Will Jaguar survive?
Discussion
There has been much posted about the closure and sell off of Brown's Lane, but surely the question should be, can Jaguar survive at all? Successive moves by Ford leave severe questions on the viability of the marque.
Ford went into Formula 1 because it had the biggest viewing audiences with a very limited budget - $150 million compared at the time to Ferrari's $700 million. No contest there! Bad image for Jaguar and a quick withdrawal.
Jaguar's history is in the Sarthe, endurance racing, but Ford chose to come back with Aston Martin (OK, Le Mans history yes but only one win in 1959 compared to Jaguars glorious history in the 50's and 80's) purely because an Aston is a Jaguar at twice the price so a bigger profit margin on each car sold. Then they sell Aston!
The JD Power survey in the USA perplexes me since Jaguar come out extremely well whereas over in Europe the reliability issue is one that constantly raises its head when talking to owners.
However, for some the biggest problem is the Ford one. Toyota created a completely separate marque with Lexus to differentiate and it worked, but, unkind as it is, people refer to the X type as the "up market Mondeo". The Jaguar name is to some extent tainted by the Ford association.
It has to be said though that they made one of the biggest mistakes with the X type diesel. Most Jaguars have always been sold with an auto box but there isn't room in the X type so if you want an auto diesel you have to buy the Mondeo!
The big car market is shrinking. Ford, like Vauxhall, dropped their big Scorpio because they couldn't compete just as the Senator couldn't. VW have had the same problem with the Phaeton - badge snobbery when a Bentley is the same car at twice the price. Ford bought Jaguar at an obscene price and have deeply invested but the dollar/pound means that the marque is far too dear over there unless they lose money on each car sold.
The car market will inevitably shrink more as time goes by and it will be survival of the fittest and Ford surely aren't fit. Will we see a Chinese or Korean Jaguar in the end? I wouldn't take bets against it. I'll be interested to see your replies, but no knee jerk reactions. We all want Jaguar to survive but it is a question of how.
Ford went into Formula 1 because it had the biggest viewing audiences with a very limited budget - $150 million compared at the time to Ferrari's $700 million. No contest there! Bad image for Jaguar and a quick withdrawal.
Jaguar's history is in the Sarthe, endurance racing, but Ford chose to come back with Aston Martin (OK, Le Mans history yes but only one win in 1959 compared to Jaguars glorious history in the 50's and 80's) purely because an Aston is a Jaguar at twice the price so a bigger profit margin on each car sold. Then they sell Aston!
The JD Power survey in the USA perplexes me since Jaguar come out extremely well whereas over in Europe the reliability issue is one that constantly raises its head when talking to owners.
However, for some the biggest problem is the Ford one. Toyota created a completely separate marque with Lexus to differentiate and it worked, but, unkind as it is, people refer to the X type as the "up market Mondeo". The Jaguar name is to some extent tainted by the Ford association.
It has to be said though that they made one of the biggest mistakes with the X type diesel. Most Jaguars have always been sold with an auto box but there isn't room in the X type so if you want an auto diesel you have to buy the Mondeo!
The big car market is shrinking. Ford, like Vauxhall, dropped their big Scorpio because they couldn't compete just as the Senator couldn't. VW have had the same problem with the Phaeton - badge snobbery when a Bentley is the same car at twice the price. Ford bought Jaguar at an obscene price and have deeply invested but the dollar/pound means that the marque is far too dear over there unless they lose money on each car sold.
The car market will inevitably shrink more as time goes by and it will be survival of the fittest and Ford surely aren't fit. Will we see a Chinese or Korean Jaguar in the end? I wouldn't take bets against it. I'll be interested to see your replies, but no knee jerk reactions. We all want Jaguar to survive but it is a question of how.
[quote=lowdrag]
It has to be said though that they made one of the biggest mistakes with the X type diesel. Most Jaguars have always been sold with an auto box but there isn't room in the X type so if you want an auto diesel you have to buy the Mondeo!
quote]
Quite Frankly - this is b0ll0xs. First off - The engine bay package of the 2.0 & 2.2L Puma engine is practically identical in both the X-type and Mondeo applications. Drive Diesel engined X-Types and you'll realise just how much development has been put in to make the Puma unit suitable for application in a Jaguar (Particularly Drivability & NVH). The reason an Auto hasn't been offered (to date
) is that the Jatco 5-speeder in the Mondeo had been deemed inappropriate for use in a Jag. i.e it is a poor Auto box from a point of view of shift quality/reilability + only 5spd when the market is demanding 6 spd. As you are well aware, Jaguar isn't cash rich at the moment, and so develoment of a bespoke Auto wasn't viable and Auto development of the diesel X has been stymied until a suitable transmission has been made available via other Ford programmes.
Secondly - Whilst X-type has stretched Jaguar and caused capacity (overheads) issues, can you imagine the footfall through dealerships if it hadn't happened, it accounts for 45% of Jaguar's volume?. For some, X-type, particularly the US buyers - it is the first taste of Jaguar that has resulted in repeat purchase or shifting up the range within the brand.
The whole X-Type isn't a true Jaguar statement is wholly applicable to those that haven't driven or owned one. I can't see the same rationale being used with regard to Skoda Octavia and Audi A4 platform sharing
It has to be said though that they made one of the biggest mistakes with the X type diesel. Most Jaguars have always been sold with an auto box but there isn't room in the X type so if you want an auto diesel you have to buy the Mondeo!
quote]
Quite Frankly - this is b0ll0xs. First off - The engine bay package of the 2.0 & 2.2L Puma engine is practically identical in both the X-type and Mondeo applications. Drive Diesel engined X-Types and you'll realise just how much development has been put in to make the Puma unit suitable for application in a Jaguar (Particularly Drivability & NVH). The reason an Auto hasn't been offered (to date
) is that the Jatco 5-speeder in the Mondeo had been deemed inappropriate for use in a Jag. i.e it is a poor Auto box from a point of view of shift quality/reilability + only 5spd when the market is demanding 6 spd. As you are well aware, Jaguar isn't cash rich at the moment, and so develoment of a bespoke Auto wasn't viable and Auto development of the diesel X has been stymied until a suitable transmission has been made available via other Ford programmes. Secondly - Whilst X-type has stretched Jaguar and caused capacity (overheads) issues, can you imagine the footfall through dealerships if it hadn't happened, it accounts for 45% of Jaguar's volume?. For some, X-type, particularly the US buyers - it is the first taste of Jaguar that has resulted in repeat purchase or shifting up the range within the brand.
The whole X-Type isn't a true Jaguar statement is wholly applicable to those that haven't driven or owned one. I can't see the same rationale being used with regard to Skoda Octavia and Audi A4 platform sharing
Nothing anyone says here will make the slightest bit of difference to the product for the next 5 years, and it will take much longer for any fundamental changes. They are making the best of their relationship with LR by sharing investment, but there is only so much time (and people) to do these things.
They have what they have and they have to make the best of it. Jaguar know that the new XF is shit-or-bust and in many ways they have nothing to lose. I've seen the new XF and I know the spec (esp. powertrain), IMHO Jag are going for it!
If the XF doesn't work then that is it! All the technology & facilities will be transfered to Ford/LR, what they don't want will be closed, and the name will probably be sold to the Chinese to be put on some bad fwd Lexus knock-off.
So what they need is some patience and some pragmatic understanding. None of this retarded Ford snobbery (always prejudiced crap from non-engineers). No picking over the bones over decisions that were made over a decade ago that Jag are having to live with now. No BS about diesels when over 50% of the large car market in Europe demands it. No pining for the F-type. And definitely none of this hysterical media BS from over-zealous journalists about the future of Jag.
Of course I don't expect this to make the blindest bit of difference. I've had my say now!
They have what they have and they have to make the best of it. Jaguar know that the new XF is shit-or-bust and in many ways they have nothing to lose. I've seen the new XF and I know the spec (esp. powertrain), IMHO Jag are going for it!
If the XF doesn't work then that is it! All the technology & facilities will be transfered to Ford/LR, what they don't want will be closed, and the name will probably be sold to the Chinese to be put on some bad fwd Lexus knock-off.
So what they need is some patience and some pragmatic understanding. None of this retarded Ford snobbery (always prejudiced crap from non-engineers). No picking over the bones over decisions that were made over a decade ago that Jag are having to live with now. No BS about diesels when over 50% of the large car market in Europe demands it. No pining for the F-type. And definitely none of this hysterical media BS from over-zealous journalists about the future of Jag.
Of course I don't expect this to make the blindest bit of difference. I've had my say now!
Apologies if I seem harsh but the constant negativity surrounding Jag in the media and on-here does grate after a while!
Edited by wheeljack on Wednesday 4th April 11:01
lowdrag said:
The JD Power survey in the USA perplexes me since Jaguar come out extremely well whereas over in Europe the reliability issue is one that constantly raises its head when talking to owners.
I thought the XJ had done extremely well in the JD Power surveys over here too, although it has been years since I looked at one. I though the X300 had won it one year.
If you read back through this forum you'll find postings about Jaguar having won a German Car Mag's quality award last year. (See Phil's posting of the 14/09/06 and others). The best German manufacturer was Porsche and they came 7th. I can't quickly spot the other articles about this but I don't think any of the other German firms made the top 10.
For most owners Jaguar quality problems are a thing of the past. Yes in the 70s and early 80s they might have been the pits. Post Ford Jaguars on the whole have not. OK so there was the narsil episode, but Jaguar were hardly the only manufacturer to suffer this problem. I suspect that most owners had this problem sorted under warrantee reading some of the posts here where people are checking prospective purchases they are finding that the engine was changed and the previous owner didn't even know.
I've had a couple of chats with Jaguar salesmen recently where they are asking when I'm going to change my XJ and I've said, well when it needs changing. They've then said they are here this a lot now. The damn things aren't wearing out so many owners aren't replacing there cars as often.
[
The whole X-Type isn't a true Jaguar statement is wholly applicable to those that haven't driven or owned one. I can't see the same rationale being used with regard to Skoda Octavia and Audi A4 platform sharing[/quote]
That'll be because the A4 and the Octavia don't platform share.
The whole X-Type isn't a true Jaguar statement is wholly applicable to those that haven't driven or owned one. I can't see the same rationale being used with regard to Skoda Octavia and Audi A4 platform sharing
[/quote] That'll be because the A4 and the Octavia don't platform share.
neelyp said:
fwdracer said:
The whole X-Type isn't a true Jaguar statement is wholly applicable to those that haven't driven or owned one. I can't see the same rationale being used with regard to Skoda Octavia and Audi A4 platform sharing
That'll be because the A4 and the Octavia don't platform share.
No the Octavia shares the platform with the Golf and according to the (?ex?) boss of Audi is the better built one.
It's the "Superb" that shares it's platform with the A4 isn't it?
The last Passat used to share the front of it's platform with the then current A4, but it shared the back half with the A6, coz the A4's one was deemed too shite. No idea what the current ones use, but they'll share almost everything as usual.
The fact it all the large car making groups do it. Just some of them don't get the grief from the UK media that others do.
The Octavia is a Golf platform and the Skoda Superb a Passat base but elongated 30cms to give more room in the back seat. The car was designed for the Chinese like that originally.
As regards the comments about the auto box not being available, I spent a lot of time looking into this several years back and at first was fobbed off by dealers saying no one wanted an auto box on a diesel. In the end I was informed by the factory that there wasn't room for an auto box due to the size of the engine so that's where I got it from - the horses mouth. I don't think it has anything to do with it being a JATCO auto box at all, although from all I read these haven't proved terribly reliable either. I understand though that the new model will be available with an auto diesel - at last. Incidentally, I wonder why it seems only to be the German manufacturers who offer diesel autos? Mazda don't, nor Honda, and to change my car I seem to be forced to buy German again. I have an old Mercedes C class at the moment and fancied a change. Now an X type four wheel drive diesel auto would be perfect for towing the trailer and race car.
As regards the comments about the auto box not being available, I spent a lot of time looking into this several years back and at first was fobbed off by dealers saying no one wanted an auto box on a diesel. In the end I was informed by the factory that there wasn't room for an auto box due to the size of the engine so that's where I got it from - the horses mouth. I don't think it has anything to do with it being a JATCO auto box at all, although from all I read these haven't proved terribly reliable either. I understand though that the new model will be available with an auto diesel - at last. Incidentally, I wonder why it seems only to be the German manufacturers who offer diesel autos? Mazda don't, nor Honda, and to change my car I seem to be forced to buy German again. I have an old Mercedes C class at the moment and fancied a change. Now an X type four wheel drive diesel auto would be perfect for towing the trailer and race car.
10 years ago I wouldn't believe I was goign to say this, but what Jaguar really need is the management from Alfa Romeo...
Can the marketing budget and spend it putting into production a car which you know will sell and benefit the marque.
It's too late now, but Jag should have bineed the 'Gorgeous' campaign and the one before that and not bothered with F1, then put the F-type into production instead.
Can the marketing budget and spend it putting into production a car which you know will sell and benefit the marque.
It's too late now, but Jag should have bineed the 'Gorgeous' campaign and the one before that and not bothered with F1, then put the F-type into production instead.
Edited by groomi on Thursday 5th April 08:54
Personally, I think the problem with the X-Type is twofold: firstly it looks like a shrunken cartoon version of a trad Jag saloon, and apart from that being not so attractive for the upwardly mobile thirtysomethings they were aiming at, the proportions just don't work. The XJ's looks have been 'classic' or old-fashioned depending on your perspective for the last decade or two, but at the same time it always had een certain menace about them because they're long, low and wide. The X-Type is neither and as a result looks about as contrived as a Beetle on a Golf platform...
The more pertinent issue is, however, that the Mondeo in many respects is the better car - which became rather obvious when - after the initial forecasts for the AWD V6 petrol models turned out to be a bit on the optimistic side - the FWD, four cylinder diesels came to the market allowing direct comparison.
The more pertinent issue is, however, that the Mondeo in many respects is the better car - which became rather obvious when - after the initial forecasts for the AWD V6 petrol models turned out to be a bit on the optimistic side - the FWD, four cylinder diesels came to the market allowing direct comparison.
900T-R said:
Personally, I think the problem with the X-Type is twofold: firstly it looks like a shrunken cartoon version of a trad Jag saloon, and apart from that being not so attractive for the upwardly mobile thirtysomethings they were aiming at, the proportions just don't work. The XJ's looks have been 'classic' or old-fashioned depending on your perspective for the last decade or two, but at the same time it always had een certain menace about them because they're long, low and wide. The X-Type is neither and as a result looks about as contrived as a Beetle on a Golf platform...
The more pertinent issue is, however, that the Mondeo in many respects is the better car - which became rather obvious when - after the initial forecasts for the AWD V6 petrol models turned out to be a bit on the optimistic side - the FWD, four cylinder diesels came to the market allowing direct comparison.
The more pertinent issue is, however, that the Mondeo in many respects is the better car - which became rather obvious when - after the initial forecasts for the AWD V6 petrol models turned out to be a bit on the optimistic side - the FWD, four cylinder diesels came to the market allowing direct comparison.
Perhaps.
The X-Type, Mondeo and Volvo V40/V50 directly compete with eachother - something VAG have managed to avoid somewhat by having a clearer marketing / pricing structure with Audi, VW, SEAT and Skoda.
Jag has always been under Aston's shadow within PAG. Vehicles weren't built, as they didn't want to compete - hopefully that may now change.
The other is the fickle nature of the buying public. When Jag announed diesel engines and estates there was outcry... yet when BMW ( "The Ultimate Driving machine" ) did the same they were gladly received by the public and press alike.
Edited by Podie on Thursday 5th April 09:16
Can Jag survive, I'm sure of it, but nothings ever certain is it. Now Aston has gone, there hopefully will be no glass ceiling and we can get the 500BHP XKR-R out next year and the XFR-R too. The X is going to battle on I hear, why not, it will be too expensive just to pull the plug and does provide a key amount of cash flow for the company which is a lifeblood. Also it is a great car IMHO, go see and drive!
The XJ is a bore, even worse than now the face-lift model is coming out. There is a gorgeous 'Portfolio' edition at my local dealer, it is a fine looking motor, but the fact it has sat there, unregistered, for over 6 months tells you something!
So new XK, XF and the good ole X should keep the company afloat, maybe its time for a SUV afterall????
As for the reliabiltity debate, I have just been thinking its perception, if your toyota breaks down, you think oh dear thats very unusual, if a Jagh has a problem, its coz its a Jag and that gets spread by people. The consumer serveys tell the real storey, they are great cars these days, so enuff of that!
G
The XJ is a bore, even worse than now the face-lift model is coming out. There is a gorgeous 'Portfolio' edition at my local dealer, it is a fine looking motor, but the fact it has sat there, unregistered, for over 6 months tells you something!
So new XK, XF and the good ole X should keep the company afloat, maybe its time for a SUV afterall????
As for the reliabiltity debate, I have just been thinking its perception, if your toyota breaks down, you think oh dear thats very unusual, if a Jagh has a problem, its coz its a Jag and that gets spread by people. The consumer serveys tell the real storey, they are great cars these days, so enuff of that!
G
Why compete with another PAG product? I think the worsed thing Jaguar did was not to put the F-type into production. Theres a market for small fan open two seaters so why are they not building one? I'm a huge jaguar fan but don't think they built anything i'd want between 1975 and when ever the XK8 came out.
Also why are they so against manuals? i enjoy driving and want a manual car which i don't think Jaguar do. This to me is one of the few things which stops me even considering an XK8
Hopefully now ford have sold aston martin it would be nice to see the XKR being an aston rival (with a manual option)
Also why are they so against manuals? i enjoy driving and want a manual car which i don't think Jaguar do. This to me is one of the few things which stops me even considering an XK8
Hopefully now ford have sold aston martin it would be nice to see the XKR being an aston rival (with a manual option)
The New Ford CEO, the man who has a great reputation as the former Boeing boss, made a statement the other day. He said that Ford has fixed the quality problems and has led Jaguar to the top of the build ratings. He further stated that Jaguar has presented a solid plan to fix the appeal to customers that has been lacking. He said that Ford will back them in their new plan and that Jag will be taking off. Encouraging words; let's see how it turns out.
m3pilot said:
I think the worsed thing Jaguar did was not to put the F-type into production. Theres a market for small fan open two seaters so why are they not building one? I'm a huge jaguar fan but don't think they built anything i'd want between 1975 and when ever the XK8 came out.
Also why are they so against manuals? i enjoy driving and want a manual car which i don't think Jaguar do. This to me is one of the few things which stops me even considering an XK8
Hopefully now ford have sold aston martin it would be nice to see the XKR being an aston rival (with a manual option)
Also why are they so against manuals? i enjoy driving and want a manual car which i don't think Jaguar do. This to me is one of the few things which stops me even considering an XK8
Hopefully now ford have sold aston martin it would be nice to see the XKR being an aston rival (with a manual option)
Just remember that most Jags are sold to people who prefer automatics so the volumes likely to be sold makes fitting a manual gearbox more costly than an automatic, especially after you need to retail it for less money.
If anyone who doesn't like auto boxes hasn't tried the new XKR go and try it, I always thought I'd never buy a performance car with an auto box but I did, had the new XKR for nearly two weeks now, just past the 1000 mile mark. The gearbox is awesome, tootling around in D is great, very smooth and comfy then when you're in the mood for a blast switch it over to sport flick a paddle and away you go, a very smooth very fast manual gearchange, brilliant! I really don't miss having the traditional manual box at all.
John.
John.
Look, boyo, the comment that an X-Type is just a Mondeo is one of those 'smart' urban myths. Drive one then the other and then tell us which you would prefer. There is a big difference. Sure they may share major parts but so f_____g what? Its like saying a Bentley CGT is just a VW Phaeton. In yours dreams. I think the Mondeo is a very good car, but again, so what. The X-Type is a great car, and if I didn't already have bigger faster ones I'd buy one in a flash.
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