Monday 12th November 2012

PH2: MotoGP Spain

A chaotic end to the 2012 MotoGP season as the rain falls in Spain

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A wet Spanish finale saw almost the same number of riders starting from the pit lane as the grid in a crazy MotoGP race.

You have to love wet races as the CRT bike (Claiming Rule Team) of Aleix Espargaro led the pack with a whole stack of factory bikes behind. It was good while it lasted and after a glory lap Andrea Dovizioso restored order for the MotoGP bikes...

Stoner prepares for his last MotoGP race

Despite the wet it soon became apparent that slicks were the way forwards as Jorge Lorenzo eased through to second and then first place as anyone on wets dived for the pits in some chaotic scenes. But hang on a second, who is that in third? Yamaha test rider Katsuyuki Nakasuga, filling in for Ben Spies. Who saw that coming?

After starting from the pit lane to swap for slicks, Dani Pedrosa and Cal Crutchlow made fast process through the field with Dani in the hunt for Lorenzo in second and Cal tagging on to Nakasuga and Stefan Bradl in a battle for third. Well, until the German hit the deck...

At the front the two Spaniards broke clear in what has been the story of the 2012 season, but unluckily for Lorenzo, Dani looked on fire. More ifs and buts, but what a race this would have been if the title was up for grabs. A mistake mid-race by Dani gave Jorge a bit of breathing space, but in trying to overtake James Ellison, Jorge hit the eject button in spectacular (and very angry) fashion. Anyone want a cheap M1 - only one careful owner...

Pedrosa soaks up the glory after a hard season

Lorenzo out and Cal was up into second place - could he hang on for 16 laps? Unfortunately not, seven to go and Cal got caught out at turn 13. On the bright side for Yamaha, that put Nakasuga in second place! And that's how it finished. Dani took a predictable win, Nakasuga an unlikely second and Stoner bowed out of MotoGP with a podium. Not a bad result.

The 2013 season starts on Tuesday with testing at Valencia. Rossi back on a Yamaha, Dovi on the Ducati, Stoner fishing in Australia and two Brits in MotoGP. PH2 can't wait for the fireworks to start. Anyone want to bet against Rossi taking a win in 2013?

A cracking Moto2 race was won by Marquez after starting dead last while Moto3 honors were taken by Brit Danny Kent. Two victories in the 2012 season for the young Brit promises much for 2013.

[stoocake]

Watching Marc Marquez start from the back of the pack and relentlessly make his way into first place was amazing. Aggressive, but great riding.

[rtz62]

That silver-haired poisonous squinting dwarf Ecclestone ought to watch Moto GP to see why F1 is so far behind in terms of thrills, connection with the fans etc.

[y2blade]

It looks like Moto3 has proven to be a worthy successor to old 125 2strokes
Moto3 Consistently produced the best race of each round.


Good to see Casey bowing out on the podium...."Gone Fishing"
Great ride by Dani

AMAZING ride by Nagasuga


bad luck Cal.

[Fraz.K]

rtz62 said:

That silver-haired poisonous squinting dwarf Ecclestone ought to watch Moto GP to see why F1 is so far behind in terms of thrills, connection with the fans etc.

You joking?! Thats why GP is going to be copying F1 in lots of ways to try replicate the good racing there having this year!

[MrKipling43]

rtz62 said:

That silver-haired poisonous squinting dwarf Ecclestone ought to watch Moto GP to see why F1 is so far behind in terms of thrills, connection with the fans etc.

That's hilarious.

[SPS]

F1 is now sadly bugger all except a massive brand placement platform which like so many other "sports" is all about MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I will concede that there is now some racing going on - in fact more than for many years. But when you compare the action to GP,SBK and BSB it's not in the same league.
Now GP is the same to a degree and getting more like F1 every season - except they bloody race without all of the crazy strategies going on with pit lane "overtaking" (from the mouth of silver shrimp himself who stated that spectators loved to see this "event") mathematical potentials and technologies that will never see the light of day in a standard production car and thats another discussion eh! Yes I know about the past where some aerodynamics and software applications, Carbon fibre brake systems etc (oh how affordable they have become - not) have been applied to the commercial sector but to be honest it's now minimal as the cost as so prohibitive unless you are looking at the hyper-car market. Give me real racing anytime - mind you F1 may be forced back to Earth soon as the costs are reducing the number of teams who will be able or want to afford the huge investment - same goes for GP as the field is now so small.;)

[srob]

I was actually thinking the other day whether MotoGP needed 'a Bernie'.

I don't mean his dubious ideas about removing the European rounds and stuff, but for all his faults he knows how to put on a show. There's still a queue to get into F1 (I think?) and with failing grid numbers in the prototype class of MotoGP races, I wonder if it needs a driven figure head (although I'm sure I've heard Bernie called a something else head ) to pull it back up.

F1 racing will never be as 'good' as MotoGP when it comes to overtaking and things again (in my opinion!) as the aerodynamics make it so hard to pass, so it's become more and more of a team strategy game, which is still interesting and exciting. F1 has to be the fastest four wheeled lap times, so they can't halt development and let LMP (etc) cars take over, so I suspect that there's a bit of a gap for MotoGP to steal some fans of real, elbow to elbow, five passes for the lead in a lap racing fans.

Just Monday ramblings probably!

Good article, by the way

[MrKipling43]

SPS said:

F1 is now sadly bugger all except a massive brand placement platform which like so many other "sports" is all about MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I will concede that there is now some racing going on - in fact more than for many years.

There's always racing going on... it's a racing series. That's what they're there for. Yes, on track overtaking was sadly absent pre-Pirelli, but I suspect there's been less on-track overtaking in this whole MotoGP season than there was at the Abu Dhabi round of F1 last week.

SPS said:

But when you compare the action to GP,SBK and BSB it's not in the same league.

SBK and BSB, yeah it's a lot more spicy, but not GP. That's just been a battle for first and second between two riders all year. Pretty dull by all accounts.

SPS said:

Now GP is the same to a degree and getting more like F1 every season - except they bloody race without all of the crazy strategies going on with pit lane "overtaking" (from the mouth of silver shrimp himself who stated that spectators loved to see this "event")

MotoGP's problem is that it's not getting more and more like F1. It's getting less and less like F1. You don't have chassis and engine manufacturers anymore (well, apart from in CRT), you have three motorcycle manufacturers building bikes. F1 learned the hard way that's not sustainable.

MotoGP also insists on carrying on with these stupid electronics when BSB and Formmula One have both seen fantastic improvements in racing excitement by banning it, with no real increase in the number of offs.

Also, your contention that MotoGP isn't hamstrung by strategy is just plain wrong. Tyres wear and fuel useage is a huge concern during the race. You've seen races where a ride who is plainy faster than the guy in front has toured until the last few laps. MotoGP is not the race-long battle to be in first that it once was...

SPS said:

mathematical potentials and technologies that will never see the light of day in a standard production car and thats another discussion eh! Yes I know about the past where some aerodynamics and software applications, Carbon fibre brake systems etc (oh how affordable they have become - not) have been applied to the commercial sector but to be honest it's now minimal as the cost as so prohibitive unless you are looking at the hyper-car market.

At least the carbon brakes 'from' Formula One make it on to road cars. Where are the carbon brakes from a MotoGP machine on the road?

MotoGP is just as irrelevant as Formula One when it comes to 'trickle down' technology, it just looks like there's more because a road bike looks a lot more like a MotoGP machine (mmmm, brand engineering) than a road car does an F1.

SPS said:

Give me real racing anytime - mind you F1 may be forced back to Earth soon as the costs are reducing the number of teams who will be able or want to afford the huge investment - same goes for GP as the field is now so small.;)

I don't know what you're basing this on. Formula One has now got 24 cars in the field since HRT, Marussia and Caterham joined and, generally speaking, is in pretty rude financial health. The grid is full, so I don't know what is making you think that the 'costs are reducing the number of teams who will be able or want to afford the huge investment'? If you'd been writing this in 2002 then you'd probably be right, but it's 2012. So you're not.

[RemaL]

was the best race of the year. hoping the next season is as good as the last race.

[BBS-LM]

I don't really watch MotoGP mush, but when did the sport become boring, if I remember right, MotoGP was guarantied close fast racing. The last couple of races I watched where terrible, even the commentators sounded fed up.

[MrKipling43]

BBS-LM said:

I don't really watch MotoGP mush, but when did the sport become boring, if I remember right, MotoGP was guarantied close fast racing. The last couple of races I watched where terrible, even the commentators sounded fed up.

09/10 ish, I think.

[thejudderman]

Thought it was a bit crappy how they didn't give Nakasuga a chance to speak at the post race interviews... The Test rider manages to finish second and they let Dani waffle on for an eternity and gave retiring Stoner a chance as well, but nothing for him.

Couldn't care less if he only said thank you to Yamaha in Japanese, he should have had his moment.

Everything else about the weekend racing was brilliant (we'll ignore Cal making a hash of a secure position)

[MrKipling43]

He was interviewed on the Beeb.

[SPS]

MrKipling43 said:

I don't know what you're basing this on. Formula One has now got 24 cars in the field since HRT, Marussia and Caterham joined and, generally speaking, is in pretty rude financial health. The grid is full, so I don't know what is making you think that the 'costs are reducing the number of teams who will be able or want to afford the huge investment'? If you'd been writing this in 2002 then you'd probably be right, but it's 2012. So you're not.

I agree to a large extent re just GP however I'm including moto 2 and 3 and there is still some great racing there now.
Re carbon fibre brakes making it onto road cars! - no not really they are track day toys that happen to be road legal. By the way at Oulton last year a guy with the whole carbon make over for his breaks was astounded when one of them actually disintegrated on him after only 10 laps on an open track day - said they cost him an absolute fortune as well! Got rid and went back to steel plus got his money back for the carbons!
Re F1 growing and waiting lists - see what happens when an engine manufacturer decides it's had enough of the black hole that comes with F1. The main reason that there is now overtaking is because they have had to introduce more tricks that allows cars to gain temporary boosts to BHP or takes even more advantage of the slipstream effect!!
However it has over the past two seasons made it more competitive - just!

[garypotter]

F1 cannot be compared to MotoGP surely, F1 with its false overatking, mickey mouse tyres that last 2 laps, drivers running at 85% as they need to look after them,has this really been a great year for F1 - not for me.

sorry rant over

[MrKipling43]

SPS said:

I agree to a large extent re just GP however I'm including moto 2 and 3 and there is still some great racing there now.

I don't think that's really fair - unless you're including GP3 and GP2 in with F1, then your whole argument falls apart!

SPS said:

Re carbon fibre brakes making it onto road cars! - no not really they are track day toys that happen to be road legal. By the way at Oulton last year a guy with the whole carbon make over for his breaks was astounded when one of them actually disintegrated on him after only 10 laps on an open track day - said they cost him an absolute fortune as well! Got rid and went back to steel plus got his money back for the carbons!

Here are a few road cars with carbon brakes (as option or standard fit):

E63 AMG
CLS63 AMG
Audi RS6
Ferrari FF
Porsche 911 Turbo
Porsche Panamera

Er, not really 'track toys that happen to be road legal'. In fact, most 'track toys that happen to be road legal' still use ferrous discs. Radical, Caterham, Westfield - all steel.

As for the chap with the carbon discs disintegrating, that was probably his fault rather than the discs. I imagine he was making a pretty common mistake of people going from steel to carbon on the track. With a steel disc you 'squeeze', with a carbon disc you 'stamp' - the warming of the disc does the 'squeeze' phase for you. He probably also wasn't braking late enough, so was spending too much time on the brakes and cooked them.

SPS said:

Re F1 growing and waiting lists - see what happens when an engine manufacturer decides it's had enough of the black hole that comes with F1.

If F1 was a black hole for engine manufacturers, there wouldn't be any. It's as simple as that. In fact, there's a good chance that we'll see one more engine supplier in 2014 than we have now, in Honda. Unless Cosworth drop out, in which case, we'll have the same number DESPITE one supplier leaving.

SPS said:

The main reason that there is now overtaking is because they have had to introduce more tricks that allows cars to gain temporary boosts to BHP or takes even more advantage of the slipstream effect!!
However it has over the past two seasons made it more competitive - just!

Actually, the main reason is because of tyres. Although DRS and KERS have played a part, they're really no different to changing engine maps, increasing revs (both common since the dawn of the EUC, pretty much) or using the turbo 'boost' button of the 80s.

[MrKipling43]

garypotter said:

F1 cannot be compared to MotoGP surely, F1 with its false overatking, mickey mouse tyres that last 2 laps, drivers running at 85% as they need to look after them,has this really been a great year for F1 - not for me.

sorry rant over

I'm getting really bored of this argument. This is what Grand Prix racing is. It always has been, and it always will be. It's not a sprint race.

[Johno]

Carbon brakes need to be very hot too work, they need either weight in terms of aerodynamis or mass to help generate the heat to work efficiently to stop the vehicle.

If you have neither you have to create the situation with incredibly adhesive tyres, and adopt a braking style only suitable for the race track.

Therefore the transfer of carbon braking systems to road bikes is a nonsense argument, you'd have race compound rubber which would be gon ein a matter of a couple of hundred miles and a variety of motorcyclists hanging off roundabout go left signs where they lost the front trying to get heat into the carbon brake set up or xhere they didn't get heat into the set up and went straight on anyway.

However, if you wish to disucss

Slipper clutches
Big bang engines
Firing orders
Cross plain cranks
Traction control

And now I'm bored with keeping writing a long list of race to road transfers of technology I'm sure many would be happy to assist with adding more.

I also understand the 'pure' carbon braking systems from F1 etc do not transfer to the road and it is a halfway house in fact of carbon/ceramics, so also not a really fair comparison. Not a massively successful one reading the Porsche forums, as they do not seem to mast real daily as robustly as their steel cousins.

Either way, both series contribute to their respective genre, cars or bikes, to say they don't is niaive at best, or derogatory to the millions ploughed in by manufacturers at worst.

[MrKipling43]

Johno said:

Stuff

Ultimately they're just as irrelevant to road technology as each other. But I don't see that as a problem.

[RX7]

I love watching MotoGp and have done for years, the last few seasons have been poor with regard to close racing (on the whole), but watching some of the top riders hustle one of those machines around still astonishes me and will continue to watch for that fact alone. Although the abilities and skill in drivers is no less in F1, to me it doesnt just look as intense, effortless almost.

I really hope Marquez can mix it up at the front otherwise we could be into a very boring championship again next year!

Personally i think there is too much fiddling about behind the scenes to try and make the bikes and cars in F1 closer.

P.S I will take the bet Rossi doesnt win, what odds you giving me

Edited by RX7 on Monday 12th November 17:59