Best , Easiest & Cheapest way to 300bhp+???
Discussion
JoolzB said:No offence ever taken by me, can't speak for others. That a Tuscan S is far more powerful than a Griff 500 has never been in dispute. That it is "logical, Mr Spock" to upgrade to one of those is also not in dispute, all I wanted to do is set straight that I have not spent anything like £7k on my Griff and I am very happy with the mods I have done.
I think in general you're spot and well done for speaking out at the risk of offending a few people on here.
Which I have done because personally I much prefer the looks of the Griff to the Tuscan. Rich... >> Edited by RichB on Tuesday 10th August 17:09
I think a Griff (500) is a very fast car to begin with, especially compared to other sports cars which are usually much more expensive. Tweaking it a little makes it even faster and in this condition there is little that can keep up with it. Sure, a Tuscan S is faster and so is a Cerbera (above 100 mph 
), but then there will always be a faster car.
For me the Griff is sheer beauty and it's nice to see how you can improve the car within a reasonable budget. What is reasonable differs per person. I think upgrading the brakes, dampers, inlet, airflow, + MA treatment is good value for money and indeed, nowhere near 7k.
Must also say that it's tempting to go a bit further each time and maybe it's not always wise to do so.
But he, it 's a passion, not a business!
), but then there will always be a faster car. For me the Griff is sheer beauty and it's nice to see how you can improve the car within a reasonable budget. What is reasonable differs per person. I think upgrading the brakes, dampers, inlet, airflow, + MA treatment is good value for money and indeed, nowhere near 7k.
Must also say that it's tempting to go a bit further each time and maybe it's not always wise to do so.
But he, it 's a passion, not a business!
RichB said:
I think in general you're spot and well done for speaking out at the risk of offending a few people on here.
No ofense ever taken by me, can't speak for others. That a Tuscan S is far more powerfull than a Griff 500 has never been in dispute. That it is "logical, Mr Spock" to upgrade to one of those is also not in dispute, all I wanted to do is set straighgt that I have not spent anything like £7k on my Griff and I am very happy with the mods I have done.
That's fair enough, I tend to agree on the looks front aswell and will probably keep my car for another year at least especially after the time, effort and money I've put into making it the car I want it to be. The Ruscan will just have to wait.
It is quite interesting however to see what Siwes has to say after going for alot of mods on his car. Each to their own tho and if you're happy with the mods then why not.
gerjo said:Couldn't agree more. There are those who look at everything in terms of value for money, there are those who do it just because they want to, and there are those who sit somewhere between the two.
it 's a passion, not a business!
I read about kids who've spend £20k on their Saxos and my immediate thought is why not just by a fast car in the first place? But since I've started spending some money on my Griff I think I've started to realise why people do it.
Earlier this year, I came in to a bit of money and thought about changing the Griff for something else, but there really wasn't anything else that I could afford (up to £30k max) that I wanted. I test drove a Tuscan, but didn't want a car that was going to lose £10k over the next 2 - 3 years, so I decided to spend the money on my Griff. Even if it doesn't add anything to its value, I will only have spend what I would have lost in depreciation on another, newer car.
In the meantime, I keep the glorious soundtrack, the classic looks, the 'sleeper' status (hardly anyone knows what it is, let alone how well it goes) and the comfort in the knowledge that it's one of the most powerful Griffs out there.
For me, that is justification enough, but it may not be for everyone. If at the end of the road I become disillutioned at what I have achieved for the money, I may feel like siwes and want to warm other people of making the same 'mistake'. But we are all individuals and there is no right or wrong, and hey, if people want to spend their money, who are we to stop them?
As a fellow Griff mod junkie ( got another fix lined at Mech this Friday ) I wanted to add my few pennyworth to this debate.
For me, it's never been about having either the fastest car or the biggest BHP - I just think that the Griff is one of the most stunning cars ever made plus it provides substantial performance accompanied by one of the world's best soundtracks.
I've been fortunate to have had faster, better handling,higher build quality cars but none,with the exception of a 355 GTB, have given me the same amount of enjoyment.
In owning,upgrading and personalising my Griff I have both expanded my own general car knowledge and more importantly met some interesting,enthusiastic and extremely knowledgable people - many through this excellent site.
As well as track days I've even started attending the odd car club meetings like the recent Griff Growl -something I never did with other marques.
In summary, I certainly feel that I personally have had excellent overall value from both the ownership and upgrade costs that I've incurred.
) I wanted to add my few pennyworth to this debate. For me, it's never been about having either the fastest car or the biggest BHP - I just think that the Griff is one of the most stunning cars ever made plus it provides substantial performance accompanied by one of the world's best soundtracks.
I've been fortunate to have had faster, better handling,higher build quality cars but none,with the exception of a 355 GTB, have given me the same amount of enjoyment.
In owning,upgrading and personalising my Griff I have both expanded my own general car knowledge and more importantly met some interesting,enthusiastic and extremely knowledgable people - many through this excellent site.
As well as track days I've even started attending the odd car club meetings like the recent Griff Growl -something I never did with other marques.
In summary, I certainly feel that I personally have had excellent overall value from both the ownership and upgrade costs that I've incurred.
That's the best crack yet! Rich...Hi Simon - I hope you are still looking at this topic. You have made many entertaining and useful posts before on PH, and are obviously not afraid to poke a stick in a Hornet's nest!
I completely respect the fact that you don't think your modifications represent good value, and that you are ready to say it. Since nobody else can tell you what your values are, then you are the only person who can answer that one. Also I am sorry to hear that you feel that way.
Looking through my records, I may be wrong, but I don't think that I have ever seen your car for a setup. Am I mistaken?
Like many people, my personal decisions on modifying cars do not stand up to logical or financial scrutiny. Since the decisions have been strongly influenced by the heart, it doesn't really matter to me. With regard to engine transplants, I have been involved in many and I do know that none of them are ever cheap, easy, or quick! In fact the engine itself is usually a minor incidental cost.
For instance I have spent around £14K over several years, perfecting a 4.8 Rover V8 with 6-speed T56 gearbox installation in my pet Sierra (includes outright purchase of engine, gearbox, and immaculate car). Amongst the obvious reasons for choosing the Rover V8 were the light weight and compact size for the capacity. And reliability - I have enjoyed nearly 180,000 Miles in that car and it's predecessor.
Is this really sensible? I think not. However the fun comes when mashing a BMW M3 or Audi TT etc - which are superb cars and great performance benchmarks in their own different rights. It is still a totally practical and economical 5-seater hatchback, with a large boot.
If we bought cars on economic grounds only, we would all drive Metro Diesels. These do 85-90MPG (yes really!), are very cheap to buy, and even cheaper to run if you feed them on Bio-Diesel. However I have not experienced an irresistable urge to swap over yet.
Although I rarely post on PH when there is any possibility of commercial interest or ulterior motive, there are a couple of wrong pieces of information that need to be corrected.
Firstly I have never seen a £7K bill for this type of modification package alone - and I would be blown away to receive one myself! If major engine work were included, then this is possible. Major engine work comes under the maintenance heading, not strictly upgrades.
The dyno facilities I use are John Eales and V8 Developments for eninges alone. Rolling roads are Austec, Power Engineering, and Mech Repairs. All of these agree with each other, except Mech which reads much lower.
On these dynos (both engine and chassis), most standard 5.0 TVR engines consistently pump out 255-265BHP with 300-310lb/ft of torque. These figures are corrected flywheel figures, taking into account barometric pressure and temperature. It all depends how you measure your horses, so it is very important to use the same dynos to plot the increments.
Just last week at Austec, we did two Griff 500s and one Chimaera 500. All of them were late cars and very similar. All were running weak, and had the ignition timing retarded to prevent detonation which is quite typical. The same package was applied to all of them, with the same results and costs. This was Bosch Airflow meter and injectors, ACT inlet trunk, Tornado software, fitted and set up on the rolling road. Result? 35BHP and 45lb/ft for around £2K, with impeccable road manners.
It is very important to note that the full gains here were not due to the upgrades alone, which probably account for 20-25BHP and 30-35lb/ft. The cars could not be made to run correctly without introducing at least reprogramming the ECU and cleaning the existing injectors. The owners all decided to take the next increment at the same time.
If your car is healthy, just over £3000 will buy you an ACT twin throttle Carbon Fibre plenum with trumpets, Bosch or Weber injectors, Tornado software, ACT inlet trunk, Bosch airflow meter, fitting and full rolling road setup, including VAT.
Best of all it will drive perfectly, and have impeccable manners.
I completely respect the fact that you don't think your modifications represent good value, and that you are ready to say it. Since nobody else can tell you what your values are, then you are the only person who can answer that one. Also I am sorry to hear that you feel that way.
Looking through my records, I may be wrong, but I don't think that I have ever seen your car for a setup. Am I mistaken?
Like many people, my personal decisions on modifying cars do not stand up to logical or financial scrutiny. Since the decisions have been strongly influenced by the heart, it doesn't really matter to me. With regard to engine transplants, I have been involved in many and I do know that none of them are ever cheap, easy, or quick! In fact the engine itself is usually a minor incidental cost.
For instance I have spent around £14K over several years, perfecting a 4.8 Rover V8 with 6-speed T56 gearbox installation in my pet Sierra (includes outright purchase of engine, gearbox, and immaculate car). Amongst the obvious reasons for choosing the Rover V8 were the light weight and compact size for the capacity. And reliability - I have enjoyed nearly 180,000 Miles in that car and it's predecessor.
Is this really sensible? I think not. However the fun comes when mashing a BMW M3 or Audi TT etc - which are superb cars and great performance benchmarks in their own different rights. It is still a totally practical and economical 5-seater hatchback, with a large boot.
If we bought cars on economic grounds only, we would all drive Metro Diesels. These do 85-90MPG (yes really!), are very cheap to buy, and even cheaper to run if you feed them on Bio-Diesel. However I have not experienced an irresistable urge to swap over yet.
Although I rarely post on PH when there is any possibility of commercial interest or ulterior motive, there are a couple of wrong pieces of information that need to be corrected.
Firstly I have never seen a £7K bill for this type of modification package alone - and I would be blown away to receive one myself! If major engine work were included, then this is possible. Major engine work comes under the maintenance heading, not strictly upgrades.
The dyno facilities I use are John Eales and V8 Developments for eninges alone. Rolling roads are Austec, Power Engineering, and Mech Repairs. All of these agree with each other, except Mech which reads much lower.
On these dynos (both engine and chassis), most standard 5.0 TVR engines consistently pump out 255-265BHP with 300-310lb/ft of torque. These figures are corrected flywheel figures, taking into account barometric pressure and temperature. It all depends how you measure your horses, so it is very important to use the same dynos to plot the increments.
Just last week at Austec, we did two Griff 500s and one Chimaera 500. All of them were late cars and very similar. All were running weak, and had the ignition timing retarded to prevent detonation which is quite typical. The same package was applied to all of them, with the same results and costs. This was Bosch Airflow meter and injectors, ACT inlet trunk, Tornado software, fitted and set up on the rolling road. Result? 35BHP and 45lb/ft for around £2K, with impeccable road manners.
It is very important to note that the full gains here were not due to the upgrades alone, which probably account for 20-25BHP and 30-35lb/ft. The cars could not be made to run correctly without introducing at least reprogramming the ECU and cleaning the existing injectors. The owners all decided to take the next increment at the same time.
If your car is healthy, just over £3000 will buy you an ACT twin throttle Carbon Fibre plenum with trumpets, Bosch or Weber injectors, Tornado software, ACT inlet trunk, Bosch airflow meter, fitting and full rolling road setup, including VAT.
Best of all it will drive perfectly, and have impeccable manners.
Bloody hell Mark, thats not a post its an epic!
A good one though.
As Im getting used to my car (or perhaps as Im using it a bit too much!) ithe rev range feels kinda lumpy on the way up when accelerating.
Its kinda like a VTEC feel but not as severe.
WIll the chip and RR session sort this?
Will cleaning of the injetors alone be enough?
Trouble is that I want the chip really but the insurance company will tell me to F-off.
I will be renewing with a better compnay in next spring though.
So is it worth just getting the injectors cleaned for now or waiting and getting the chip at the same time?
A good one though.
As Im getting used to my car (or perhaps as Im using it a bit too much!) ithe rev range feels kinda lumpy on the way up when accelerating.
Its kinda like a VTEC feel but not as severe.
WIll the chip and RR session sort this?
Will cleaning of the injetors alone be enough?
Trouble is that I want the chip really but the insurance company will tell me to F-off.
I will be renewing with a better compnay in next spring though.
So is it worth just getting the injectors cleaned for now or waiting and getting the chip at the same time?
DustyC said:I've got a nice set of recently cleaned and matched injectors if you're interested. I'll let them go for what it'll cost you to get yours cleaned and sorted, just so I can recover the cost of having mine done before I changed them for the Webers.
Bloody hell Mark, thats not a post its an epic!
A good one though.
As Im getting used to my car (or perhaps as Im using it a bit too much!) ithe rev range feels kinda lumpy on the way up when accelerating.
Its kinda like a VTEC feel but not as severe.
WIll the chip and RR session sort this?
Will cleaning of the injetors alone be enough?
Trouble is that I want the chip really but the insurance company will tell me to F-off.
I will be renewing with a better compnay in next spring though.
So is it worth just getting the injectors cleaned for now or waiting and getting the chip at the same time?
DustyC said:
?
Trouble is that I want the chip really but the insurance company will tell me to F-off.
I will be renewing with a better compnay in next spring though.
why? your mods are to improve the rough intown running, a trait 500's are reknowned for, not to increase the bhp, which'll still be below factory spec anyway, good thinking TVR
A lot of the insurance companies actually are on Pistonheads and know that a MA chip will increase the power as well as all the other things and will evaluate the increased risk accordingly. Some do not like the idea of taking a very high powered sports car and further increasing its performance without looking at the whole car and the driver's background (age does play a big big part here).
It is very worthwhile checking with your insurance company before modifying the car just in case.
The only modification that won't potentially load the insurance is driver training....
It is very worthwhile checking with your insurance company before modifying the car just in case.
The only modification that won't potentially load the insurance is driver training....
I would suggest that a tiny percantage of insurance companies take into account all the things mentioned.
All the others are modern day highway men that will fleece the Motorist at any opportunity.
SOme will just say a flat NO to any mods at all and even to being insured whilst doing driver training.
Dont shoot me down, its the insurers that need to be stopped. They get away with daylight robbery.
All the others are modern day highway men that will fleece the Motorist at any opportunity.
SOme will just say a flat NO to any mods at all and even to being insured whilst doing driver training.
Dont shoot me down, its the insurers that need to be stopped. They get away with daylight robbery.
Generally classic car insurance brokers are more accommodating when it comes to modifications, i've used several that haven't increased the premium at all,
Many of my customers with normal use policies also have had only minor increases after modifications, best thing is to use a broker/ company used to dealing with TVRs and always inform of any modifications in detail.
Tim
Many of my customers with normal use policies also have had only minor increases after modifications, best thing is to use a broker/ company used to dealing with TVRs and always inform of any modifications in detail.
Tim
starmist said:
blah blah blah....lots of very important words....blah blah blah
Hear hear, Mark. Strong words softly spoken.
Absolutely, Mark And I were getting a bit of a pasting in this thread as well as support but as usual Mark "cleans up" and very diplomatically.
I read the thread back and you can't help but notice the amount of support for modifications.
Tim
Mark Adams said:
If we bought cars on economic grounds only, we would all drive Metro Diesels. These do 85-90MPG (yes really!), are very cheap to buy, and even cheaper to run if you feed them on Bio-Diesel. However I have not experienced an irresistable urge to swap over yet.
I only get 50-60 mpg out of mine but then I do tend to drive it like the Griff!! 1.4 litres of pure sponginess,great fun,you dont know what your missing.
After commuting in this all week the Griff feels like a Tuscan S !!
h
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