes. I hadn't thought of it before, but I agree with him.
The bike industry has been caught napping - again. Chasing big bhp to sell bikes and not seen the changing tide. People want economy, as well as fun. Driving styles have changed, you only have to look at the average speeds people drive on dual carriageways now to see that. People are going slower to save fuel. If bikes were now running the 150mpg they surely could be, how many of those people would be commuting by motorbike? I would!
But, electric isn't the way - in my opinion.
It's a pet rant of mine, but if they want to change the world they have to give people reasonable alternatives. At the moment people default to their 2 ton SUV as a way of transporting one person. Most hate driving and find it stressful and expensive. But, unless you live in a city center you have no choice but to drive. My wife recently tried to commute into Cambridge by train. We live within a 20 min walk of the station but the trains were so unreliable she had to give up and go back to driving. She loved going by train but the economics only just made sense, and add into the equation she has to keep a car 'in case' the trains aren't running or are delayed and it made no sense.
I firmly believe that synthetic fuel will be the short term solution. Longer term, I think those who have the powers have to pull their big boy pants on and invest in an infrastructure away from the roads that supports 21stC living.
i agree with this, im lucky that i live in a city nr the centre and retired, so no commute, but public transport to get somewhere else is shocking, you just cant rely on it.He says that if you look at the car world, where you struggle to buy a big cc NA car now, it's all been driven by chasing emissions and if the same had applied to bikes we'd all be riding round on smaller (lighter) forced induction bikes. I hadn't thought of it before, but I agree with him.
The bike industry has been caught napping - again. Chasing big bhp to sell bikes and not seen the changing tide. People want economy, as well as fun. Driving styles have changed, you only have to look at the average speeds people drive on dual carriageways now to see that. People are going slower to save fuel. If bikes were now running the 150mpg they surely could be, how many of those people would be commuting by motorbike? I would!
But, electric isn't the way - in my opinion.
It's a pet rant of mine, but if they want to change the world they have to give people reasonable alternatives. At the moment people default to their 2 ton SUV as a way of transporting one person. Most hate driving and find it stressful and expensive. But, unless you live in a city center you have no choice but to drive. My wife recently tried to commute into Cambridge by train. We live within a 20 min walk of the station but the trains were so unreliable she had to give up and go back to driving. She loved going by train but the economics only just made sense, and add into the equation she has to keep a car 'in case' the trains aren't running or are delayed and it made no sense.
I firmly believe that synthetic fuel will be the short term solution. Longer term, I think those who have the powers have to pull their big boy pants on and invest in an infrastructure away from the roads that supports 21stC living.
Edited by srob on Tuesday 14th May 07:01
i dont drive now due to medical reasons, but would have a bike or car if i could.
the green thing has got out of hand tbh, and the push to electric has all but ignored many alternatives.
but the big issue for me is bad public transport.
srob said:
I read an interesting interview with Guy Martin where he reckons bike development has been massively hampered by a lack of emissions restrictions.
He says that if you look at the car world, where you struggle to buy a big cc NA car now, it's all been driven by chasing emissions and if the same had applied to bikes we'd all be riding round on smaller (lighter) forced induction bikes. I hadn't thought of it before, but I agree with him.
The bike industry has been caught napping - again. Chasing big bhp to sell bikes and not seen the changing tide. People want economy, as well as fun. Driving styles have changed, you only have to look at the average speeds people drive on dual carriageways now to see that. People are going slower to save fuel. If bikes were now running the 150mpg they surely could be, how many of those people would be commuting by motorbike? I would!
Missed this post, but I couldn't disagree more. I like to have the option to ride an excessively powerful bike. There are plenty of options to buy something economical if that's your thing. Honda NCs haven't set the market on fire, and if you want something economical you are probably going to sacrifice performance / involvement or a lot of money for the technology. He says that if you look at the car world, where you struggle to buy a big cc NA car now, it's all been driven by chasing emissions and if the same had applied to bikes we'd all be riding round on smaller (lighter) forced induction bikes. I hadn't thought of it before, but I agree with him.
The bike industry has been caught napping - again. Chasing big bhp to sell bikes and not seen the changing tide. People want economy, as well as fun. Driving styles have changed, you only have to look at the average speeds people drive on dual carriageways now to see that. People are going slower to save fuel. If bikes were now running the 150mpg they surely could be, how many of those people would be commuting by motorbike? I would!
Bit rich from Guy Martin. A bloke who has built his career on extracting as much performance out of a bike as possible while riding around in circles.
Though I suppose being a massive hypocrite is in fashion when it comes to the environment.
Donbot said:
Missed this post, but I couldn't disagree more. I like to have the option to ride an excessively powerful bike. There are plenty of options to buy something economical if that's your thing. Honda NCs haven't set the market on fire, and if you want something economical you are probably going to sacrifice performance / involvement or a lot of money for the technology.
Bit rich from Guy Martin. A bloke who has built his career on extracting as much performance out of a bike as possible while riding around in circles.
Though I suppose being a massive hypocrite is in fashion when it comes to the environment.
You missed the point massively Bit rich from Guy Martin. A bloke who has built his career on extracting as much performance out of a bike as possible while riding around in circles.
Though I suppose being a massive hypocrite is in fashion when it comes to the environment.
He isn’t saying bikes should be low powered he’s saying that they haven’t moved on because they haven’t had to. Their design has become lazy.
Nothing to do with having to use only low power.
srob said:
Donbot said:
Missed this post, but I couldn't disagree more. I like to have the option to ride an excessively powerful bike. There are plenty of options to buy something economical if that's your thing. Honda NCs haven't set the market on fire, and if you want something economical you are probably going to sacrifice performance / involvement or a lot of money for the technology.
Bit rich from Guy Martin. A bloke who has built his career on extracting as much performance out of a bike as possible while riding around in circles.
Though I suppose being a massive hypocrite is in fashion when it comes to the environment.
You missed the point massively Bit rich from Guy Martin. A bloke who has built his career on extracting as much performance out of a bike as possible while riding around in circles.
Though I suppose being a massive hypocrite is in fashion when it comes to the environment.
He isn’t saying bikes should be low powered he’s saying that they haven’t moved on because they haven’t had to. Their design has become lazy.
Nothing to do with having to use only low power.
Considering how much more performance you get from modern bikes you can hardly claim that the design has become lazy.
I guess we will see how well that new hybrid Kawasaki will sell if that is the sort of thing customers want.
Donbot said:
I don't think so. If the motorcycle industry was treated the same as the car industry bikes would have just got more boring and complicated just like cars have (IMO).
Considering how much more performance you get from modern bikes you can hardly claim that the design has become lazy.
I guess we will see how well that new hybrid Kawasaki will sell if that is the sort of thing customers want.
You get good performance without a doubt! But, they’re a DOHC inline four (or v-four, whatever) four stroke. Considering how much more performance you get from modern bikes you can hardly claim that the design has become lazy.
I guess we will see how well that new hybrid Kawasaki will sell if that is the sort of thing customers want.
In 1939 the FIM banned forced induction in bike sport as it was all getting a bit tasty. In came the DOHC inline four and here we are 85 years on.
Sometimes rules are good for making people think outside the box, other times rules force people to stay inside the box. Guy was talking about the former, I think.
Edited by srob on Tuesday 14th May 21:39
srob said:
You get good performance without a doubt! But, they’re a DOHC inline four (or v-four, whatever) four stroke.
In 1939 the FIM banned forced induction in bike sport as it was all getting a bit tasty. In came the DOHC inline four and here we are 85 years on.
Sometimes rules are good for making people think outside the box, other times rules force people to stay inside the box. Guy was talking about the former, I think.
But bikes have been made with turbos / superchargers and hardly anyone buys them.In 1939 the FIM banned forced induction in bike sport as it was all getting a bit tasty. In came the DOHC inline four and here we are 85 years on.
Sometimes rules are good for making people think outside the box, other times rules force people to stay inside the box. Guy was talking about the former, I think.
Beyond FI all you've really got left is batteries / hybrid and they've only just become viable for cars. The tech has a long way to go for it to make sense for bikes.
Donbot said:
Considering how much more performance you get from modern bikes you can hardly claim that the design has become lazy.
Look at the response to Euro5/5+ in the sportsbike realm. Manufacturers couldn't just throw a s
tload of valve overlap at engines to make big power any more so they either dropped models or just increased the capacity. Only BMW showed any real innvoation and came out with ShiftCam.2ndclasscitizen said:
Look at the response to Euro5/5+ in the sportsbike realm. Manufacturers couldn't just throw a stload of valve overlap at engines to make big power any more so they either dropped models or just increased the capacity. Only BMW showed any real innvoation and came out with ShiftCam.
Shiftcam's just VVT isn't it?tload of valve overlap at engines to make big power any more so they either dropped models or just increased the capacity. Only BMW showed any real innvoation and came out with ShiftCam.Models have been dropped because they are not selling. Even so, there are more bikes available now with big power than ever before. Dropping stuff because of emissions regs seems something of an excuse.
crofty1984 said:
I'll be 56 in 2040. Hopefully I can buy a bike then that will last me another 20 or so years, then I can die before I can't ride any more. At the moment my bikes are between brand new and 50 years old.
It's highly unlikely (one way or the other) that I'll still be riding bikes in 2040 but, if I am I certainly won't be looking for a new one so, as long as I can keep going as I am then that'll do for me.Quite happy with my trio of oldies for now, the feel and noise of the engine is a big part of bikes IMO so I can't imagine enjoying an electric motorbike especially, given the range and re-charging issues - my old (tax & MOT exempt) Guzzi will do 240 miles on a tank so I don't see 60 mile range and an hour or two charging time as progress.
Sad if ICE bikes get outlawed but as a miserable old fart it won't (hopefully) affect me...
My CB500X is relatively economical at a Fuelly calculated 83mpg. My CBF125 is managing 135mpg. Hard to beat that in any production car, added to the low mileage that bikes typically do and it's a wonder why the deadline is so short.
I wonder if biking will be more popular in future as people look for cheap methods of transport. People might not like getting cold and wet but if you head from site to site or need to visit multiple places while you're out then public transport isn't going to be plausible. Suddenly, a helmet and some water proofs sound a lot more enticing. It might even encourage people to (heaven forbid) walk somewhere. My neighbour drives to our local shop for bits multiple times per day. I can walk there, shop and get back from the same shop in 10 minutes. If you had to faff about getting a helmet on and the bike out from the covers and chains then you might think "sod it, I'll walk". That's even better for emissions.
I wonder if biking will be more popular in future as people look for cheap methods of transport. People might not like getting cold and wet but if you head from site to site or need to visit multiple places while you're out then public transport isn't going to be plausible. Suddenly, a helmet and some water proofs sound a lot more enticing. It might even encourage people to (heaven forbid) walk somewhere. My neighbour drives to our local shop for bits multiple times per day. I can walk there, shop and get back from the same shop in 10 minutes. If you had to faff about getting a helmet on and the bike out from the covers and chains then you might think "sod it, I'll walk". That's even better for emissions.
I currently commute on a BMW C-Evolution. It does 100 mile to a charge (85 in winter). Loads of weather protection and for the role plenty fast enough. Quick at the lights like most EV's It's basically run on half an i3 battery. In spite of what the manual says it goes to the service centre every 12k miles and even then I'm not sure what there is to service. You hardly even use the brakes as it's all on regen.
It really is the ideal tool for the job. Just twist and go. The fun comes from optimising your flow through traffic and surprising the odd sports bike between lights. But I do have a garage and plug it in every night to cover the 46 mile round trip. Trouble is new they were over £11k. The latest one seems to be the same price, has a smaller range and a bobber look which means it's lost all the fairing so less ideal for commuting. A really strange direction for BMW and I'm not sure why you'd buy one in the UK. Maybe down on the Med. Looks funky though.
I wouldn't dream of taking it out for a fun ride though. It'd be a short ride and quite frankly rather dull. It's just a very efficient mode of transport. Hence I've just bought my second S1000XR. I'm not a fan of all the pointless tech on the new one but that's modern bikes for you and I just ignore it. I discovered many years ago the do it all bike doesn't exist.
Battery powered motorcycles do and will have their place as efficient transport and I look forward to see how they develop as more manufacturers get in on the game. And I will be on the look out for a replacement once my existing scoot gets a bit old.
But if you ride for fun you need to be burning fuel, changing gears and have enough power to put a grin on inside that helmet. Matching gears and revs to ensure you're achieving peak power on the exit takes skill and practice. That's part of what makes it fun. Having to plan a ride around range or having all the torque all the time would just suck all the fun and satisfaction away. Petrol powered bikes talk to you and you have to work together to get the most from them. That's why we get attached to them. You just don't get that from an EV. They're boring machines. I just don't get why anyone would want an electric sports car either. Whats the point when 90% of the fun/ challenge is removed.
I'll be getting close to too old in 2040 anyway.
It really is the ideal tool for the job. Just twist and go. The fun comes from optimising your flow through traffic and surprising the odd sports bike between lights. But I do have a garage and plug it in every night to cover the 46 mile round trip. Trouble is new they were over £11k. The latest one seems to be the same price, has a smaller range and a bobber look which means it's lost all the fairing so less ideal for commuting. A really strange direction for BMW and I'm not sure why you'd buy one in the UK. Maybe down on the Med. Looks funky though.
I wouldn't dream of taking it out for a fun ride though. It'd be a short ride and quite frankly rather dull. It's just a very efficient mode of transport. Hence I've just bought my second S1000XR. I'm not a fan of all the pointless tech on the new one but that's modern bikes for you and I just ignore it. I discovered many years ago the do it all bike doesn't exist.
Battery powered motorcycles do and will have their place as efficient transport and I look forward to see how they develop as more manufacturers get in on the game. And I will be on the look out for a replacement once my existing scoot gets a bit old.
But if you ride for fun you need to be burning fuel, changing gears and have enough power to put a grin on inside that helmet. Matching gears and revs to ensure you're achieving peak power on the exit takes skill and practice. That's part of what makes it fun. Having to plan a ride around range or having all the torque all the time would just suck all the fun and satisfaction away. Petrol powered bikes talk to you and you have to work together to get the most from them. That's why we get attached to them. You just don't get that from an EV. They're boring machines. I just don't get why anyone would want an electric sports car either. Whats the point when 90% of the fun/ challenge is removed.
I'll be getting close to too old in 2040 anyway.
Edited by Harry H on Wednesday 15th May 11:41
I bet you the value of a shinny new heat pump, that I'll not be buying for my house in 2040 that this wont happen.
It's taken a decade for the government up here to dual 11 miles of an A-road, I think I'll be safe with them mandating that manufactures have to completely redesign their range of bikes to sell them in the UK, whilst upgrading the charging infrastructure from the square root of fk all, to bustling charging stations on every street corner. Oh, whilst upgrading our ageing and depleted power sector to cope with this sudden demand. That's before you get into the mining problems you'd experience making absolutely everything electric. It'll never fking happen.
It's taken a decade for the government up here to dual 11 miles of an A-road, I think I'll be safe with them mandating that manufactures have to completely redesign their range of bikes to sell them in the UK, whilst upgrading the charging infrastructure from the square root of f
k all, to bustling charging stations on every street corner. Oh, whilst upgrading our ageing and depleted power sector to cope with this sudden demand. That's before you get into the mining problems you'd experience making absolutely everything electric. It'll never fking happen. At the risk of sounding out of the loop, I'm not quite understanding what's going on here. Presumably this is linked to the "climate emergency" that every politician is declaring recently. If so, could PH enlighten me on what the nature of said emergency, where I can see evidence of it with my own eyes, and what effect banning petrol motorbikes in the UK will have on it? None of the articles I've Googled about this subject explain the above. Thanks.
modellista said:
At the risk of sounding out of the loop, I'm not quite understanding what's going on here. Presumably this is linked to the "climate emergency" that every politician is declaring recently. If so, could PH enlighten me on what the nature of said emergency, where I can see evidence of it with my own eyes, and what effect banning petrol motorbikes in the UK will have on it? None of the articles I've Googled about this subject explain the above. Thanks.
Weird post! It isn't PH that's suggesting this ban...Gassing Station | Biker Banter | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff