Audi A4 Turbo. Oil pump died.

Audi A4 Turbo. Oil pump died.

Author
Discussion

g_stacey

Original Poster:

642 posts

235 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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Pump gave up really quick, engine sounded like a tractor. This (should be, car booked in for repair next week) be covered under a warranty. Obviously stopped the car as soon as I could, but what and how will a garage know what other engine damage might have happened?
Thanks.
G.

phumy

5,678 posts

239 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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Maybe they will actually take a look scratchchin

Dr G

15,244 posts

244 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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With this sort of failure if the oil's full of swarf (probably will be) it's a safer bet to get rid of it and start again.

Spun bearings tend to fill the rest of the engine with iron filings which it is very, very difficult to get rid of 100%.

Tame Technician

2,467 posts

206 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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What year/model is it please??

g_stacey

Original Poster:

642 posts

235 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
quotequote all
04. 1.8 Turbo Quattro Avant.

Thanks.
G.

Tame Technician

2,467 posts

206 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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Those engines are pretty robust, if there run with no oil pressure for a minute of so, normally the turbo is damaged and the rest of the engine is ok, sometimes the bearings for the camshafts do fail and the cams seize and you need a cylinder head, very unusually to get bottom end damage unless its driven 'til it stops.

Not sure what warranty it is on an 04 car, if it was an actually Audi one (audi approved used car warranty), would probably cover the cost of strip down for inspection + replacement if required.

If not most likely they will replace the oil pump and see what it sounds like, maybe do the turbo is its noisey or evidenct of damage. Most warranties dont cover main dealer labour rates and have a maximum claim value which would unlikely stretch to the oil pump and the turbo.

But to be honist if you keyed it off within a few seconds of seeing the oil light, will probably be abosultly fine, no damage at all and just need a new pump. We have see many like this, car has had a new pump and engine gone on trouble free for tens of thousands of miles.

istoo

2,365 posts

204 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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my 1.8T did something similar, laid of the throttle the instant i heard the tractor noise (i had blown a turbo 2 years previously) left for 30 minutes gnawing my hand, started it ready to switch off immediately but it came good again in a few seconds.

In my case it transpired to be the the pickup in the sump, it was utterly clogged. I would certainly replace/ have a look at that.

g_stacey

Original Poster:

642 posts

235 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
quotequote all
istoo said:
my 1.8T did something similar, laid of the throttle the instant i heard the tractor noise (i had blown a turbo 2 years previously) left for 30 minutes gnawing my hand, started it ready to switch off immediately but it came good again in a few seconds.

In my case it transpired to be the the pickup in the sump, it was utterly clogged. I would certainly replace/ have a look at that.
Tame Technician said:
Those engines are pretty robust, if there run with no oil pressure for a minute of so, normally the turbo is damaged and the rest of the engine is ok, sometimes the bearings for the camshafts do fail and the cams seize and you need a cylinder head, very unusually to get bottom end damage unless its driven 'til it stops.

Not sure what warranty it is on an 04 car, if it was an actually Audi one (audi approved used car warranty), would probably cover the cost of strip down for inspection + replacement if required.

If not most likely they will replace the oil pump and see what it sounds like, maybe do the turbo is its noisey or evidenct of damage. Most warranties dont cover main dealer labour rates and have a maximum claim value which would unlikely stretch to the oil pump and the turbo.

But to be honist if you keyed it off within a few seconds of seeing the oil light, will probably be abosultly fine, no damage at all and just need a new pump. We have see many like this, car has had a new pump and engine gone on trouble free for tens of thousands of miles.
Thanks for reply's. Car is under a RAC warrntey I purchased when I bought the car from a dealer 8 months ago. Think from memory it has a limit of £1500. I'll post the outcome back soon!
G.

naffa

388 posts

200 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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I had a friend with a '51' plate A4 1.8 turbo. The oil pump failed while his wife was driving it up the M1 from London.
The cams seized and the repair bill was circa £2.5k
After some hassle Audi ackonowledged that they were aware of an oil pump weakness. Again after lots of pressure Audi agreed to contribute a significant amount towards the repair costs which included new oil pump, camshafts and cylinder head.
18 months later the genuine oil pump failed but this time without such catastrophic consequences. Guess who ended up paying the bill? Not my mate but Audi. Again.

This is nothing against |Audi as my mate went on to buy a 55 A4 and I myself own one.

Iain328

12,370 posts

208 months

Wednesday 20th January 2010
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VAG 1.8 Turbos are also prone to sludging. The oil pump pickup is covered in a fine gauze & it gets blocked with the inevitable results. They really don't have much oil in them (only around 4 litres) which is possibly at the route of the problem. Therefore you need to use good oil & change it regularly.

If the pump really has failed there may be an underlying reason other than just "pump failure"

There has been a "class action" suit against Audi about this in the States running for a few years now.

Barkychoc

7,848 posts

206 months

Monday 25th January 2010
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Sorry to resurrect this but I just found this thread -

My wifes 1.8T 04 Cab rattles when started from cold for a couple of seconds, should I be worried?
It is still under warranty but non audi so labour rate is limited.

Iain328

12,370 posts

208 months

Monday 25th January 2010
quotequote all
Barkychoc said:
Sorry to resurrect this but I just found this thread -

My wifes 1.8T 04 Cab rattles when started from cold for a couple of seconds, should I be worried?
It is still under warranty but non audi so labour rate is limited.
"They all do that" (to an extent). Assuming the engine design is the same as the earlier 1.8Ts there is a cambelt that drives the exhaust cam & then a chain at the back of the head that links that to the inlet cam. That rattle is usually the cam chain tensioner before it gets filled with oil. You only worry about it if it doesn't stop!

Greg M

81 posts

173 months

Monday 25th January 2010
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Hi, first post and it's gonna be one of use! Yay!

Anyway, back on topic - my 04 A4 1.8T has just had a new oil pump and pick up. It's been rattling for in excess of 9 months and Audi's response when I asked them to fault find in March 09 (at the time of the 80k service) was 'well it only makes the rattle for about 5 seconds, don't worry about it.' It came to a bit of a head around Christmas when the oil pressure indicator came on a couple of times - albeit only briefly, but you don't mess about with that! - and I took it in to Storm Developments get it looked at. They diagnosed the timing as being off and with a brief search if the net we discovered that this was most likely to be the cause. They duly stripped the bottom end (through the subframe) and found that it was caked in burnt oil. The strainer was blocked completely and there was deposits all around the sump. Long story short, my 80k full VAG history, recently serviced car needed a new oil pump, strainer and retiming as the exhaust cam had mildly (luckily) seized, knocking the timing a tooth out. 12 hours labour (only charged me for 8!) and £200 in parts plus the VAT came to a significant amount - altho an equally significant amount less than Audi would have charged.

My advice would be to get the sump dropped and the strainer cleaned out, and change the oil more regularly than the 20k on the service schedule. I was lucky, but this is not a rare problem and leaves us with a large bill (at best) and a destroyed engine at worst.

I would also extend my thanks to the guys at Storm Developments - they're a knowledgeable and friendly bunch, and really went all out to make sure that I was mobile as soon as possible. For those in the Berks area with either a VAG or BMW product looking for a good specialist I can highly recommend them.

Tame Technician

2,467 posts

206 months

Monday 25th January 2010
quotequote all
Greg M said:
Hi, first post and it's gonna be one of use! Yay!

Anyway, back on topic - my 04 A4 1.8T has just had a new oil pump and pick up. It's been rattling for in excess of 9 months and Audi's response when I asked them to fault find in March 09 (at the time of the 80k service) was 'well it only makes the rattle for about 5 seconds, don't worry about it.' It came to a bit of a head around Christmas when the oil pressure indicator came on a couple of times - albeit only briefly, but you don't mess about with that! - and I took it in to Storm Developments get it looked at. They diagnosed the timing as being off and with a brief search if the net we discovered that this was most likely to be the cause. They duly stripped the bottom end (through the subframe) and found that it was caked in burnt oil. The strainer was blocked completely and there was deposits all around the sump. Long story short, my 80k full VAG history, recently serviced car needed a new oil pump, strainer and retiming as the exhaust cam had mildly (luckily) seized, knocking the timing a tooth out. 12 hours labour (only charged me for 8!) and £200 in parts plus the VAT came to a significant amount - altho an equally significant amount less than Audi would have charged.

My advice would be to get the sump dropped and the strainer cleaned out, and change the oil more regularly than the 20k on the service schedule. I was lucky, but this is not a rare problem and leaves us with a large bill (at best) and a destroyed engine at worst.

I would also extend my thanks to the guys at Storm Developments - they're a knowledgeable and friendly bunch, and really went all out to make sure that I was mobile as soon as possible. For those in the Berks area with either a VAG or BMW product looking for a good specialist I can highly recommend them.
Very sorry to hear about your problems, I must admit if I owned one of these I would drop the sump and clean the strainer upon purchase, and fit an oil pressure gauge for that matter.

But if you dont mind can make a few points.

"Generally" if it rattles only for a few seconds on startup its the chain tensioner at the back of the head, not low oil pressure. Although as you say if you ever get the low oil pressure warning when driving, stop straight away, get recovered and looked at, go to the strainer first.

Also the failing chain tensioner can result in the timing being out ever so slightly.

The service interval for oil changes is not 20k miles, and its usually a failed PCV valve or blocked breather that causes exesive build up of burnt oil, rather than lack of regular maintainance.

I assume they checked the breather system and PVC valve, or you might find you have the same trouble again in 10k miles or so when it all carbons up again.

Iain328

12,370 posts

208 months

Monday 25th January 2010
quotequote all
Tame Technician said:
Greg M said:
Hi, first post and it's gonna be one of use! Yay!

Anyway, back on topic - my 04 A4 1.8T has just had a new oil pump and pick up. It's been rattling for in excess of 9 months and Audi's response when I asked them to fault find in March 09 (at the time of the 80k service) was 'well it only makes the rattle for about 5 seconds, don't worry about it.' It came to a bit of a head around Christmas when the oil pressure indicator came on a couple of times - albeit only briefly, but you don't mess about with that! - and I took it in to Storm Developments get it looked at. They diagnosed the timing as being off and with a brief search if the net we discovered that this was most likely to be the cause. They duly stripped the bottom end (through the subframe) and found that it was caked in burnt oil. The strainer was blocked completely and there was deposits all around the sump. Long story short, my 80k full VAG history, recently serviced car needed a new oil pump, strainer and retiming as the exhaust cam had mildly (luckily) seized, knocking the timing a tooth out. 12 hours labour (only charged me for 8!) and £200 in parts plus the VAT came to a significant amount - altho an equally significant amount less than Audi would have charged.

My advice would be to get the sump dropped and the strainer cleaned out, and change the oil more regularly than the 20k on the service schedule. I was lucky, but this is not a rare problem and leaves us with a large bill (at best) and a destroyed engine at worst.

I would also extend my thanks to the guys at Storm Developments - they're a knowledgeable and friendly bunch, and really went all out to make sure that I was mobile as soon as possible. For those in the Berks area with either a VAG or BMW product looking for a good specialist I can highly recommend them.
Very sorry to hear about your problems, I must admit if I owned one of these I would drop the sump and clean the strainer upon purchase, and fit an oil pressure gauge for that matter.

But if you dont mind can make a few points.

"Generally" if it rattles only for a few seconds on startup its the chain tensioner at the back of the head, not low oil pressure. Although as you say if you ever get the low oil pressure warning when driving, stop straight away, get recovered and looked at, go to the strainer first.

Also the failing chain tensioner can result in the timing being out ever so slightly.

The service interval for oil changes is not 20k miles, and its usually a failed PCV valve or blocked breather that causes exesive build up of burnt oil, rather than lack of regular maintainance.

I assume they checked the breather system and PVC valve, or you might find you have the same trouble again in 10k miles or so when it all carbons up again.
Not easy to drop the sump on a lot of the VAG 1.8Ts - in many cases there is a big crossmember in the way.

The problem is that they are prone to Sludging - there was a class action lawsuit in the States against both Audi and VW about it - read Passatworld & Audiworld & there is information about it.

The reason is that there isn't much oil in them & that doesn't help - you can help the situation a bit (certainly with the older 1.8T's) by fitting a larger oil filter. It holds about 1/2 litre more than standard which may not sound like much but as a percentage of the original 4 litres its quite a big hike.

Secondly you must use good quality synthetic oil in them - Mobil 1 is a winnner. Its less prone to turning to tar as it sits in a hot turbo after you turn the engine off. Best to change it relatively often too. Changing twice a year/5K miles won't cost much but may help a lot.

Thirdly, if you have driven it hard then let it cool down at idle a bit (or just drive sensibly for the last few miles) so that the turbo isn't cooking when you shut the thing down.

Lastly you can attempt to clean the engine out with some kind of flush - but you need to be careful when you do this because if its too aggressive it can just release a load of gunk that then really clogs up the oil pump pickup. A lot of the VW/Audi owners in the States swear by some stuff called AutoRX :

http://www.auto-rx.com (can be bought in the UK now I think http://www.auto-rx.co.uk )

A lot of these things are snake oil - this one appears to work. I've used it a couple of times & the difference just in the area round the camshafts before & after was pretty huge - it cleaned all the varnish etc away - the top end of a 100K mile engine was so clean you could have eaten your dinner off it.


nbucks

1 posts

159 months

Wednesday 23rd March 2011
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Sorry I am picking this one up again but it seems like I have been hit with the same Audi oil pump curse!

I recently bought a 2006 2ltr TDI Audi A4 Convertible through a private sale. The car has done 76,000 miles and has a full Audi service history.

2 weeks ago as I was driving the 'oil pressure level low' warning came on - I took straight to the garage who thought it was the sensor which had gone as no other signs of the failure, however when looked at further the oil pressure pump had broken. I had it towed to an Audi garage as they said given it has full audi service history they maybe able to make a contribution of between 30-80% of the repair costs which will be matched by Audi UK.

Having had the engine stripped down at a cost of close to £500, I have been advised that there is signs of wear to the engine, they will replace just the pump and turbo at a cost of £1895 (usually £2429) but they will not guarantee the engine which they advise needs replacing at a cost of £8513.92 (usually £10083) - a fair way off the 30-80% contribution initially offered! They say there is nothing else they can do to help as it is not a known fault and the car is out of warrantee.

Looking at forums it seems to be a fairly common fault - has this effected anyone else and what did you do about fixing?

I just cant believe that a 5 year old Audi can require a complete new engine and they take so little responsibly!

Thank you

Matt-b

73 posts

209 months

Wednesday 23rd March 2011
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Its not the same problem with the 2.0TDI that effects the 1.8T engine. With the 2.0 TDI you either have a chain or gear run balance shaft assembly. The chain assembly is the weaker of the two set ups and isn't available through audi anymore. They suffer with the plastic guide rail breaking for the chain tensioner resulting is plenty of noise and worn gears. With the gear set up the gears run the balance shafts and out of the balance shaft is a hexagonal rod that drives the oil pump. Its this rod that some how manages to round off and round out also the balance shaft resulting in the lack of oil pressure.

It sounds like you got a particularly raw deal with you Audi dealer if they only got a 30% contribution out of Audi UK for you - I would have been on the phone to Audi customer services having a good moan especially given the age and mileage of the car.

I don't particuarly want to rub salt into the would as it were but we had an A6 with around 90k (if I recall correctly) on a 55 plate that had suffered a similar fate - only the tandem pump had also packed in. The owner was quoted somewhere in the region of £8900 for a complete engine, turbo and tandem pump. Audi UK contributed 50% after a few calls from one of our service advisiors.

It may even still be worth a call to Audi customer services telling them you have little faith in the car after this problem, especially as you have been told by a dealer that they cant guarentee the engine itself is ok. Tell them you are thinking of replacing it with a BMW or something - that may get their attention - especially as their current way of thinking is 'We dont need any new custom if we can keep all our current customers happy and loyal'

Amazes me to be honest that such a small thing can near enough write a 5 year old car off

Tame Technician

2,467 posts

206 months

Wednesday 23rd March 2011
quotequote all
nbucks said:
Sorry I am picking this one up again but it seems like I have been hit with the same Audi oil pump curse!

I recently bought a 2006 2ltr TDI Audi A4 Convertible through a private sale. The car has done 76,000 miles and has a full Audi service history.

2 weeks ago as I was driving the 'oil pressure level low' warning came on - I took straight to the garage who thought it was the sensor which had gone as no other signs of the failure, however when looked at further the oil pressure pump had broken. I had it towed to an Audi garage as they said given it has full audi service history they maybe able to make a contribution of between 30-80% of the repair costs which will be matched by Audi UK.

Having had the engine stripped down at a cost of close to £500, I have been advised that there is signs of wear to the engine, they will replace just the pump and turbo at a cost of £1895 (usually £2429) but they will not guarantee the engine which they advise needs replacing at a cost of £8513.92 (usually £10083) - a fair way off the 30-80% contribution initially offered! They say there is nothing else they can do to help as it is not a known fault and the car is out of warrantee.

Looking at forums it seems to be a fairly common fault - has this effected anyone else and what did you do about fixing?

I just cant believe that a 5 year old Audi can require a complete new engine and they take so little responsibly!

Thank you
(1) As above the 1.8T fault is not the same as that on teh 2.0TDI, just happens that teh result is the same, failed oil pump. The thread you need is this one.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

(2) They dont have to offer anything after the 3 year warranty is up (and most manuafacturers dont), so any contribution is good.

Also you drove it with the light on, so alot of the damage will be down to that, not really Audi's fault.

(3) ring Audi customer services, and point out you were told its not a common problem, when you know it is, there is a TPI about this very fauly, and they modified the engines on later cars to minimise failure.

(4) If all else fails, the £1895 repair would be your best option as I see it. Its not worth spending £10k on an engine in a car of that value.

TDIfurby

1,997 posts

177 months

Thursday 24th March 2011
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At that sort of repair bill I'd be looking at getting a complete low mileage second hand engine (just the long block) and changing it complete. Obviously not using an Audi dealer for the work. Approx £1200 I would think for engine, and £500 of labour?

cricky1

2 posts

162 months

Friday 21st October 2011
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Hi Guys,
If you have had a problem with your Audi A4 TDi 2.0 BLB engine or any other VW/Audi issue, and you can get your car to Coventry, then give this guy a call.
His name is Mike and he is an Audi specialist, he converted my BLB engine to the gear driven oil pump, from the chain driven version, all for under £1000, when Audi were quoting me £4k for a new engine.
Even if your engine has been damaged beyond repair, he can supply a reconditioned engine for a good price, and fit is if you require that service.
Audi are not interested in helping people out with their problems, but this guy was so helpful, which is the only reason I am passing this on, and hopefully he can help you out too.
Give him a call and ask him for a quote, Turbo,s Engines, or general VW/Audi issues, all can be resolved for a fair price (not main dealer nonsense !)
Apricot Engineering
Tel : 07970 478931 - His name is Mike