Discussion
OK one for the experienced riders here. I'm still a beginner but have a habit of trying to learn *very* fast... anyway went out on my favourite local road (A264 between East Grinstead and Langton Green) because of all the corners and gradients, and ended up behind a couple of lads in a Honda S2000. As the road cleared, they went for it in a big way, and for the first time I was having to keep the bike between 8 and 13k revs just to keep up on the straights. I'm sure the bike could have got past easily but they'd be right on my arse in the corners so I thought I'd follow and see whether I could corner a bike like I can corner a car (I'm pretty good in a car)...
Anyway the S2000 went into bends without braking at all and I had to bottle slightly, countersteered as much as I could dare and leant the bike right over in all the bends. I *just* kept him in sight until he got stuck behind traffic. So one lesson learned - a quick car with someone who knows how to drive is faster on a tight twisty road than a bike with a muppet beginner rider on it
However in a lot of the corners I felt the bike 'squirming' - just like my Runner 180 scooter used to when pushed too hard. The issue with the scooter was a design thing - the scooter was two halves separated by a bush, and that bush was weak, letting lateral movement between the two ends of the scooter. However there's no way a CBR600 would have that problem.
So is the squirming just poor technique on my part (most likely), or could it be due to the bike being worn out (it's a '98 CBR600F with 60k miles on the clock, been used as a commuter, full service history but I guess some components are tired - also it has different tyres front and rear, but both are round and not squared off, plenty of tread, chicken strips today down to 1cm on front and 2cm on back...)???
If the squirming is poor technique on my part, what am I doing wrong? I tried not to ride 'red-mist' style, but position on the road correctly for the bends, think two bends ahead (you have to on the A264) and attempt to force countersteering when brain-panic tries to go the other way.
To test whether it was a one-off, on the way back home I went up Riverhill Bend (anyone from around Sevenoaks area will know that bend) as fast as I dared, it's a triple apex jobby uphill with a fast right, a tightening left, a surface change mid corner, and an opening right with a junction on the right of the road afterwards (lethal... and a silly bend to performance test anything, but it's such a rush...) - and I suppose I could have dragged my knee on the ground on the second bend (uphill) but I was wearing jeans and was trying to lean the bike, not hang off it. The bike was weaving under me like my old scooter.
So it's repeatable.
Any ideas? Apologies for the manicness of this email but that ride was such an adrenalin rush that I'm buzzing like a fridge and feel as high as a kite... absolutely awesome, even for a beginner like me that was immense fun...
Anyway the S2000 went into bends without braking at all and I had to bottle slightly, countersteered as much as I could dare and leant the bike right over in all the bends. I *just* kept him in sight until he got stuck behind traffic. So one lesson learned - a quick car with someone who knows how to drive is faster on a tight twisty road than a bike with a muppet beginner rider on it
However in a lot of the corners I felt the bike 'squirming' - just like my Runner 180 scooter used to when pushed too hard. The issue with the scooter was a design thing - the scooter was two halves separated by a bush, and that bush was weak, letting lateral movement between the two ends of the scooter. However there's no way a CBR600 would have that problem.
So is the squirming just poor technique on my part (most likely), or could it be due to the bike being worn out (it's a '98 CBR600F with 60k miles on the clock, been used as a commuter, full service history but I guess some components are tired - also it has different tyres front and rear, but both are round and not squared off, plenty of tread, chicken strips today down to 1cm on front and 2cm on back...)???
If the squirming is poor technique on my part, what am I doing wrong? I tried not to ride 'red-mist' style, but position on the road correctly for the bends, think two bends ahead (you have to on the A264) and attempt to force countersteering when brain-panic tries to go the other way.
To test whether it was a one-off, on the way back home I went up Riverhill Bend (anyone from around Sevenoaks area will know that bend) as fast as I dared, it's a triple apex jobby uphill with a fast right, a tightening left, a surface change mid corner, and an opening right with a junction on the right of the road afterwards (lethal... and a silly bend to performance test anything, but it's such a rush...) - and I suppose I could have dragged my knee on the ground on the second bend (uphill) but I was wearing jeans and was trying to lean the bike, not hang off it. The bike was weaving under me like my old scooter.
So it's repeatable.
Any ideas? Apologies for the manicness of this email but that ride was such an adrenalin rush that I'm buzzing like a fridge and feel as high as a kite... absolutely awesome, even for a beginner like me that was immense fun...
Twit said:
However, it could just be, and this isnt meant patronisingly, that you are trying too hard to go to fast to soon. Take your time a bit to get used the the bike and how it works in different situations, then you will know what it should feel like in different situations. You certainly don't want to be getting into situations where you are going to quick for capabilities - in a car you may well get away with it, on a bike you may not!
Not taken patronisingly at all - you're 100% correct. I'm not a kid any more and deliberately have been working my way up slowly, getting to know the bike to the point where it doesn't feel like a heavy machine that I'm forcing around, but more like it's not even there (so to speak). This is perhaps the first run where I've had to try to keep up with a car... and yes I used it as an excuse to lean the bike more, to try to carry more speed in corners, and to extend my experience, rather than just pootle around at the same speed all the time. Also I absolutely *love* that road 
You're probably right, I was probably riding just over the limits of my capability in some places, but in others I was clearly not (when I was planning corners ahead and thinking about road positioning, I was *not* balls-out manic)... and at no point did I run out of road and have to anchor down. It was all about corner speed (since that's what's exciting to me, not straight-line speed, which all bikes do pretty well). I was deliberately trying to use as little brake as possible, and to go fast in the corners. Perhaps that *is* 'too fast too soon', but the fact that a car got away from me suggests that I wasn't riding 'fast' at all
Perhaps this is one of those runs where I *am* learning what the bike does in certain situations, like harder-than-average cornering - and was wondering whether it's just poor technique and my limit, or the limits of the bike. I have 4+ years of daily 2-wheel riding experience under my belt but it was all scooters (100 mph ones, mind you) - I'm focusing on learning what a proper bike can do. I like to think I've already got the hazard awareness, the defensive riding, road positioning and surface awareness hammered into my brain
First thing to check is the tyre pressures, I think. Unfortunately I have no garage and no hardstanding or anywhere else to work on the bike, so all the other stuff will require a trip to my local bike mechanic...
surfsofa said:
I was lucky enough to own an Elise for several years. There's no question in my mind that a decent RWD sports car like that or the S2000 can comfortably hold their own against bikers because, erm, I generally did. Four wheels makes one helluva difference on the twisties and you don't have to worry about manhole covers, gravel, tar banding etc. on the apexes of every bend. Straight line is a different story of course.
Yup, only very well ridden litre sports could get anywhere near me in my tuned VX220 turbo on that road... didn't realise the S2000 was as quick as an Elise-based car though... though it's got one hell of an engine!StevRS said:
Ride at your own pace, not someone else's.
You carry on doing tricks like that & you'll end up dead.
Reasons for squirming: Riding way beyond your own limits.
Slow down!
Sorry, the race face came out of nowhere You carry on doing tricks like that & you'll end up dead.
Reasons for squirming: Riding way beyond your own limits.
Slow down!
I've been bloody responsible with the bike since I bought it a few months ago. It's just *that* road, and the speed I used to carry in cars like VX220 turbo, Noble, supercharged 993, etc... I thought I'd left the red mist generator in the footwell of the VXT but there appears to be one on the bike as well
I think I need some more training, I'm not in this for heroic scars or death wishes, just the thrill. And this is the first time I've got off the bike buzzing like crazy. And yes, I know it's wrong on the road, but on this particular road, you don't need to go more than 70 mph to still be on the ragged edge in most machinery (I guess stuff with downforce would breeze it).
So you reckon if I was a better rider, I could corner the same bike faster with no squirming? What do you suggest I do to my technique? I'm a listener and a learner - if someone can explain something to me that I understand then I'll remember it and put it into practice. I know I'm no riding God, and don't pretend to be. Until I'm confident in the fast group at trackdays I'll be considering myself a 'beginner' just as I did with cars (though my 16/17-20 yr old antics were probably more to do with luck than skill).
catso said:
RizzoTheRat said:
Squared rear tyre - you've already crossed that one off
Front tyre worn? mine is worn into a bit of a 'V' profile and it definitely feels a bit 'squirmy' under certain conditions.note to self, must get new tyres......
Then it's time for extra training. I used Kent & Sussex for my test ages ago, but I've heard mention of excellent value-for-money riding days organised by the cops, who are the best trained road riders out there - what is generally considered the best training to have for enjoying a bike on twisty roads? Track riding will come later.
RizzoTheRat said:
Bikesafe is the one run by the cops. Other good options are the IAM and RoSPA. Google will turn up websites for all 3. There alre also track based training days that focus on road skills not track racing.
Cheers Rizzo. Anyone here know about Bikesafe near or around NW Kent? Are weekends possible, or is it just weekdays? I'll google this stuff, but if anyone here has direct experience of doing these courses in my area then I'd love to hear your opinions.Right - now I've calmed down a bit
Basically the S2000 bombed off and that kicked off the competitive instinct - but I was also intellectually wanting to practice cornering 'properly' having read up on lines, countersteering, weight transfer etc. I've got a fair amount of experience driving cars quickly but bike experience was limited to a year with a Ducati Monster that I never cornered hard, and 4 years commuting on a sequence of Gilera 180 two-stroke scooters that I tuned up (and then got stolen) - I pushed those things well onto their (low) limits round bends but gave up once the thieving pikeys beat my resolve (after 3 bikes stolen, I simply couldn't afford to keep buying them bikes).
What I *wasn't* doing was riding like a nutter - i.e. not thinking about what I was doing, just max throttle everywhere and scaring myself round every bend - at no point did I scare myself. In fact, because the whole point of riding that road was to practice (and hopefully improve) my cornering, having someone going faster than me to follow was an opportunity to push it a bit and learn more. I expected any sports 600 to be able to keep up with an S2000, certainly I could only compete with bikes in machines like modded VXTs and the Noble.
On each corner I was planning, positioning, and thinking about what I was meant to be doing - yes it was enormously exciting (as the schoolboy babble yesterday indicated) but I was NOT brain-out racing. As the car pulled away through the corners I didn't try to match his entry speed (or I would have stacked) - I just tried to push that little bit harder than last time, to go in a bit faster, to hold on to a lower gear and not keep in my 'comfort zone' of 3-8k revs, to lean the bike more (no hanging off antics, I wanted to feel what the bike would do, not confuse matters by shifting my weight around, not that there's much weight of me! ), and to feel the difference between powering through the bend, cornering on a neutral throttle and the odd 'oops' cornering off the throttle.
As a result I reckon I learnt a LOT about how the bike behaves, it doesn't like going into bends off the throttle or changing throttle position mid-corner, it feels best slow-in, fast-out (as mentioned above), and surprisingly the bike now feels a bit more 'flickable' - using countersteer deliberately (rather than subconsciously, like I was riding before) the S-bends were a lot easier and the bike clearly has a lot more ability than me.
Yes, I was a little bit out of my comfort zone but that's the only way to learn, I guess
The weaving occurred a couple of times on the A264 (where the impromptu chase took place). After the excitement had worn down a bit, having had to bumble through Langton Green, Tunbridge Wells, then filter through an enormous traffic jam in Southborough and head home, I had a think about it, and tried River Hill with a cool head, going in at a reasonable pace and accelerating through the bend. The squirming happened again, more or less in the middle of the bend. I was smoothly applying power from just before that point - this was with a cool (ish) head, nobody to chase, just me, *thinking* and trying to analyze what was going on. I wasn't going particularly fast, I was reasonably sure that I wasn't going to fall off, and I know that bend and its surface changes, camber and tightening line very well. Unlike the bit on the A264 where I was probably trying a bit too hard, this was a lot more controlled.
Now from comments about 'chicken strips' and people getting their knees on the ground, etc., I presume that the CBR600 should be able to lean over to the edges of the tyres safely, but I'm assuming that once the bike feels squirmy and weavy, that's the limit and I shouldn't push any harder, right? Looking at the tyres after the ride, it's clear that I *hadn't* gone to the edges of the tyres. Am I right in assuming that once the bike feels loose that you *don't* push harder, or if I was a better rider could I carry more lean angle without getting the squirm?
Surfsofa - cheers for the link, just what I was looking for. Will read through all their tips and advice and look into booking a day.
Gareth H - California superbike school sounds like fun but the price is out of my league, and I'd expect you'd need to already be comfortable with a bike on track before bimbling around like an idiot Much as it sounds like great tuition, I can't justify the cost and I'm primarily looking to enjoy my bike on the road.
As I said earlier, the bends on the A264 can be enjoyed well below the speed limit, I'm not bothered about high speed, just the bends Track riding is a different kettle of fish to road riding, surely? Equally I'm not looking to push my bike to the limits on every corner on the road, as you're so much more vulnerable on a bike that one mistake can kill or permanently disable you. I was just wondering whether the squirm I felt was me getting near the limits of the bike (due to its age and amount of wear in the suspension) or whether it was simply because I still class myself as a beginner and my skills are not up to scratch (which I freely admit, even though I have good balance, and good skill on road and track in a car). I always over-analyse everything - perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I'm a perfectionist and having found that biking is bloody good fun, I want to be safe!!!
Basically the S2000 bombed off and that kicked off the competitive instinct - but I was also intellectually wanting to practice cornering 'properly' having read up on lines, countersteering, weight transfer etc. I've got a fair amount of experience driving cars quickly but bike experience was limited to a year with a Ducati Monster that I never cornered hard, and 4 years commuting on a sequence of Gilera 180 two-stroke scooters that I tuned up (and then got stolen) - I pushed those things well onto their (low) limits round bends but gave up once the thieving pikeys beat my resolve (after 3 bikes stolen, I simply couldn't afford to keep buying them bikes).
What I *wasn't* doing was riding like a nutter - i.e. not thinking about what I was doing, just max throttle everywhere and scaring myself round every bend - at no point did I scare myself. In fact, because the whole point of riding that road was to practice (and hopefully improve) my cornering, having someone going faster than me to follow was an opportunity to push it a bit and learn more. I expected any sports 600 to be able to keep up with an S2000, certainly I could only compete with bikes in machines like modded VXTs and the Noble.
On each corner I was planning, positioning, and thinking about what I was meant to be doing - yes it was enormously exciting (as the schoolboy babble yesterday indicated) but I was NOT brain-out racing. As the car pulled away through the corners I didn't try to match his entry speed (or I would have stacked) - I just tried to push that little bit harder than last time, to go in a bit faster, to hold on to a lower gear and not keep in my 'comfort zone' of 3-8k revs, to lean the bike more (no hanging off antics, I wanted to feel what the bike would do, not confuse matters by shifting my weight around, not that there's much weight of me!
), and to feel the difference between powering through the bend, cornering on a neutral throttle and the odd 'oops' cornering off the throttle.As a result I reckon I learnt a LOT about how the bike behaves, it doesn't like going into bends off the throttle or changing throttle position mid-corner, it feels best slow-in, fast-out (as mentioned above), and surprisingly the bike now feels a bit more 'flickable' - using countersteer deliberately (rather than subconsciously, like I was riding before) the S-bends were a lot easier and the bike clearly has a lot more ability than me.
Yes, I was a little bit out of my comfort zone but that's the only way to learn, I guess
The weaving occurred a couple of times on the A264 (where the impromptu chase took place). After the excitement had worn down a bit, having had to bumble through Langton Green, Tunbridge Wells, then filter through an enormous traffic jam in Southborough and head home, I had a think about it, and tried River Hill with a cool head, going in at a reasonable pace and accelerating through the bend. The squirming happened again, more or less in the middle of the bend. I was smoothly applying power from just before that point - this was with a cool (ish) head, nobody to chase, just me, *thinking* and trying to analyze what was going on. I wasn't going particularly fast, I was reasonably sure that I wasn't going to fall off, and I know that bend and its surface changes, camber and tightening line very well. Unlike the bit on the A264 where I was probably trying a bit too hard, this was a lot more controlled.
Now from comments about 'chicken strips' and people getting their knees on the ground, etc., I presume that the CBR600 should be able to lean over to the edges of the tyres safely, but I'm assuming that once the bike feels squirmy and weavy, that's the limit and I shouldn't push any harder, right? Looking at the tyres after the ride, it's clear that I *hadn't* gone to the edges of the tyres. Am I right in assuming that once the bike feels loose that you *don't* push harder, or if I was a better rider could I carry more lean angle without getting the squirm?
Surfsofa - cheers for the link, just what I was looking for. Will read through all their tips and advice and look into booking a day.
Gareth H - California superbike school sounds like fun but the price is out of my league, and I'd expect you'd need to already be comfortable with a bike on track before bimbling around like an idiot
Much as it sounds like great tuition, I can't justify the cost and I'm primarily looking to enjoy my bike on the road.As I said earlier, the bends on the A264 can be enjoyed well below the speed limit, I'm not bothered about high speed, just the bends
Track riding is a different kettle of fish to road riding, surely? Equally I'm not looking to push my bike to the limits on every corner on the road, as you're so much more vulnerable on a bike that one mistake can kill or permanently disable you. I was just wondering whether the squirm I felt was me getting near the limits of the bike (due to its age and amount of wear in the suspension) or whether it was simply because I still class myself as a beginner and my skills are not up to scratch (which I freely admit, even though I have good balance, and good skill on road and track in a car). I always over-analyse everything - perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I'm a perfectionist and having found that biking is bloody good fun, I want to be safe!!!RizzoTheRat said:
Does sound like suspension. Could be old and tired or could just need setting up for your weight, this is a usefull guide to getting it more or less right.
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSusp...
Cheers - given that I basically bought the bike from the shop and have ridden it without adjusting anything, it could have random suspension settings for all I know. Learning all the time!!! http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/Guides/motorcycleSusp...
outlaw biker said:
Cyberface, you're going to end up dead in a short space of time. On an ageing bike, with limited riding experience racing against well driven sportscars on twisty roads? Ummm....seriously, not very bright!
OK, then I've got two choices haven't I - go back to well driven sportcars (which cost more to run and insure, and only give you that *extreme* rush at silly speeds), or actually try to get good at this biking lark that doesn't involve me ending 'up dead in a short space of time'.I can't remember the last time *anyone* has called me 'not very bright' and whilst this isn't meant arrogantly, I do actually think and analyse everything I do...
Part of me is saying 'sod it, get a new CBR600 and eliminate all the potential maintenance factors that could be causing odd behaviour'. But I don't know if this behaviour is normal or abnormal - it just feels odd.
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
Yes I'm a weirdo, but that blast when I was positively controlling the bike (rather than gently coaxing it around) - I felt the least likely to fall off since I bought it.
Biker's Nemesis said:
cyberface said:
Part of it is also wanting to experience both sides - I've been the souped up VXT and the Noble that infuriated bikers wanting get past on the straights but couldn't keep up round bends. I'd like to see it from the other side - the biker with the high power-to-weight ratio against the car with the large contact patch and more flexible suspension.
It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
That's a fair viewpoint.It's my nature - analytical by trade as well - I'm not 'racing' for bravado, just to see what it's like...
What you should do is try this theory out at a TD in relative safety.
I have a feeling I'll pick up techniques on track that I'd have to forget for road, since I've come a cropper before taking racing lines on the road for visibility. But every bit of training helps. I'll definitely do the BikeSafe day first as it's cheap and run by full-on professionals.
Hooli said:
just thought of another one, has anyone said put some fork oil in it? at 60k i'd expect the forks to be empty or just full of water. its pointless sodding about with the adjusters till the forks have proper oil in.
It has a full service history, and was serviced before I bought it. I guess it's an assumption to think that the service would have kept the bike in good shape, perhaps I should take it to the local bike mechanics to specifically refurb the suspension front and rear.Alternatively, since the old bike was a 'toe in the water' and I'm absolutely loving it, I may just wait until next spring and buy a brand new CBR600, and not worry about worn out components. Unfortunately I don't have a garage or parking space so can't do my own maintenance... and since the bike cost well less than two grand, I'm not desperate to spend £500 on labour servicing the thing when I can get a brand new one for £7k. Think a newer bike may be on the cards next year
Momentofmadness said:
cyberface said:
California superbike school sounds like fun but the price is out of my league
cyberface said:
I'm not desperate to spend £500 on labour servicing the thing when I can get a brand new one for £7k. Think a newer bike may be on the cards next year
Go here and spend a couple of hundred on a new shock and new fork springs http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/main1st.htm and get some training.
Having had three track days days (evenings!) at Cadwell on my 70,000 mark 1 CBR600 on touring tyres, I was surprised just how capable it was
Just done some research. I read about Keith Code and the California Superbike School 10 years ago when it was being run in, obviously, California.
Didn't know that it had become a global organisation with training across the world, and that I could do the same training 10 miles from my front door at my favourite circuit
I thought I'd have to go to California which, including cost of time off work, would be financially prohibitive...What a muppet I am sometimes.
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