ECU mapping - which is best?
Discussion
Ok,
Having looked for a while and driven a few re-mapped cars I'm looking at having the ECU in my 4ltr Chim done.
Question is that I've seen & heard good things about two different methods :-
1. Mark Adams & a Power Engineering session
2. Unichip at Motivation Motorsport
The costs appear to be roughly the same so does anybody have any views?
Cheers
Having looked for a while and driven a few re-mapped cars I'm looking at having the ECU in my 4ltr Chim done.
Question is that I've seen & heard good things about two different methods :-
1. Mark Adams & a Power Engineering session
2. Unichip at Motivation Motorsport
The costs appear to be roughly the same so does anybody have any views?
Cheers
Motorvation did a good job with mine last week. Got rid of the flat spots and idling problems I was having. Car seems good, but it's in urgent need of new diff bearings so I'm not trying too hard (booked in at another independent on Wednesday for the work).
Biggest change they made was to adjust my throttle cable so I get full throttle - I was only getting 3/4 throttle with the pedal to the floor. The car was fast before ... can't wait to give it some now.
T/.
P.S. They commented that my car was mega overfuelling at full throttle. It has the standard RPI tornado chip in it (i.e. not customised by Mark Adams for my engine, but I believe (i.e. I'm probably wrong) this is the starting point and he usually doesn't make many changes from this baseline). Next time I'm down there I'll take my std chip and see which generates more power ... out of interest ;-)
>> Edited by Trefor on Monday 12th August 21:14
Biggest change they made was to adjust my throttle cable so I get full throttle - I was only getting 3/4 throttle with the pedal to the floor. The car was fast before ... can't wait to give it some now.
T/.
P.S. They commented that my car was mega overfuelling at full throttle. It has the standard RPI tornado chip in it (i.e. not customised by Mark Adams for my engine, but I believe (i.e. I'm probably wrong) this is the starting point and he usually doesn't make many changes from this baseline). Next time I'm down there I'll take my std chip and see which generates more power ... out of interest ;-)
>> Edited by Trefor on Monday 12th August 21:14
Plugging the Tornado chip in without getting Mark to set it up is a bit of a risk as it assumes a certain set of characteristics which your engine may or may not be producing. Sometimes it is in your favour and in others it isn't. It also assumes that there are not many other problems as well. The common problem is that the set up discovers other issues which need sorting to get the best out of it.
Like most things if it was easy and straightforward, TVR would have done it.
Like most things if it was easy and straightforward, TVR would have done it.
Well am definitely erring down the Motivation route - nothing against Mark Adams though as I know he's good.
But bloody Te$co Insurance claims they want another £155 if I have the mod done - despite me stating it will still be less than the quoted 240bhp - arggggg if it wasn't for the free track cover (in writing).
Anybody got any comments re the Emerald stuff as that also sounds interesting?
Mate with an Exige has the ability to download 'ECU maps' for various circuits into his, sounds a bit mad but anthing like this for the TVR?
But bloody Te$co Insurance claims they want another £155 if I have the mod done - despite me stating it will still be less than the quoted 240bhp - arggggg if it wasn't for the free track cover (in writing).
Anybody got any comments re the Emerald stuff as that also sounds interesting?
Mate with an Exige has the ability to download 'ECU maps' for various circuits into his, sounds a bit mad but anthing like this for the TVR?
Hi Guys
Although I do look at PistonHeads quite regularly, I don't generally make any comments. Because my work is discussed quite a lot I believe my participation could stifle open discussion. I also think it is an abuse of this facility to have suppliers jumping directly onto people who may be considering buying their products and services.
Anyway there are quite a few other well-informed savvy people who provide excellent information (e.g. Steve Heath, Tim Lamont, Manek Dubash, etc), and are familiar with my work.
This time I am compelled to write because there is clearly a lack of information about what it is that I actually do when re-programming a vehicle, and how this differs from any other approach. This might be a bit of a long message, but please stick with it!
Firstly my advantage is that I have totally comprehensive access to the software inside the Lucas systems, and the tools originally used to develop the engine. Literally thousands of hours of dedicated dynamometer work and software analysis back up my products and services.
Additionally I have over 13 years experience of purely Rover V8 engines – in the process of which I have worked on over 6,000 vehicles and/or their management systems. The bulk of the vehicles I do are road going, using derivatives of the standard systems.
Without these resources, I would not be able to offer the level of detail in reprogramming. The only remaining options would then be a piggyback system (Unichip, Icon), or complete replacement of the standard system (Motec, DTA, Omex, Emerald, etc). For anyone who has to have their own control of the system and/or cannot get into the original, these are the options.
Please note that this is not a shot at anyone else, but it may help you realise how much is involved in the detail of total reprogramming! This is also why most of the leading TVR, Rover V8, and Land Rover specialists work with me.
All the Lucas systems are supported (4CU, 14CU, 14CUX, GEMS), in addition to Motec, Omex and DTA. Applications have ranged from short-stroke 3 Litre versions (rev to 8500RPM on 14CUX), twin-turbo 4.0 Litre (14CUX, 11PSI, 410BHP-450lb/ft in a Range Rover last month), and 5.0 Litre supercharged (Lucas-GEMS, 340BHP-430lb/ft). I haven’t found anything yet I can’t do with them!
The Tornado software upgrade covers the following items as a minimum. With the exception of full load fuelling over 3100RPM on catalyst cars, or general fuelling on non-catalyst cars, these cannot easily be achieved from outside the ECU:
- Cranking fuel decreased to reduce the risk of flooding, with small starting delay to allow oil pressure to build before starting.
- Decreased cold and warm up fuelling to reduce the risk of flooding.
- Quicker more progressive throttle response, and better mid range torque. Full-load enrichment throttle map revised.
- Re-profiled fuel map, which provides good fuel economy on part throttle and allows engine to rev more freely. Fuel map extended to 6,500RPM (typically) for more accurate top-end fuelling.
- Idle speed stabilised to give smoother idle, and increased engine braking.
- Airflow meter re-scaling - Vital for good driveability and fuel economy, especially on large capacity engines. Allows correct control of part throttle fuelling.
- Note that airflow meter Scaling determines when the top of the fuel map is reached. When using an engine of larger capacity than the software was designed for, the top of the map will be reached too soon. This leads to over-fuelling at part throttle, and under-fuelling at full throttle.
Many of the cars I see are brought to me for bad manners (especially shunting around 2,000RPM on catalyst cars). The cure for this is subtle and cannot generally be achieved from outside the ECU.
For catalyst cars, altering any of the ECU inputs or outputs from outside the ECU will not alter the fuelling below 3,100RPM where the car is on Lambda control. This technique is much like putting shelves up on a ship at sea, using a spirit level.
Poor driveability is often caused by the Oxygen sensors having to apply too much correction to the fuelling map to get the mixture right.
Because I can trace the Lambda correction from inside the ECU, I can alter the map to minimise the correction and this is what makes all the difference. I couldn’t do it without the unique development equipment.
If you want to know more then please call me personally! Thanks for reading through, and I hope it has been interesting.
Tel: 01694 720 144
Mob: 07798 582 390
Although I do look at PistonHeads quite regularly, I don't generally make any comments. Because my work is discussed quite a lot I believe my participation could stifle open discussion. I also think it is an abuse of this facility to have suppliers jumping directly onto people who may be considering buying their products and services.
Anyway there are quite a few other well-informed savvy people who provide excellent information (e.g. Steve Heath, Tim Lamont, Manek Dubash, etc), and are familiar with my work.
This time I am compelled to write because there is clearly a lack of information about what it is that I actually do when re-programming a vehicle, and how this differs from any other approach. This might be a bit of a long message, but please stick with it!
Firstly my advantage is that I have totally comprehensive access to the software inside the Lucas systems, and the tools originally used to develop the engine. Literally thousands of hours of dedicated dynamometer work and software analysis back up my products and services.
Additionally I have over 13 years experience of purely Rover V8 engines – in the process of which I have worked on over 6,000 vehicles and/or their management systems. The bulk of the vehicles I do are road going, using derivatives of the standard systems.
Without these resources, I would not be able to offer the level of detail in reprogramming. The only remaining options would then be a piggyback system (Unichip, Icon), or complete replacement of the standard system (Motec, DTA, Omex, Emerald, etc). For anyone who has to have their own control of the system and/or cannot get into the original, these are the options.
Please note that this is not a shot at anyone else, but it may help you realise how much is involved in the detail of total reprogramming! This is also why most of the leading TVR, Rover V8, and Land Rover specialists work with me.
All the Lucas systems are supported (4CU, 14CU, 14CUX, GEMS), in addition to Motec, Omex and DTA. Applications have ranged from short-stroke 3 Litre versions (rev to 8500RPM on 14CUX), twin-turbo 4.0 Litre (14CUX, 11PSI, 410BHP-450lb/ft in a Range Rover last month), and 5.0 Litre supercharged (Lucas-GEMS, 340BHP-430lb/ft). I haven’t found anything yet I can’t do with them!
The Tornado software upgrade covers the following items as a minimum. With the exception of full load fuelling over 3100RPM on catalyst cars, or general fuelling on non-catalyst cars, these cannot easily be achieved from outside the ECU:
- Cranking fuel decreased to reduce the risk of flooding, with small starting delay to allow oil pressure to build before starting.
- Decreased cold and warm up fuelling to reduce the risk of flooding.
- Quicker more progressive throttle response, and better mid range torque. Full-load enrichment throttle map revised.
- Re-profiled fuel map, which provides good fuel economy on part throttle and allows engine to rev more freely. Fuel map extended to 6,500RPM (typically) for more accurate top-end fuelling.
- Idle speed stabilised to give smoother idle, and increased engine braking.
- Airflow meter re-scaling - Vital for good driveability and fuel economy, especially on large capacity engines. Allows correct control of part throttle fuelling.
- Note that airflow meter Scaling determines when the top of the fuel map is reached. When using an engine of larger capacity than the software was designed for, the top of the map will be reached too soon. This leads to over-fuelling at part throttle, and under-fuelling at full throttle.
Many of the cars I see are brought to me for bad manners (especially shunting around 2,000RPM on catalyst cars). The cure for this is subtle and cannot generally be achieved from outside the ECU.
For catalyst cars, altering any of the ECU inputs or outputs from outside the ECU will not alter the fuelling below 3,100RPM where the car is on Lambda control. This technique is much like putting shelves up on a ship at sea, using a spirit level.
Poor driveability is often caused by the Oxygen sensors having to apply too much correction to the fuelling map to get the mixture right.
Because I can trace the Lambda correction from inside the ECU, I can alter the map to minimise the correction and this is what makes all the difference. I couldn’t do it without the unique development equipment.
If you want to know more then please call me personally! Thanks for reading through, and I hope it has been interesting.
Tel: 01694 720 144
Mob: 07798 582 390
Hi Trefor
If you have an off-the-shelf chip from RPI, it may or may not be ideal for your car! Since the chips I supply to RPI can end up anywhere in the world (and I generally don't have that information) they have to be safe.
Generally I don't like doing things this way, since they can be spectacularly wrong.... That is why I prefer to see each one individually.
The extremes of use include 40 Degrees Centigrade ambient, high altitude, and low Octane fuel. All this in a Range Rover crawling up a 45 Degree slope over rocks at 3MPH with the aircon running!
To cater for this, running rich under full load is the only way to keep them safe. A lean mixture can cause piston failure.
If you want to let me know which part number you have (something like X36-SXW-46) then I can tell you whether it is the high performance extended map version. You can post it here, phone, or e-mail me if you like.
Regards - Mark
If you have an off-the-shelf chip from RPI, it may or may not be ideal for your car! Since the chips I supply to RPI can end up anywhere in the world (and I generally don't have that information) they have to be safe.
Generally I don't like doing things this way, since they can be spectacularly wrong.... That is why I prefer to see each one individually.
The extremes of use include 40 Degrees Centigrade ambient, high altitude, and low Octane fuel. All this in a Range Rover crawling up a 45 Degree slope over rocks at 3MPH with the aircon running!
To cater for this, running rich under full load is the only way to keep them safe. A lean mixture can cause piston failure.
If you want to let me know which part number you have (something like X36-SXW-46) then I can tell you whether it is the high performance extended map version. You can post it here, phone, or e-mail me if you like.
Regards - Mark
In my opinion with regard to chipping/ mapping there aren't really any options, Mark can do it in his sleep, and his rolling road sessions are usually a party atmosphere with plenty of TVRs attending and the occasional monster, ie the Griff that could lift its front wheels off the ground under acceleration !!
Tim.
Tim.
quote:
There seems to be rather a lot of chat about re chipping these days, do all Chim and Griffs need it. And if so seems a bit poor of TVR selling a car which basically isnt runnung as well as it should.
Err no. I ran my first Griff completely standard and with no mods and there are hundreds of cars out there that do like wise. Also bear in mind that many that have been rechipped have been modified or have done a lot of mileage and this also chnages the engine characteristics. I think TVR do a pretty good job in practice.
Steve
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