Best , Easiest & Cheapest way to 300bhp+???
Discussion
Painey said:
Not really, but it kind of figures that if you increase the amount of air getting into the engine, which that helps to do, then the injectors might struggle to keep up. Now I'm the opposite of an expert on this so I stand to be corrected but I've read about others having to upgrade their injectors because of things like this. Although that maybe due to more work being done on induction than just the ACT inlet pipe, i.e. triple plenums/carbon trumpets etc.
yeah thats what i thought, obviously it your change the entire induction system the injectors might be getting close to 100% duration but certainly not with just the inlet pipe change!
i would just go for the quick wins, silicon pipe, MA chip and his recommended AFM. you should seem some usuable power and better drivability from these mods and there about the cheapest things you can do that will make a worthwhile difference
siwes said:
Starmist.
Nose heavy ? in a Griff? that would be a good thing for a car that has the aerodynamics of an aeroplane wing, it wants to take off at speeds approaching 140 mph, another reason why spending thousands to get more HP out a very dated engine is not a good idea.
Hi Simon, this is getting a bit surreal!
At this sort of power level, moving the CoG forwards is not a good idea. It will compromise the handling, the further you move it the worse it will get. But adding a small amount of weight up front won't move the CoG enough to do much harm.
The aerodynamic lift on my V8S is very small (at the speeds my car is capable of achieving - say up to 160 mph) compared to the weight of the car. The Griffith has a very similar weight and shape and I would expect it to be very similar. The amount of lost grip is negligeable, and as for the car taking off, forget it. However, it only takes a relatively small amount of lift to upset the handling balance if the center of lift is a long way from the center of gravity - which it is in this case. Fortunately there are various ways you can compensate for this if you expect to be cornering hard at three figure speeds.
As for the aerodynamics being a reason not to increase the power, I don't quite follow your logic here but perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree. After all, you're entitled to your own opinions, even if they are wrong.
>> Edited by greenv8s on Monday 9th August 13:14
starmist said:
...
The ACT inlet pipe and its own will give you an increase in power, but perhaps not as much as you would get with new injectors / other inlet work. There is no reason why you shouldn't do this in isolation. Speak to Mark Adams (if you can get hold of him) or Tim Lamont at ACT. They'll both tell you the same thing!
Have to second this. If you want to keep below 1K costwise, just look at the pipe/AFM/chip/RR session. This will be very unlikely to require injectors. For under 2K you can add the twin plenum, and should still get good results without the more expensive work (injectors/heads/cam). In both cases, if(when
) you decide on further upgrades then these mods won't be wasted. p.s. No pressure intended, but you did say that you WANTED to spend some money, and most of us are only too happy to help
Edited to add: You also mentioned "cost effective", so that would mean instead of the pretty carbon box, you could have the aly one enlarged.
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 9th August 14:43
set of injectors for a Griff 70 pounds each
act plenemum and hoses trumpets and throttle body 2000 pounds at least
rolling road session
upgrade chip
leads
coil
messing around with the exhaust syatem
gas flowed heads
cam shaft
that little lot with labour will cost you over 7000 pounds for what 50-60 hp ,it is simply not worth it can't you lot see that, I think you can , just won't accept it.
If you do that then of course you must upgrade the brakes , new shocks and set up
The reason I know this is because I have been down this road and done the above and more to my Griff it was fun doing it , but it still wasn't worth it for the results , my car puts out on a good day 360 BHP That is the very most you can get out of a Rover V8 without as I said earlier "boost"
simon
act plenemum and hoses trumpets and throttle body 2000 pounds at least
rolling road session
upgrade chip
leads
coil
messing around with the exhaust syatem
gas flowed heads
cam shaft
that little lot with labour will cost you over 7000 pounds for what 50-60 hp ,it is simply not worth it can't you lot see that, I think you can , just won't accept it.
If you do that then of course you must upgrade the brakes , new shocks and set up
The reason I know this is because I have been down this road and done the above and more to my Griff it was fun doing it , but it still wasn't worth it for the results , my car puts out on a good day 360 BHP That is the very most you can get out of a Rover V8 without as I said earlier "boost"
simon
I've been watching this for some time and I am pretty sure that there is some violent agreement here. Long missive warning...
In my experience average engine upgrades work out at £100 per bhp for the first 10-15%. Beyond that they will rise exponentially. Rough rule of thumb that I use is get the cost of the engine work and double it. To get anywhere near Tuscan Racer power and the costs can be more than the car is worth.
You can get more than 360 but you don't start with a Griff 500 engine. Sell it for about £4000. Add the 7000 and you can then start to specify a bespoke Rover V8 with 8 down draught throttle bodies, DTA fully mapped system etc as fitted to the 520. That will get you 400+ but the compromises are immense. Might need to spend a little more on upgrades but it can be done. No make that a lot... Very easy to spend 15-20K on a car that is worth only 15-16 to start with! I think this is where Siwes is coming from. For most owners, this is insane. I justify it because of competition and its fun... and drinking too many beers with Dave and Mark at Tower View.
Would I recommend it to a Griff owner? Yes and no. Probably no. The power is great but the running costs are huge with an average sub-10 MPG and consumable gearboxes etc etc. For a competition car and for the fun of it, yes.
It is certainly smooth enough but is a complete animal and one that not many would feel comfortable in driving in all conditions.
Would an LS1 be a suitable alternative? Yes the engine would be cheaper but the over all costs because of all the fettling and additional work that is needed would be increased. The engine would be cheaper but the fitting and fettling would be more. Looked into it and came to the conclusion that I would end up with about the same costs but with additional hassle because the engine type had changed (insurance and competition class regs).
So if you are chasing Tuscan power then I can see where Siwes is coming from. However, I also have a TVR that is my daily transport.
My Griff has benefitted from the Wedges cast off. It has the 2000 spec front brakes which are great, not expensive and help tremendously. It has the larger plenum (alloy not CF), jag air flow and a Mark Adams chip. Power is around 300 bhp. Extremely smooth and easy to drive and Mark set it up to thrive on plain unleaded which means that with the mileage I have done the MA chip and RR has already paid for itself. End result is that the mods have been modest but have improved the drivealbility and everything.
At one time I did think about putting the 520's engine into the GRiff and getting something with more power but while it would be fun and by transferring some of the stuff that Tower View and I have developed for the 520 we could solve most of the problems that beset big power hikes including aerodynamics - the reason why many Griffs feel light is that they have been set up with reduced rake in a lot of cases... Level cars are not good for aero... I didn't do it because I didn't want to ruin the car. I wanted it so that while it was a bit quicker than normal, it was pleasent and easy to drive in all conditions. It's a shopping trolley after all. It is already quick enough to win the race for parking spaces.
The bigger plenums/injectors etc will give more performance but there is a point where to go beyond it, a more radical approach is neeeded and that is when it starts costing very big bucks. If you don't want to go beyond that then getting a MA Chip, maybe a bigger plenum and doing it in stages need not cost the earth and the differences can be quite appreciable. The problem comes when you want to go beyound that when in reality it is time to junk the ECU/plenum/distributor etc and go a fully mapped multiple throttle body route. The end result is startling but so the bill will be. The problem is that the jump between the two is expensive.
Doesn't mean that a liitle tinkering is not a good idea but there is a point where it is not cost effective to continue and it is better to change direction with how to get power out of the engine.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
In my experience average engine upgrades work out at £100 per bhp for the first 10-15%. Beyond that they will rise exponentially. Rough rule of thumb that I use is get the cost of the engine work and double it. To get anywhere near Tuscan Racer power and the costs can be more than the car is worth.
You can get more than 360 but you don't start with a Griff 500 engine. Sell it for about £4000. Add the 7000 and you can then start to specify a bespoke Rover V8 with 8 down draught throttle bodies, DTA fully mapped system etc as fitted to the 520. That will get you 400+ but the compromises are immense. Might need to spend a little more on upgrades but it can be done. No make that a lot... Very easy to spend 15-20K on a car that is worth only 15-16 to start with! I think this is where Siwes is coming from. For most owners, this is insane. I justify it because of competition and its fun... and drinking too many beers with Dave and Mark at Tower View.
Would I recommend it to a Griff owner? Yes and no. Probably no. The power is great but the running costs are huge with an average sub-10 MPG and consumable gearboxes etc etc. For a competition car and for the fun of it, yes.
It is certainly smooth enough but is a complete animal and one that not many would feel comfortable in driving in all conditions.
Would an LS1 be a suitable alternative? Yes the engine would be cheaper but the over all costs because of all the fettling and additional work that is needed would be increased. The engine would be cheaper but the fitting and fettling would be more. Looked into it and came to the conclusion that I would end up with about the same costs but with additional hassle because the engine type had changed (insurance and competition class regs).
So if you are chasing Tuscan power then I can see where Siwes is coming from. However, I also have a TVR that is my daily transport.
My Griff has benefitted from the Wedges cast off. It has the 2000 spec front brakes which are great, not expensive and help tremendously. It has the larger plenum (alloy not CF), jag air flow and a Mark Adams chip. Power is around 300 bhp. Extremely smooth and easy to drive and Mark set it up to thrive on plain unleaded which means that with the mileage I have done the MA chip and RR has already paid for itself. End result is that the mods have been modest but have improved the drivealbility and everything.
At one time I did think about putting the 520's engine into the GRiff and getting something with more power but while it would be fun and by transferring some of the stuff that Tower View and I have developed for the 520 we could solve most of the problems that beset big power hikes including aerodynamics - the reason why many Griffs feel light is that they have been set up with reduced rake in a lot of cases... Level cars are not good for aero... I didn't do it because I didn't want to ruin the car. I wanted it so that while it was a bit quicker than normal, it was pleasent and easy to drive in all conditions. It's a shopping trolley after all. It is already quick enough to win the race for parking spaces.
The bigger plenums/injectors etc will give more performance but there is a point where to go beyond it, a more radical approach is neeeded and that is when it starts costing very big bucks. If you don't want to go beyond that then getting a MA Chip, maybe a bigger plenum and doing it in stages need not cost the earth and the differences can be quite appreciable. The problem comes when you want to go beyound that when in reality it is time to junk the ECU/plenum/distributor etc and go a fully mapped multiple throttle body route. The end result is startling but so the bill will be. The problem is that the jump between the two is expensive.
Doesn't mean that a liitle tinkering is not a good idea but there is a point where it is not cost effective to continue and it is better to change direction with how to get power out of the engine.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Tim,
In your experience, if I were to fit the replacement inlet pipes you do from air filter to plenum (as a starting point) is it likely to increase the chances of pinking? Also is the increased amount of air likely to cause the injectors to struggle to keep up on a std N reg 500?
Cheers - Chris
>> Edited by Painey on Monday 9th August 17:18
In your experience, if I were to fit the replacement inlet pipes you do from air filter to plenum (as a starting point) is it likely to increase the chances of pinking? Also is the increased amount of air likely to cause the injectors to struggle to keep up on a std N reg 500?
Cheers - Chris
>> Edited by Painey on Monday 9th August 17:18
Painey said:
Tim,
In your experience, if I were to fit the replacement inlet pipes you do from air filter to plenum (as a starting point) is it likely to increase the chances of pinking? Also is the increased amount of air likely to cause the injectors to struggle to keep up on a std N reg 500?
Cheers - Chris
>> Edited by Painey on Monday 9th August 17:18
Chris
Depends on whether the injectors are in good order and whether the timming is set on the edge of pinking, it is possible that the extra air could cause pinking but unlikely, likewise if the injectors are in a bad state yes they will struggle to keep up with the airflow, but in normal circumstances there wouldn't be a problem, I know that Paul @ Austec/ rolling road has fitted these and gained without adjustments required.
And a general note
It is true that sometimes by going for tuning mods can open a "can of worms" but this isn't the norm and if there are problems it's worth getting them put right and surely this comes under maintenance not upgrading
Tim
The possibility of pinking does bother me as the car's been doing it lately but that could be due to the recent warm weather as it's never really been noticeable before. Just happens on the very odd occasion at full throttle but has certainly got worse over the last couple of weekends. The car has been set up on Austec's rolling road during it's recent service.
Re. the injectors, judging by how much power the car is putting out I'm fairly confident that they're OK.
As for the can of worms, don't want to go opening that one!
Re. the injectors, judging by how much power the car is putting out I'm fairly confident that they're OK.
As for the can of worms, don't want to go opening that one!
siwes said:Simon - it's hardly worth arguing with you because you "know it all" however in fairness to Tim and Mark I would point out that I paid FAR less than that for Carbon plenum, twin throttles, Jag AFM, Tornado chip, rolling road session etc.
set of injectors for a Griff 70 pounds each act plenemum and hoses trumpets and throttle body 2000 pounds at least, rolling road session, upgrade chip etc. etc. that little lot with labour will cost you over 7000---->>>> The reason I know this is because I have been down this road and done the above and more to my Griff it was fun doing it , but it still wasn't worth it for the results
Rich...Tks Shpub you put it so much better than I could, I was just trying to save someone going down the slippery costly road I went down. Even if it was good fun.
Now if you are talking performance I had a drive of a Tuscan S last time I was home , bloody hell, save your money on next to useless upgrades on the Griff and save for one of those beasts
I must have one,
I even put a bid on a yellow one on ebay ,was the highest bidder but couldn't make his reserve, I could have if I had sold my beloved Griff
but I just can't as it is still the best looking car I have ever seen anywhere.
What a car that is sooner or later, that is true performance, now could I get that engine in the Griff
simon
Now if you are talking performance I had a drive of a Tuscan S last time I was home , bloody hell, save your money on next to useless upgrades on the Griff and save for one of those beasts
I must have one, I even put a bid on a yellow one on ebay ,was the highest bidder but couldn't make his reserve, I could have if I had sold my beloved Griff
but I just can't as it is still the best looking car I have ever seen anywhere. What a car that is sooner or later, that is true performance, now could I get that engine in the Griff
simon
Painey said:
Tim,
In your experience, if I were to fit the replacement inlet pipes you do from air filter to plenum (as a starting point) is it likely to increase the chances of pinking? Also is the increased amount of air likely to cause the injectors to struggle to keep up on a std N reg 500?
Cheers - Chris
>> Edited by Painey on Monday 9th August 17:18
I recently had the MA magic plus Bosch AFM and new ducting but even though the injectors had been given a clean bill of health they ran out of puff. Result - timing retarded to 23 degrees to avoid pinking. The engine feels a bit flat right now and I guess the timing is to blame. I am told I will need to go the upgraded injector route to allow the timing to get back to somewhere around 28 degrees. Anyway figures on the day (bloody hot) were 280bhp @ 4,800 and 330lb/ft @ 3,800.
David
siwes said:Good god man it was you that set this whole thing off by saying you were an "expert". I not going to stoop to your level, but I know what I paid for my upgrades and you are quite simply wrong - by a long chalk .
"know it all" no not by a long way , just more than you it seems
siwes said:
Now if you are talking performance I had a drive of a Tuscan S last time I was home , bloody hell, save your money on next to useless upgrades on the Griff and save for one of those beasts
My thoughts exactly.
I think in general you're spot and well done for speaking out at the risk of offending a few people on here.
That's not to say I'm not going to mod my car any more tho - I'd just be hesitant when it comes to spending thousands for a few more bhp when I'm quite happy with the performance as is. Improved air flow, better brakes etc but that's where it will end.
DustyC said:
Surely thats back-to-front aeroplane wing.
Different effect.
Depends on how you view this. It's the same effect in that it produces uplift but not as efficient.
DustyC said:
Pic: An aeroplane wing yesterday.
Nice picture.
DustyC said:
Plus, what sports cars aren't this shape?
Very few; maybe the Caterham with the aerodynamics of a brick. Most cars are generally this shape.
DustyC said:
Mine felt fine at 155 with the roof down.
Good. The greater the speed the greater the tendancy to take off but it doesn't mean that it will. The uplift is balanced by dead weight plus the aerodynamic load from spoilers.
Painey said:
The possibility of pinking does bother me as the car's been doing it lately but that could be due to the recent warm weather as it's never really been noticeable before. Just happens on the very odd occasion at full throttle but has certainly got worse over the last couple of weekends. The car has been set up on Austec's rolling road during it's recent service.
Re. the injectors, judging by how much power the car is putting out I'm fairly confident that they're OK.
As for the can of worms, don't want to go opening that one!
Yep mine too, I put it down to the weather
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