Extra cam lubrication - is this a good idea?
Discussion
spend said:
steve-V8s said:
That will be Valvolene VR1 then.
Can you get it to suit? ie decent grade of synthetic that doesn't fall apart when hot...Personally I'd rather choose the oil I wanted and add the compcams stuff, but I do have a long standing itch for roller cams
Think my strategy from here will be to put this one back together and immediately start building a replacement to slot in when it happens again.... might be an LS 'though
Don't forget that we tend to run cams that are pretty tough on flat tappets, which doesn't help matters..
Changes in oil concoctions, roller cams...is a chicken & egg thing.I honestly see the long term future in replacing the followers with nice rollers. You can get better ramps, and they should be far more durable whilst conforming with modern design & lube factors?
Changes in oil concoctions, roller cams...is a chicken & egg thing.I honestly see the long term future in replacing the followers with nice rollers. You can get better ramps, and they should be far more durable whilst conforming with modern design & lube factors?
Roller cams are definetly the ultimate in as much as power and lasting, the downside is the cost, i have done a couple of rollers in the past on rover heads and you are looking at over £2000, basically due to valve springs, you just cant get enough spring pressure on the standard size valve spring so you have to run a rev kit in the valley and it is all one of jobs!
It sounds horrific Rob, but if they last even 2 times longer it may be economical..
As for rev kits I cant see rollers take any more spring pressure to keep the follower on the cam? Seems to me like they are only required if you are going really lairy cam design and super high rpms. Does seem like the roller followers themselves are extremely expensive which appears to account for a bulk of the extra cost?
I can see that you might be apprehensive having to ask customers to pay the initial costs, and that it might mean less labour income in the long run, but I would have thought you would be quite excited by the different profiles that could be used?
As for rev kits I cant see rollers take any more spring pressure to keep the follower on the cam? Seems to me like they are only required if you are going really lairy cam design and super high rpms. Does seem like the roller followers themselves are extremely expensive which appears to account for a bulk of the extra cost?
I can see that you might be apprehensive having to ask customers to pay the initial costs, and that it might mean less labour income in the long run, but I would have thought you would be quite excited by the different profiles that could be used?
Just as I was diving further in tonight, was wondering if anyone had ever contemplated a single ohc set up on a Rover? In so many ways, the bottom end is a reallty elegant and compact piece of design but then we have that bloody awful valvetrain.... just have this mental image of a Ducati like springless positive closure system, belt driven off the crank. 10krpm with no bounce anyone? 
Pupp said:
Just as I was diving further in tonight, was wondering if anyone had ever contemplated a single ohc set up on a Rover? In so many ways, the bottom end is a reallty elegant and compact piece of design but then we have that bloody awful valvetrain.... just have this mental image of a Ducati like springless positive closure system, belt driven off the crank. 10krpm with no bounce anyone?
It was done about 30 years ago aka the repco brabham!
OK back to the topic - only a little progress but taking a drill to my block was a f
n big step for me today!
Oilway drilled & tapped M10x1.0 (brake pipe fitting thread).
I took the plug out of the rear of the block in order to remove the swarf (pipe cleaners are great for stuff like this
)
Just to test the fitting this is sawn off the end of an old flexible brake pipe, I'll get a proper (longer thread) bulkhead fitting.
Pipe in place
I haven't fully figured out how I'm going to secure it yet - probably just some steel wire around the thin webs at each end unless anyone has a better suggestion.
I'll get the engine back together and drive the oil pump with a drill & see what happens.
I can always blank off the hole if it ends up being a waste of time.
n big step for me today!Oilway drilled & tapped M10x1.0 (brake pipe fitting thread).
I took the plug out of the rear of the block in order to remove the swarf (pipe cleaners are great for stuff like this
)Just to test the fitting this is sawn off the end of an old flexible brake pipe, I'll get a proper (longer thread) bulkhead fitting.
Pipe in place
I haven't fully figured out how I'm going to secure it yet - probably just some steel wire around the thin webs at each end unless anyone has a better suggestion.
I'll get the engine back together and drive the oil pump with a drill & see what happens.
I can always blank off the hole if it ends up being a waste of time.
Edited by Barkychoc on Sunday 27th September 21:08
Have you worked out how much flow you're going to take down that pipe, and also how much flow there would be if the pipe fractured? If the answers are very different it might be worth arranging some form of restrictor at the supply end to prevent your oil pressure collapsing if the pipe does fracture. I suppose in the crudest form this could just be a crimp in the pipe, but I'm sure there are better options.
Pupp said:
It would be a major leap of faith to do and I've no idea what it would do to the stiffness of the block but the three thicker webs in the middle would physically take holes to pass the spray bar through... 
I'm not prepared to leap that far - and have you given some thought to how you would actually get a drill in to drill the webs - it can't be done! OK you might manage it with one of those right angle jobbies but I'm not going to do it.
I have a couple of thoughts that might work, I'll share them when I've had a tinker.
With regard to the pipe fracturing I'll give that some thought too
Edited by Barkychoc on Sunday 27th September 22:02
OK moving on to securing the pipe, does this work for you?
On the one hand its a crude bodge, on the other maybe Rover & TVR would have been proud!
Wire threaded under web
Twisted to secure
Pipe secured at both ends
It needs additional support in the centre, my thoughts are to drill and tap the webs and fit a metal strap where the white tape is. There is enough room without hitting the oilway for the tappets to get something like a 4-5mm thread in there. You can see the oilway drilling to avoid in the tappet holes.
You can't see but I also filed a light groove in the top of the webs where the pipe sits just to locate it in position.
All comments welcomed for and against.
On the one hand its a crude bodge, on the other maybe Rover & TVR would have been proud!
Wire threaded under web
Twisted to secure
Pipe secured at both ends
It needs additional support in the centre, my thoughts are to drill and tap the webs and fit a metal strap where the white tape is. There is enough room without hitting the oilway for the tappets to get something like a 4-5mm thread in there. You can see the oilway drilling to avoid in the tappet holes.
You can't see but I also filed a light groove in the top of the webs where the pipe sits just to locate it in position.
All comments welcomed for and against.
Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 10th October 15:39
Looking at the way you're retaining the spray bar, my concern is that any vibration will eventually cause the web to wear through the copper wire, wire drops into camshaft. The wire will stretch over time allowing the pipe to move slightly.
It sounds really crude but a chunky cable tie may be a better choice. You could try heat shrink around the pipe at the webs to protect it.
As for drilling the webs and adding a strap, how about something like they use to retain electrical wire on walls, a hook attachd to the wall on one side. Alternate these on the webs (left/right) and it should be strong enough. Means you only need one small hole per web.
It sounds really crude but a chunky cable tie may be a better choice. You could try heat shrink around the pipe at the webs to protect it.
As for drilling the webs and adding a strap, how about something like they use to retain electrical wire on walls, a hook attachd to the wall on one side. Alternate these on the webs (left/right) and it should be strong enough. Means you only need one small hole per web.
Konrod said:
Looking at the way you're retaining the spray bar, my concern is that any vibration will eventually cause the web to wear through the copper wire, wire drops into camshaft.
Agreed, vibration/fretting is an unknown. Fretting you could address by a piece of petrol/heat tolerant hose slipped over the pipe where it is clamped? For the middle bracket to make it clearer I was thinking of drilling & tapping as shown roughly here.
I really didn't want to drill the webs across the valley if I could help it.
I presume the brackets you are thinking about are P clips like these?
They could be a good idea - a similar arrangement is used on the old ford pinto oil pipe you can see in the top of this pack.
I'm also considering maybe using either kunifer or steel for the pipe, I'm still pondering.
I really didn't want to drill the webs across the valley if I could help it.
I presume the brackets you are thinking about are P clips like these?
They could be a good idea - a similar arrangement is used on the old ford pinto oil pipe you can see in the top of this pack.
I'm also considering maybe using either kunifer or steel for the pipe, I'm still pondering.
Edited by Barkychoc on Saturday 10th October 17:31
I'd be concerned with tapping into the webs in case expansion of the casting and the fastener were different under heat with any consequence that the casting fails... I know loads of threads are made all over the engine that take steel fasteners without any adverse consequence from this but if, say, a chunk of the web fell off then it goes really where you do not want it.
I think some sort of 'wrap-around' solution is the key if cross-drilling is out(certainly don't like the twisted wire) and wonder whether a bespoke flat strip clamp could be fabricated that uses a crimped join (like a cv boot)? A bit complex to form at home perhaps
Big flat nylon zip strip is probably just as durable/secure in reality, though I'm not sure what their resistance is to immersion in hot oil?
I think some sort of 'wrap-around' solution is the key if cross-drilling is out(certainly don't like the twisted wire) and wonder whether a bespoke flat strip clamp could be fabricated that uses a crimped join (like a cv boot)? A bit complex to form at home perhaps
Big flat nylon zip strip is probably just as durable/secure in reality, though I'm not sure what their resistance is to immersion in hot oil?
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