Will Jaguar survive?
Discussion
Well you used the term first not me.
Its a simple enough question. I keep an eye on the price of used Jags and they are hugely undervalued, which is bad for them but good for us if we're buying them. If you want a cheap good quality car it is imho no contest. I think prices are stiffening a little on some models.
I don't know whether used Mondeos are good value, you tell me.
Its a simple enough question. I keep an eye on the price of used Jags and they are hugely undervalued, which is bad for them but good for us if we're buying them. If you want a cheap good quality car it is imho no contest. I think prices are stiffening a little on some models.
I don't know whether used Mondeos are good value, you tell me.
Edited by The Grim Leaper on Thursday 12th April 12:15
The Grim Leaper said:
... the comment that an X-Type is just a Mondeo is one of those 'smart' urban myths.
Based on the fact that the early mules ran a Mondeo body... but you could tell by the twin exhaust pipes and rear diff...
People seem to love to knock Ford and Jag. Never understood why... when was the last time you heard a comment about a Golf / A3 being a "posh Skoda"..? Never.
Podie said:
The Grim Leaper said:
... the comment that an X-Type is just a Mondeo is one of those 'smart' urban myths.
Based on the fact that the early mules ran a Mondeo body... but you could tell by the twin exhaust pipes and rear diff...
People seem to love to knock Ford and Jag. Never understood why... when was the last time you heard a comment about a Golf / A3 being a "posh Skoda"..? Never.
It's got nowt to do with platform sharing - more with the Mondeo being a better car in several respects! Jaguar may have done a great job in making the diesel engine a lot more refined than in Ford applications, but I'm afraid the rest of the engineering changes have been a less unqualified success. I'm afraid the X-type is neither flesh nor fowl - it lacks the precision and agility to make it a driver's car, but on the other hand it lacks the sophistication, accommodation and (especially) quality to make it a cossetting luxury ride.
If the X-type is such a great car - why has it consistently been rated the runt of the litter in direct comparisons to 3-Series/A4/C-class/S60/9-3 et al for most of its production life?
With the crushing competition that's around I find it amazing to see Jaguar plodding on with an un-revamped X-type and a flabby S type in what must be the core bread and butter market for any mainstream car manufacturer.
Perhaps the question is how to steal sales from the 3 and the 5 series and the small mercedes. Because lets face it, unless they crack these markets they are always going to be struggling. Does Jaguar have a competitor to for example a 330 saloon or the new M3 or the new M5 (and don't say Stype 'R' because the latest M5 will run Nurburgrings around it!). Where is its small car offering - something like an equivalent 'A' class to match the company E class? or a '1' series that some people may think are fugly but make a lot of cash for BMW?
What about its big car offering? Can the XJ really be seen as a competitor to the new S class?
My perception of Jaguar is that it seems to be an unfocused company with an unclear and unstructured product line-up - tripping up in the coat-tails of Ford and not being strong enough to stand by itslef. Until I know it won't go belly-up next year I am not going to sink my hard-earned into it. You've seen what happened to Rover. Would you as a private buyer ?
Perhaps the question is how to steal sales from the 3 and the 5 series and the small mercedes. Because lets face it, unless they crack these markets they are always going to be struggling. Does Jaguar have a competitor to for example a 330 saloon or the new M3 or the new M5 (and don't say Stype 'R' because the latest M5 will run Nurburgrings around it!). Where is its small car offering - something like an equivalent 'A' class to match the company E class? or a '1' series that some people may think are fugly but make a lot of cash for BMW?
What about its big car offering? Can the XJ really be seen as a competitor to the new S class?
My perception of Jaguar is that it seems to be an unfocused company with an unclear and unstructured product line-up - tripping up in the coat-tails of Ford and not being strong enough to stand by itslef. Until I know it won't go belly-up next year I am not going to sink my hard-earned into it. You've seen what happened to Rover. Would you as a private buyer ?
900T-R said:
Podie said:
The Grim Leaper said:
... the comment that an X-Type is just a Mondeo is one of those 'smart' urban myths.
Based on the fact that the early mules ran a Mondeo body... but you could tell by the twin exhaust pipes and rear diff...
People seem to love to knock Ford and Jag. Never understood why... when was the last time you heard a comment about a Golf / A3 being a "posh Skoda"..? Never.
It's got nowt to do with platform sharing - more with the Mondeo being a better car in several respects! Jaguar may have done a great job in making the diesel engine a lot more refined than in Ford applications, but I'm afraid the rest of the engineering changes have been a less unqualified success. I'm afraid the X-type is neither flesh nor fowl - it lacks the precision and agility to make it a driver's car, but on the other hand it lacks the sophistication, accommodation and (especially) quality to make it a cossetting luxury ride.
If the X-type is such a great car - why has it consistently been rated the runt of the litter in direct comparisons to 3-Series/A4/C-class/S60/9-3 et al for most of its production life?
er.. easy tiger. *I* haven't made a comment about platform sharing, nor have *I* said it's a great car.
All I have said is that the "posh Mondeo" tag came from the development stage, and that people like to knock FMC/Jag, yet don't apply the same "logic" to VAG products.
The X-Type is a good car, but there are better cars out there - IMO.
Edited by Podie on Thursday 12th April 15:32
I started this thread because I wanted to see the reaction and boy - you've reacted both for and against. As far as the X type is concerned I'm not concerned that it may or may not be Mondeo based, I'm more concerned that so many wrong decisions have come from Ford that have led to Jaguar sales falling. Years back I was at Browns Lane and they were furious that the new XJ6 (at the time), fully signed off, was suddenly vetoed by a Ford bigwig and they had to start the design again. As far as the X type is concerned it has no auto box and most Jaguars have traditionally been autos - yet the Mondeo diesel is available in auto. Going further it took Jaguar a long time to bring a diesel out and this hurt enormously in mainland Europe where diesels account for the majority of sales. Ford took Jaguar into Formula One with a lousy budget and brought Aston Martin to Le Mans - then sold Aston. It is the lack of cohesion and logic to so many of their decisions that leads me to ask the question as to whether Jaguar, in the long term, has a future.
Look at makes that were once famous and exist no more; Rover was once a proud marque that rivalled Jaguar with it's bigger cars, Bentley is now an up market VW, Rolls Royce a BMW but at least they survive and make money. Auto Union, NSU, let alone such makes as Delahaye and so on exist no more. Nothing is sacrosanct, and Ford are in trouble - big time. Jaguar will probably survive, but in my humble opinion as either a Korean or Chinese brand in the end.
Look at makes that were once famous and exist no more; Rover was once a proud marque that rivalled Jaguar with it's bigger cars, Bentley is now an up market VW, Rolls Royce a BMW but at least they survive and make money. Auto Union, NSU, let alone such makes as Delahaye and so on exist no more. Nothing is sacrosanct, and Ford are in trouble - big time. Jaguar will probably survive, but in my humble opinion as either a Korean or Chinese brand in the end.
lowdrag said:
I started this thread because I wanted to see the reaction and boy - you've reacted both for and against. As far as the X type is concerned I'm not concerned that it may or may not be Mondeo based, I'm more concerned that so many wrong decisions have come from Ford that have led to Jaguar sales falling. Years back I was at Browns Lane and they were furious that the new XJ6 (at the time), fully signed off, was suddenly vetoed by a Ford bigwig and they had to start the design again. As far as the X type is concerned it has no auto box and most Jaguars have traditionally been autos - yet the Mondeo diesel is available in auto. Going further it took Jaguar a long time to bring a diesel out and this hurt enormously in mainland Europe where diesels account for the majority of sales. Ford took Jaguar into Formula One with a lousy budget and brought Aston Martin to Le Mans - then sold Aston. It is the lack of cohesion and logic to so many of their decisions that leads me to ask the question as to whether Jaguar, in the long term, has a future.
Look at makes that were once famous and exist no more; Rover was once a proud marque that rivalled Jaguar with it's bigger cars, Bentley is now an up market VW, Rolls Royce a BMW but at least they survive and make money. Auto Union, NSU, let alone such makes as Delahaye and so on exist no more. Nothing is sacrosanct, and Ford are in trouble - big time. Jaguar will probably survive, but in my humble opinion as either a Korean or Chinese brand in the end.
Look at makes that were once famous and exist no more; Rover was once a proud marque that rivalled Jaguar with it's bigger cars, Bentley is now an up market VW, Rolls Royce a BMW but at least they survive and make money. Auto Union, NSU, let alone such makes as Delahaye and so on exist no more. Nothing is sacrosanct, and Ford are in trouble - big time. Jaguar will probably survive, but in my humble opinion as either a Korean or Chinese brand in the end.
I believe people are underestimating both Ford & GM's turnaround. I feel they will thrive again. I also feel that Jaguar will remain with them and become focused and profitable again.
lowdrag said:
I started this thread because I wanted to see the reaction and boy - you've reacted both for and against. As far as the X type is concerned I'm not concerned that it may or may not be Mondeo based, I'm more concerned that so many wrong decisions have come from Ford that have led to Jaguar sales falling. Years back I was at Browns Lane and they were furious that the new XJ6 (at the time), fully signed off, was suddenly vetoed by a Ford bigwig and they had to start the design again. As far as the X type is concerned it has no auto box and most Jaguars have traditionally been autos - yet the Mondeo diesel is available in auto. Going further it took Jaguar a long time to bring a diesel out and this hurt enormously in mainland Europe where diesels account for the majority of sales. Ford took Jaguar into Formula One with a lousy budget and brought Aston Martin to Le Mans - then sold Aston. It is the lack of cohesion and logic to so many of their decisions that leads me to ask the question as to whether Jaguar, in the long term, has a future.
Look at makes that were once famous and exist no more; Rover was once a proud marque that rivalled Jaguar with it's bigger cars, Bentley is now an up market VW, Rolls Royce a BMW but at least they survive and make money. Auto Union, NSU, let alone such makes as Delahaye and so on exist no more. Nothing is sacrosanct, and Ford are in trouble - big time. Jaguar will probably survive, but in my humble opinion as either a Korean or Chinese brand in the end.
Look at makes that were once famous and exist no more; Rover was once a proud marque that rivalled Jaguar with it's bigger cars, Bentley is now an up market VW, Rolls Royce a BMW but at least they survive and make money. Auto Union, NSU, let alone such makes as Delahaye and so on exist no more. Nothing is sacrosanct, and Ford are in trouble - big time. Jaguar will probably survive, but in my humble opinion as either a Korean or Chinese brand in the end.
Come on...
Are you not going to give Ford any credit at all for the massive investment in new models, technology, engines, facilities, quality improvenments, etc for the last nearly 20 years! Also whilst the outer clothing of the current Jags (XK excepted) are not marketable, there is very little wrong with the engineering underneath.
Yes there has been some mighty
-ups, and whilst a lot is attributable to Ford, there is a significant element that is Jaguar's fault (resistance to diesel engines was theirs for a long time, some of the design direction, and I might get shot for this but some of the past quality issues were too!) And as for the future, why-o-why do people forget about the Land Rover connection, which is massive.
Edited by wheeljack on Thursday 12th April 21:30
Jimbeaux said:
I believe people are underestimating both Ford & GM's turnaround. I feel they will thrive again. I also feel that Jaguar will remain with them and become focused and profitable again.
Really... on what grounds..? FMC have been in financial trouble stateside for a while. Look back over the years and either US or Europe has done well enough to carry the Company - not the case in recent years. The rating agencies continue to reduce the credit ratings of the Company, despite claimed imrpovements, in fact they're at junk bond status. The turnaround strategy hasn't delivered thus far, in fact last year a $12.1b loss was posted...
Podie said:
Jimbeaux said:
I believe people are underestimating both Ford & GM's turnaround. I feel they will thrive again. I also feel that Jaguar will remain with them and become focused and profitable again.
Really... on what grounds..? FMC have been in financial trouble stateside for a while. Look back over the years and either US or Europe has done well enough to carry the Company - not the case in recent years. The rating agencies continue to reduce the credit ratings of the Company, despite claimed imrpovements, in fact they're at junk bond status. The turnaround strategy hasn't delivered thus far, in fact last year a $12.1b loss was posted...
Their plan did not call for a profit until a certain future time. However, the benefit package buyouts, etc. that will bring the company employees in line with other car companies (meaning less generous packages) is going quicker than planned. The same with GM.
Jimbeaux said:
Their plan did not call for a profit until a certain future time. However, the benefit package buyouts, etc. that will bring the company employees in line with other car companies (meaning less generous packages) is going quicker than planned. The same with GM.
Appreciate the plan not calling for a profit until a certain time, but FMC's first 5 year plan did not come to fruition...
Although GM are in a similar state, they have not finished their turnaround strategy, hence are viewed somewhat more favourably.
Feeling optimistic Podie? 
It really does look crap at the moment and guessing it will do for a long time. But I personally know some of the investment in future products that is going on both sides of the pond and there is very good stuff on the way. Perhaps some hope and certainly not going out without a fight. Also, although I'm always uncertain about how much one man can make a difference, Mullaly appears to be several classes above the showers that have run the place before.
Give us a shout some time.
It really does look crap at the moment and guessing it will do for a long time. But I personally know some of the investment in future products that is going on both sides of the pond and there is very good stuff on the way. Perhaps some hope and certainly not going out without a fight. Also, although I'm always uncertain about how much one man can make a difference, Mullaly appears to be several classes above the showers that have run the place before.
Give us a shout some time.
wheeljack said:
Feeling optimistic Podie?
It really does look crap at the moment and guessing it will do for a long time. But I personally know some of the investment in future products that is going on both sides of the pond and there is very good stuff on the way. Perhaps some hope and certainly not going out without a fight. Also, although I'm always uncertain about how much one man can make a difference, Mullaly appears to be several classes above the showers that have run the place before.
Give us a shout some time.
It really does look crap at the moment and guessing it will do for a long time. But I personally know some of the investment in future products that is going on both sides of the pond and there is very good stuff on the way. Perhaps some hope and certainly not going out without a fight. Also, although I'm always uncertain about how much one man can make a difference, Mullaly appears to be several classes above the showers that have run the place before.
Give us a shout some time.
Bad week... Saw the refreshed C-Max yesterday - looks good. Not convinced on the new Mondeo in ghia trim, although Titanium looks nice. Seen a lot on the A127 of late...
Agree with your opinion of Mullaly...
Must meet up for a cheeky beverage sometime.
Hopeful, but still not convinced. If Aston was the profit maker, and Jaguar the loss maker, why on earth sell a marque that sells a Jaguar at twice the price and keep the other? Somewhere along the line there is some strange thinking going on at top level. We know that Ford makes the fastest selling vehicle in the world (F150 truck) but if you've seen one it is crap, and frankly what seems needed is that the Jaguar management take over at Dearborn.
lowdrag said:
Hopeful, but still not convinced. If Aston was the profit maker, and Jaguar the loss maker, why on earth sell a marque that sells a Jaguar at twice the price and keep the other?
It's easier to sell something that makes a profit, than something that makes a loss...
lowdrag said:
We know that Ford makes the fastest selling vehicle in the world (F150 truck) but if you've seen one it is crap...
Which is why the Jap trucks are killing the Detroit three market Stateside...
lowdrag said:
and frankly what seems needed is that the Jaguar management take over at Dearborn.
Not sure how much of it is true... but here goes...
When "Uncle Nick" took over Jaguar he apparently implimented Ford's own quality systems. The difference being that he followed them to the letter, rather than the "that'll do" approach...
lowdrag said:
HIf Aston was the profit maker, and Jaguar the loss maker, why on earth sell a marque that sells a Jaguar at twice the price and keep the other?
Because Aston are a niche brand, with only 5000 sales (aiming for 9000), Jag (and LR as they are too entwined to be seen as seperate) can have a huge market share across all continents. I look forward to the XF and XJ replacement. I expect the TDV8 from LR to appear in all Jags at some point XF, XJ, XK.
I was in my X today and came along side the new 3 series coupe and thought the X is a long way behind the competition now with 'looks' but still feel there is some go left yet................
G
wheeljack said:
Feeling optimistic Podie?
It really does look crap at the moment and guessing it will do for a long time. But I personally know some of the investment in future products that is going on both sides of the pond and there is very good stuff on the way. Perhaps some hope and certainly not going out without a fight. Also, although I'm always uncertain about how much one man can make a difference, Mullaly appears to be several classes above the showers that have run the place before.
Give us a shout some time.
It really does look crap at the moment and guessing it will do for a long time. But I personally know some of the investment in future products that is going on both sides of the pond and there is very good stuff on the way. Perhaps some hope and certainly not going out without a fight. Also, although I'm always uncertain about how much one man can make a difference, Mullaly appears to be several classes above the showers that have run the place before.
Give us a shout some time.
True on Mullaly, he is said to have been great for Boeing.
lowdrag said:
Hopeful, but still not convinced. If Aston was the profit maker, and Jaguar the loss maker, why on earth sell a marque that sells a Jaguar at twice the price and keep the other? Somewhere along the line there is some strange thinking going on at top level. We know that Ford makes the fastest selling vehicle in the world (F150 truck) but if you've seen one it is crap, and frankly what seems needed is that the Jaguar management take over at Dearborn.
The F-150 comers in many levels of kit. They are far from crap. Compared to cars, they are different in application and feel, but nor crap. Most F-150 owners regularly see 200-300K miles of HARD driving from their trucks. My Lariat model has everything from top grain leather seating to auto-adjustable pedals to heated mirrors....in a P/U truck. What do you base your opinion upon? Jag management at Dearborn?? If they were that good, they would not have needed to be bought up in the first place.
Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 13th April 17:12
Gassing Station | Jaguar | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff