X150 coupe: Talk me out of it

[MrManual]

Baked_bean said:

I am considering these and viewed at 2009 (5.0) example with 55kish miles…full Jaguar history and it is a lovely example. They want 19k for it, which I worry might be abit much from what I am reading…any thoughts?

I don’t expect an investment, but don’t want a car I can’t sell and that stings come sale time.

Unfortunately the market is like that at the moment, dealers are also snapping up private sales of XKR's

I saw an advert on Autotrader for an XKR 5.0, it was put on Thursday last week by a Private Seller for around £19.5k. I planned to phone Friday evening to enquire however the advert disappears from Autotrader so I cannot phone them.

Friend messages me last night to show me the same car advertised with a dealer for £5k more.....

The dealer has done nothing to the car yet they are charging £5k more, ridiculous mark-up if you ask me for next to no work.

[anonymous-user]

Meanwhile this stunner with 56k miles on the clock will go for £14k odd at auction



This'll 72k mile 4.2 will get £9k



This 52k mile XKR with £4,500 of extras (ACC, performance exhaust, camera, adaptive lighting, camera, DAB) will go for £22k



And I guess half a dozen go through every week so they're far from rare. Each of those will probably end up with some chancer sticking 50 - 75% margin on it.

I've said it before, there is something weird about a certain class of buyer of old Jaguar that takes some really mad fked up pride in massively overpaying for a car with a lot of dashboard shine on it and a big pile of invoices for work that a dealer charged for and probably never did 8 years ago.

[8bit]

MrManual said:

Unfortunately the market is like that at the moment, dealers are also snapping up private sales of XKR's

I saw an advert on Autotrader for an XKR 5.0, it was put on Thursday last week by a Private Seller for around £19.5k. I planned to phone Friday evening to enquire however the advert disappears from Autotrader so I cannot phone them.

Friend messages me last night to show me the same car advertised with a dealer for £5k more.....

The dealer has done nothing to the car yet they are charging £5k more, ridiculous mark-up if you ask me for next to no work.

Possibly being offered by the dealer on "sale or return".

Mine is still for sale (privately)...

[unrepentant]

MrManual said:

Unfortunately the market is like that at the moment, dealers are also snapping up private sales of XKR's

I saw an advert on Autotrader for an XKR 5.0, it was put on Thursday last week by a Private Seller for around £19.5k. I planned to phone Friday evening to enquire however the advert disappears from Autotrader so I cannot phone them.

Friend messages me last night to show me the same car advertised with a dealer for £5k more.....

The dealer has done nothing to the car yet they are charging £5k more, ridiculous mark-up if you ask me for next to no work.

You don’t know that the dealer has done nothing to the car. He is also required to offer a warranty on it is he not? Maybe the car was worth more than the private seller was asking? Maybe the dealer was just a tad smarter and quicker off the mark than you were?

Profit is not a dirty word and if a dealer is smart enough and decisive enough to react and pick up a bargain why shouldn’t he make a decent turn. The price he paid has no bearing on what he’s asking. His margin is his business.

[MrManual]

unrepentant said:

You don’t know that the dealer has done nothing to the car. He is also required to offer a warranty on it is he not? Maybe the car was worth more than the private seller was asking? Maybe the dealer was just a tad smarter and quicker off the mark than you were?

Profit is not a dirty word and if a dealer is smart enough and decisive enough to react and pick up a bargain why shouldn’t he make a decent turn. The price he paid has no bearing on what he’s asking. His margin is his business.

He's had the car for less than 48 hours and has already put up brand new photos and different plates on, I don't think you can do much in under 48 hours. The car was in an amazing condition as it was well detailed with lots of photos.

Yes they were quicker off the mark then I was but I can't think of another business whereby you can buy something and mark it up by 25% in under 48 hours? Not sure why being smart has got anything to do with it

Obviously profit needs to be made, I'm not anti-capitalist but I do not enjoy it when dealers will offer next to nothing for cars as it has a scratch here or a minor scuff yet when it comes to buying the vehicle and you comment on said scratch or scuff they retort with "Well it is a used car m8"

[anonymous-user]

For plenty of people a warranty, finance facilities, presumably proper prep, and other dealer facilities for "peace of mind" are worth a 25% premium. Not for me, but I can see why people might. Not many people are that comfortable with handing £20,000 over in twenties, or even a bank transfer that large with no comeback.

For the dealer, assuming he actually stands behind the cars he sells, you'd have to be smoking crack to sell old Jags with a reputation for munching their engines without a pretty big margin. In fact I'd avoid any dealer selling close to trade because he probably has no intention whatsoever of helping you out if it goes wrong!

What I really don't like are the "specialists" who would try asking £35k for that car they got for £19,500 but if people want to pay it what is it to me?

The other lesson is that if you see a car that looks great don't sit on your hands, I've had some real dhead buyers get arsey because they wouldn't come down to view for a week and I sold the car in the meantime. Man standing there with a fistful of tenners tops everything else.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 6th March 14:12

[reddiesel]

stickleback123 said:

For plenty of people a warranty, finance facilities, presumably proper prep, and other dealer facilities for "peace of mind" are worth a 25% premium. Not for me, but I can see why people might. Not many people are that comfortable with handing £20,000 over in twenties, or even a bank transfer that large with no comeback.

For the dealer, assuming he actually stands behind the cars he sells, you'd have to be smoking crack to sell old Jags with a reputation for munching their engines without a pretty big margin. In fact I'd avoid any dealer selling close to trade because he probably has no intention whatsoever of helping you out if it goes wrong!

What I really don't like are the "specialists" who would try asking £35k for that car they got for £19,500 but if people want to pay it what is it to me?

The other lesson is that if you see a car that looks great don't sit on your hands, I've had some real dhead buyers get arsey because they wouldn't come down to view for a week and I sold the car in the meantime. Man standing there with a fistful of tenners tops everything else.

Edited by stickleback123 on Monday 6th March 14:12

What old Jags exactly are munching their engines ? I have owned them for nigh on 40 years and never once suffered this fate . I think we all know about Dealers margins and the often quoted reasons for them . Personally I get tired of the relentless moaning of so called " potential owners " about prices of Jaguars quoted by the trade and using it as an excuse as to why they still havent bought one . There are plenty good cars out there for sale owned by Private Sellers and many of them knowledgeable Jaguar People , increasingly I find myself asking " what then is the problem " ? There is for example a Poster on this very Thread selling an excellent used example and yet seemingly cant find a purchaser .Its like my old granny used to say some posters on here would " talk the arse of a donkey " its about time they put their hand in the pocket and got the car bought .

[reddiesel]

stickleback123 said:

Meanwhile this stunner with 56k miles on the clock will go for £14k odd at auction



This'll 72k mile 4.2 will get £9k



This 52k mile XKR with £4,500 of extras (ACC, performance exhaust, camera, adaptive lighting, camera, DAB) will go for £22k



And I guess half a dozen go through every week so they're far from rare. Each of those will probably end up with some chancer sticking 50 - 75% margin on it.

I've said it before, there is something weird about a certain class of buyer of old Jaguar that takes some really mad fked up pride in massively overpaying for a car with a lot of dashboard shine on it and a big pile of invoices for work that a dealer charged for and probably never did 8 years ago.

I wasnt aware than anyone was suggesting they were rare and who is this certain class of Buyer you are talking about ? He certainly isnt on this Thread
It seems to me that you make a lot of assumptions , are you saying a pile of invoices as proof of work done is pointless and fake ? Personally I doubt half of these prices you are quoting and having bought many commercial vehicles at auction it often depends who is in the ring at the time and many other often intangibles . Granted an X150 wont have the same amount of interested parties as a Sprinter Van but this lecture you are intent on giving us that any X150 is apparently near worthless and the Histories inevitably fake is a load of old bks .

Edited by reddiesel on Monday 6th March 19:49

[reddiesel]

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202302174...

This has got to be worth £10k of anyones money , never failed an MOT and a History better than most . I make that £1,000 dearer than Sticklebacks supposed estimate for a comparable Model and an infinitely better car

[anonymous-user]

The prices I'm quoting are first CAP estimates and then actual hammer prices, my personal opinion on what they are worth doesn't come into it. I also have a friend who works at one of the auction sites who can check the cars out for me in person so I don't have to rely on the reports and know which ones are wrecks and which ones are worth looking at. A 130k XK went for £3,500 last week, it needed about £400 spending on it but was a decent car.

If this is, as you so insightfully say, "bks" then it'll doubtless come as a horrible shock to the 30 or so buyers I have seen win auctions, hand over (not very much) money and drive away in their (not very expensive) X150s.

I'm sorry you appear to take the depreciation that Jaguars experience as a personal insult, I've no dog in this fight whatsoever, but you might want to get into classic Ferraris if seeing a car depreciate to nothing bothers you, because old smoker Jags are going to give you an aneurism.

As for engines grenading the timing chain issues with the 5.0 are hardly a secret, and the numbers of non runners with engine issues you see for sale is entirely disproportionate to the numbers sold. Of course you never know how they were treated, but you rarely see 4.2 litre engine failures. I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 6th March 20:24

[8bit]

It's just not reasonable to compare auction prices to private, independent dealer or franchised dealer prices though because the vast majority of prospective buyers just won't go near an auction as there's a common perception that anything sold there must be a time bomb. The 30 or so buyers you talk of are in no way representative of the private used car buyer as a whole. Decrying dealer prices or even private sellers as greedy because they're looking for more than CAP prices just isn't a reasonable view IMHO - if it was then sites like Autotrader wouldn't give different values for private sale vs. part-exchange as both of those values would be in line with the CAP price.

Having said that, there are definitely some private sellers with a screw loose. A salsa red 5.0 XKR, 10 plate on 45k came up over the weekend - £28.5k That has to be over £10k above Autotrader's guide price for a private sale!

[reddiesel]

stickleback123 said:

The prices I'm quoting are first CAP estimates and then actual hammer prices, my personal opinion on what they are worth doesn't come into it. I also have a friend who works at one of the auction sites who can check the cars out for me in person so I don't have to rely on the reports and know which ones are wrecks and which ones are worth looking at. A 130k XK went for £3,500 last week, it needed about £400 spending on it but was a decent car.

If this is, as you so insightfully say, "bks" then it'll doubtless come as a horrible shock to the 30 or so buyers I have seen win auctions, hand over (not very much) money and drive away in their (not very expensive) X150s.

I'm sorry you appear to take the depreciation that Jaguars experience as a personal insult, I've no dog in this fight whatsoever, but you might want to get into classic Ferraris if seeing a car depreciate to nothing bothers you, because old smoker Jags are going to give you an aneurism.

As for engines grenading the timing chain issues with the 5.0 are hardly a secret, and the numbers of non runners with engine issues you see for sale is entirely disproportionate to the numbers sold. Of course you never know how they were treated, but you rarely see 4.2 litre engine failures. I'm aware that the plural of anecdote is not data.

Edited by stickleback123 on Monday 6th March 20:24

What do you mean your Personal Opinions dont come into it ? You have spent half this thread telling us the X150 is overvalued crap and anyone who doesn't buy at Auction is a fool . I dont give a monkeys about your so called experience at Auctions because all you have imported to the thread is that cars are often cheaper at Auctions , its hardly groundbreaking knowledge is it ? It also appears now that you know next to nothing about the actual car as you tell us you have a friend who " checks them out " for you . Its a bit of a cheek to criticise my insight when you yourself rely on someone elses .
What do you mean I take the depreciation of Jaguars as a personal insult ? Anyone buying a Jaguar or indeed any Car knows that depreciation cant be avoided .Ferrari ? I actually have the money to buy a Ferrari , instead I chose an Aston Martin . I dont "get into" anything , I simply buy what I like and can afford , otherwise I save till I can get it . I work on Building Sites long hours , I know the value of money .
Timing chains arent an issue on the 5.0 V8 certainly not proportionally and nothing like Bore Scoring and IMS failure on certain 911 Porsche . So much so that most Porsche Dealers wont even look at secondhand 996 Porsche 911 3.6 models and the same for 997 3.8 gen 1 unless they can do a Bore Check .
I dont remember this ever being the case with the Trade and a 5.0 V8 Jaguar . Perhaps your more knowledgeable friend will fill you in on the accuracy of what I am saying ? Its not a lot of engines its actually very very few . This is the trouble with the Internet , a bandwagon is inevitably started and ill informed People like yourself suddenly think they are experts and climb aboard .
With respect when buying any X150 I do know how they have been treated because I make it my business to know . These arent difficult cars to buy well and unlike you , I dont need recourse to your friend or anyone else . Let me tell you in closing I have absolutely no axe to grind with you personally but I think its necessary to challenge the accuracy of what you are saying and apart from Cars depreciate in value and are often cheaper at Auction , in my view thats largely been nonsense .

Edited by reddiesel on Tuesday 7th March 06:33

[anonymous-user]

I don’t know how many times I can say this before it sinks in.

Retail/private SALE (not ADVERTISED) prices can be inferred from auction closing prices, be they trade or eBay or any other public car auction.

They are far more useful for gauging your budget than the spread of prices on Autotrader.

If the people interested in what they should be budgeting for an X150 follow a few on eBay or car and classic auctions and see what they close at it’ll give them a far better idea of value than adverts that sit around for months and owners/fanboys opinions.

Add a margin for a dealer sale. Perhaps add a smaller uplift for private if you’re poor at haggling, or if you find a particularly great spec and history car.

Also, listen for timing chain noises

Suggesting the fact that I having access to the mechanics who are tasked with inspecting and repairing cars coming through auctions implies I am somehow crap at sourcing cars makes you look like a stroppy pillock. Any serious trader or car purchaser would give their left bk for that.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 06:42

[8bit]

stickleback123 said:

I don’t know how many times I can say this before it sinks in.

Retail/private SALE (not ADVERTISED) prices can be inferred from auction closing prices, be they trade or eBay or any other public car auction.

And I don't know how many times I have to reply with this - no they absolutely cannot. Just because you put a lot of time and energy into watching auction sale values doesn't mean that's how it works. Leaving aside private sales for a moment, most independent dealers get stock either from trade-ins or from auction, you're not seriously suggesting that they will end up selling these cars for the same amount they paid at auction, are you?

Edited by 8bit on Tuesday 7th March 09:14

[anonymous-user]

8bit said:

And I don't know how many times I have to reply with this - no they absolutely cannot. Just because you put a lot of time and energy into watching auction sale values doesn't mean that's how it works. Leaving aside private sales for a moment, most independent dealers get stock either from trade-ins or from auction, you're not seriously suggesting that they will end up selling these cars for the same amount they paid at auction, are you?

Edited by 8bit on Tuesday 7th March 09:14

Inferred. I said, in 10 different ways, inferred. The same way the price movements in crude infer the upcoming price movements in petrol and other refined goods. It’s not rocket science.

One more time:

If auctions and trade ins are where the stock comes from which ultimately ends up at retail I think we can assume a causal correlation, right?

If prices drop at auction they can be expected, after a while, to similarly drop at retail.

Private sellers are competing with dealers, so if dealer prices drop eventually, after a period of hope and dreams, we can expect to see private prices drop.

Changes in the market are reflected very quickly in auction closing values (again, public and trade) whereas advertised prices can stay hopeful for a long time due to retailer traders not wanting to take a loss and private sellers hoping for the right buyer.

No, I do not expect retailers to sell at auction prices, either public or trade, I expect a 25% to 50% margin depending on the car and quality of the dealers pre and backup, but I do expect private sellers that actually want their cars to sell to be going for close to public auction prices with like for like cars.

However if someone wants to pay £40k for a late X150 PM me, I'll even chuck in a fistful of magic beans to sweeten the deal.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 09:52

[anonymous-user]

8bit said:

And I don't know how many times I have to reply with this - no they absolutely cannot. Just because you put a lot of time and energy into watching auction sale values doesn't mean that's how it works. Leaving aside private sales for a moment, most independent dealers get stock either from trade-ins or from auction, you're not seriously suggesting that they will end up selling these cars for the same amount they paid at auction, are you?

Edited by 8bit on Tuesday 7th March 09:14

I took Stickleback's findings to mean that the prices that units actually trade hands for are more indicative to the market value than sometimes fancy pricing people ask on classified ads, this goes for both trade, retail and private sales.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that dealers shouldn't make a profit on vehicles they retail, they of course have overheads, prep and one would hope adherence to the CRA to factor into the cost, however the question I would ask as a private purchaser is if I'm willing to contribute to these extra costs

As you say, the vast majority of vehicle sales it is impossible due to the power of negotiations to figure out exactly what units are trading hands for, but with access to auction prices, trade book values and public sold prices on eBay, and the zeroing in on a handful of specialist cars and following them through from being auctioned off in a trade setting and then appearing for sale in the public market one can make a reasonable assessment to see if the market is skewed and whether or not paying a dealer (and increasingly common, a private seller) premium is in deed justified.

On what are old, reasonably specialist cars, personally I feel that the premiums asked in this day and age are way, way, WAY too much with the only way of getting a semblance of a reasonable deal is to look at trade avenues or the occasional unicorn eBay or classified ad, which quite frankly make the asking prices of some stuff seem even more inflated.

50% margins across hammer aren't unheard of compared to both retail and private asking prices, often without so much as new pictures, let alone prep. And of course in many instances these cars with ridiculous asking prices still for an age until someone is desperate enough to maybe pay it, but more often than not they don't sell, but continue to artificially skew prices upwards.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 09:52

[anonymous-user]

WorldBoss said:

8bit said:

And I don't know how many times I have to reply with this - no they absolutely cannot. Just because you put a lot of time and energy into watching auction sale values doesn't mean that's how it works. Leaving aside private sales for a moment, most independent dealers get stock either from trade-ins or from auction, you're not seriously suggesting that they will end up selling these cars for the same amount they paid at auction, are you?

Edited by 8bit on Tuesday 7th March 09:14

I took Stickleback's findings to mean that the prices that units actually trade hands for are more indicative to the market value than sometimes fancy pricing people ask on classified ads, this goes for both trade, retail and private sales.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that dealers shouldn't make a profit on vehicles they retail, they of course have overheads, prep and one would hope adherence to the CRA to factor into the cost, however the question I would ask as a private purchaser is if I'm willing to contribute to these extra costs

As you say, the vast majority of vehicle sales it is impossible due to the power of negotiations to figure out exactly what units are trading hands for, but with access to auction prices, trade book values and public sold prices on eBay, and the zeroing in on a handful of specialist cars and following them through from being auctioned off in a trade setting and then appearing for sale in the public market one can make a reasonable assessment to see if the market is skewed and whether or not paying a dealer (and increasingly common, a private seller) premium is in deed justified.

On what are old, reasonably specialist cars, personally I feel that the premiums asked in this day and age are way, way, WAY too much with the only way of getting a semblance of a reasonable deal is to look at trade avenues or the occasional unicorn eBay or classified ad, which quite frankly make the asking prices of some stuff seem even more inflated.

50% margins across hammer aren't unheard of compared to both retail and private aren't unheard of. And of course in many instances these cars with ridiculous asking prices still for an age until someone is desperate enough to maybe pay it, but more often than not they don't sell, but continue to artificially skew prices upwards.

What they said.

[8bit]

stickleback123 said:

WorldBoss said:

8bit said:

And I don't know how many times I have to reply with this - no they absolutely cannot. Just because you put a lot of time and energy into watching auction sale values doesn't mean that's how it works. Leaving aside private sales for a moment, most independent dealers get stock either from trade-ins or from auction, you're not seriously suggesting that they will end up selling these cars for the same amount they paid at auction, are you?

Edited by 8bit on Tuesday 7th March 09:14

I took Stickleback's findings to mean that the prices that units actually trade hands for are more indicative to the market value than sometimes fancy pricing people ask on classified ads, this goes for both trade, retail and private sales.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that dealers shouldn't make a profit on vehicles they retail, they of course have overheads, prep and one would hope adherence to the CRA to factor into the cost, however the question I would ask as a private purchaser is if I'm willing to contribute to these extra costs

As you say, the vast majority of vehicle sales it is impossible due to the power of negotiations to figure out exactly what units are trading hands for, but with access to auction prices, trade book values and public sold prices on eBay, and the zeroing in on a handful of specialist cars and following them through from being auctioned off in a trade setting and then appearing for sale in the public market one can make a reasonable assessment to see if the market is skewed and whether or not paying a dealer (and increasingly common, a private seller) premium is in deed justified.

On what are old, reasonably specialist cars, personally I feel that the premiums asked in this day and age are way, way, WAY too much with the only way of getting a semblance of a reasonable deal is to look at trade avenues or the occasional unicorn eBay or classified ad, which quite frankly make the asking prices of some stuff seem even more inflated.

50% margins across hammer aren't unheard of compared to both retail and private aren't unheard of. And of course in many instances these cars with ridiculous asking prices still for an age until someone is desperate enough to maybe pay it, but more often than not they don't sell, but continue to artificially skew prices upwards.

What they said.

Well quite, as WorldBoss made your point far more clearly than you did, and without having a swipe at "greedy" private sellers at every turn!

[anonymous-user]

stickleback123 said:

A 130k XK went for £3,500 last week, it needed about £400 spending on it but was a decent car.

And by magic, it has appeared!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125772241528?hash=item1...

£3,500 hammer down last weekend, £7,000 to you now without so much as new photos, the pedestrian warning system repaired, the exhaust welded back up or the seats taken out of Gangster lean position, being sold by a vendor based from a residential house who cannot be bothered to even take photos of their stock not provided free by British car auctions.

And if it wasn't egregious enough just knowing that traders are trying to get away with margins like this with clearly zero effort and prep, it is knowing the private sellers that are now going to think their slightly dog eared 121k example with a plethora of warning symbols on the dash is maybe worth £5,000 private sale if this one is listed for £7k. And perhaps a slightly nicer one that has seats that can be adjusted and no warning symbols is maybe worth £7,000? Or perhaps £10,000?
And imagine if you had a decent XKR 5.0 ? The holy grail of XKs... What's that worth? £15k? £20k? Maybe £25k? And then you get to the mess of this (and many other specialist cars I keep tabs on) market where everyone thinks that they are holding onto the next Escort Cosworth or Skyline GTR... Feck, even a Pug 205 GTI, I paid a spicy at the time £1400 for my last one in 2010... I wouldn't hope to get a genuine shell for that much now

Harsh reality check for that car above and anybody who thinks that classified ads are indicative of the market of what cars actually trade hands for; That car isn't worth the money in the state that I saw it (from just the photos on BCA, honest ) and neither is the subsequent inflation of prices that private vendors might ask as a result. That car will sit and rot as opposed to being to finding a loving home with an enthusiast who can lavish the care and attention that a slightly knackered jaguar coupe both demands and needs.

This seems to be a very UK problem; My friend in the states will not pay more than $1000 for a Jaguar, and yet still picks up XK100s (more often than not verts), V12 XJS' and series V12 Series XJs virtually every other month, running, driving and often in better states rust wise than anything you'd find in the UK for much less than 5 to 10 grand.

I'm sorry to have a bit of a rant, but its an absolute mess, and as a life long car enthusiast of very modest means I've seen myself being priced completely out of my one passion in life for nothing other than greed and it makes me very sad. No, I don't expect people to give vehicles away as a kind deed, but I'd like them to go back to pricing stuff with a semblance of reality.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 20:28

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th March 20:29

[a8hex]

WorldBoss said:

No, I don't expect people to give vehicles away as a kind deed, but I'd like them to go back to pricing stuff with a semblance of reality.

Reality is what people will pay not what you wish you were able to pay.
If the guy is able to find someone to part with £7K then that's what its worth.
It you can find one for 3 at auction then good luck to you too.
At the end of the day anything is only ever worth what someone will pay for it, if sellers don't like that they are welcome to keep it as it is obviously worth more to them.
The only time I think these discussions are a problem is when bloody insurance companies get involve and say someone's P&J is only worth X when it isn't possible to find a replacement for anything anywhere near X.