500 Crankshaft Snapped ?

[swill]

Hello People,
I don't know if anyone can offer me any advice/assistance, but my Griff ceased working last weekend. After waiting for the AA (who diagnosed a siezed engine), then awaiting a recovery truck, the car was taken to Peninsula Nr Exeter.
I have since been informed that the crankshaft has broken, and that my cheapest option is a new "short motor".
The car will have been with Peninsula a week tomorrow,
but I have not been given a estimate yet of a "complete costing", only have been told that the new "short motor" is in the region of £5,000.
As an option they also suggested a 4.6 short motor, but this is not an avenue I wish to go down - as will surely devalue the car no-end.
The car has an "insurance" warranty cover on it, but this has a limit of £1,000, so anything over that will be my pleasure to pay. Any advice welcome..

[nano2nd]

sorry to hear that mate

but the perfect excuse for a 5.2 v8d lump?

[Paul V]

Speak direct to TVR power and see what they say, they might do you a deal on one of the Upgrades they offer.

[Apache]

Dig up V8 Developments in oily pages. They'll sort you out

[Boosted LS1]

I'd be interested to know how much a crank would cost you and the amount of time it will take to sort it out. Is it a cast 90mm item?

[swill]

Apache said:

Dig up V8 Developments in oily pages. They'll sort you out

Hi
I've spoken to V8 developments, who can supply a 5.1 short motor for £3,000 plus the dreaded..
The did say that this is far superior to the (apparantely troublesome) standard 500 unit, still don't know how Peninsula could have got a figure of £5,000 for the the normal one ??
Thanks for all who have responded so far - Swill

[greenv8s]

Five grand will buy you a very nice short engine, but you need to know whether this includes VAT, labour etc before you can compare prices.

[swill]

greenv8s said:

Five grand will buy you a very nice short engine, but you need to know whether this includes VAT, labour etc before you can compare prices.

Hi GreenV8S,
Thanks for your input, much appreciated (to all) - The quote from Peninsula of £5,000 is just for the short motor (no labour or vat), and likewise the quote of £3,000 from V8 Developments for a new 5.1 "bespoke" unit - I just find it hard to swallow that TVR want £5,000 for a renowned (although nobody told me before I bought one) unreliable unit (it was rebuilt by TVR power 12k ago!!) - when a far superior unit (the 5.1) can be purchased for almost half the price ??
Cheers!! - Swill

[Boosted LS1]

There are differences I think. You will pay a premium if it's been built by tvr. The tvr may have a custom fully counterbalanced crank shaft in it, (I can make those but it takes time). A V8d engine will most likely use a stroked 4.6 crank (nothing wrong with and that's a much cheaper route). Both engines will have a cross-bolted block probably linered to 96mm. They may use different pistons from different suppliers, could be cast or forged from Omega or Cosworth or elsewhere. These are reasons why there is such a big difference in the price tag, oh there's profit margins as well! You have to decide if the tvr stuff is such good quality it warrants the higher price tag, if not buy from Ray.

[davidn]

Had a 500 V8D short engine fitted by Austec last month, £2612 + VAT for engine, 16 hours labour (although a lot of this was down to the initial fault diagnosis)- £712 + VAT. I don't know how long it would take to change an engine but I guess 8 hours sounds reasonable.
Can recommend both.
Cheers
David

[IPAddis]

Boosted LS1 said:

Both engines will have a cross-bolted block probably linered to 96mm.

Standard TVR blocks are not cross bolted. At least mine wasn't until I got V8D to do it.

I think it's unfair to blame TVR for unreliable engines (although they have their moments) without first finding out why the crank broke. I know one bloke snapped his by regularly revving it to 7,000rpm+
He got very little sympathy from anyone! I'm not suggesting you did that, but maybe there was a fault with the engine that was not caused by TVR (maybe a previous owner).

Having said that, if I was getting a new engine, I would get a V8D one and not a TVR one.

Ian A.

[swill]

IPAddis said:

Boosted LS1 said: Both engines will have a cross-bolted block probably linered to 96mm. Standard TVR blocks are not cross bolted. At least mine wasn't until I got V8D to do it. I think it's unfair to blame TVR for unreliable engines (although they have their moments) without first finding out why the crank broke. I know one bloke snapped his by regularly revving it to 7,000rpm+ He got very little sympathy from anyone! I'm not suggesting you did that, but maybe there was a fault with the engine that was not caused by TVR (maybe a previous owner). Having said that, if I was getting a new engine, I would get a V8D one and not a TVR one. Ian A.

Hi - Thanks for input, I wasn't intending to blame TVR for their engines being unreliable, although wish I do wish i'd known about this fault before buying one. Obviously it's my own fault for lack of research etc - but having V8 Developments basically laugh at the poor performance of the standard engine - and subsequently being told that the crank on these engines can go at any given time etc bemused me. It took me months/years to save for this car and spoke to many people about them, and no-one mentioned this issue. Speaking to Peninsula recently, it appears they come across this problem very regularly.
I agree on the issue of revving, mine's fitted with a rev-limiter, so can't exceed 5,500 rpm anyway, and wasn't even close to that when it broke down. Of course I don't know how the previous owner had treated the car, I do know it had a full rebuild by TVR Power 6k before I bought it..
Of course, it's also a shame that I didn't know about this website until after i'd bought one either, as apart from owners/dealers didn't know where else to go for advice at the time.

Thanks again for everyones advices on this - Swill

[Boosted LS1]

IPAddis said:

Standard TVR blocks are not cross bolted. At least mine wasn't until I got V8D to do it. Ian A.

Must be quite an old casing as they have been cross-bolted for yonks. Or, tvr have plenty of early stock to use up? The tiff will be using 2.300" crank main bearing journals whereas the newer casings are 2.500" so there is a strength advantage with a V8D crossbolted bottom end.

[greenv8s]

Its a shame that you've got major engine problems, and in your situation I think I'd be pi55ed off too. But I don't think this is symptomatic of a general reliability problem with the Rover engines from TVR Power or any of the other Rover V8 specialists.

I'm not aware of broken RV8 cranks being a common problem so I'm surprised Peninsula told you this. As far as V8D dissing TVR Power goes, V8D build good engines for a fair price (I've got one of theirs in the V8S and very happy with it) but they aren't building them by the thousand as TVR Power were when yours was built. I don't know how the aftermarket TVR Power engines compare to V8D etc in terms of price and performance, but remember these guys are all in direct competition with each other so take all this stuff with a pinch of salt.

>> Edited by greenv8s on Thursday 10th June 14:17

[ATG]

How does a crankshaft manage to snap? Is it a case of fatigue in the crank itself leading to it cracking, or is it the end result of a chain of other failures (e.g. bearing fails, crank goes wibbly wobbly (technical term), followed by a loud bang)?

>> Edited by ATG on Thursday 10th June 14:18

[Digga]

Boosted LS1 said:

There are differences I think. You will pay a premium if it's been built by tvr. The tvr may have a custom fully counterbalanced crank shaft in it, (I can make those but it takes time). A V8d engine will most likely use a stroked 4.6 crank (nothing wrong with and that's a much cheaper route).

Not that I claim any expertise in this field, but won't a longer stroke (i.e. smaller bore) engine always struggle to rev as freely and smoothly than an equivalent shorter stroke/bigger bore lump?

Also, as ATG asks, why does a crank (generally) snap? I assume cumulative wear in bearings and/or journals (especially if this causes any cross-sectional reduction in the crank) would be the case, but again, I don't profess to know this .

Oh, and what is 'cross-bolting' of the block, and would my '98 Griff have it?

And if a tree falls in a wood, but there's nobody there to hear it does....

[shpub]

I broke my first cerbie crank in two places. A con rod bolt sheared and a piston became one with the heads which caused other pistone to meld with the heads and the crank shaft decided it was not going to play. Because the crank broke the flywheel detached and shattered the clutch which shot peaned the bell housing and bits and stripped 16 teeth of the gearbox lay shaft. Surprisingly the engine needed a bit of TLC after that.

All this while showing an ex BMW Touring Car what acceleration really is at Snetterton...

Those nice people at TVR said it shouldn't have happened and gave me a nice new engine etc FOC.

>> Edited by shpub on Thursday 10th June 15:50

[Digga]

Son in your case, the crank snapping was just a symptom of another component failure, but do you think bearing/journal/crank wear alone could be sufficient to case a crank to snap?

[shpub]

Digga said:

Son in your case, the crank snapping was just a symptom of another component failure, but do you think bearing/journal/crank wear alone could be sufficient to case a crank to snap?

Anything is possible. If it goes it shrapnels most things so it can be difficult to see what has gone wrong. Oil pressure failure causing a bearing to seize and the bearings will be gone. How would you describe that?

However.. you could really worry about this and have a heart attack... or spend many thousands of pounds stripping the engine and chceking for wear and replacing parts just in case every few months and then find that the car was written off in an accident... or simply enjoy the car, get it serviced regularly, check the oil levels and keep the revs down until warm. Stopping the engine if there is no oil pressure.

Either way, if the crank is going to go, there is little that can be done to predict its failure. The crank is under tremendous strain so it is not surprising that it can fail in ANY engine. However let's put it into perspective.

Can you do anything to prevent it? No not really. Not abusing the engine is about it. The later engines are stronger but develop more power usually. Again, do you want to replace the engine on the very very slim possibility that something might happen.

Does it mean it is going to happen to me? Maybe but the chances are that you will wrap the car round a lamp post first.

Best advice is not to worry about it.

[Digga]

[quote=shpub
Does it mean it is going to happen to me? Maybe but the chances are that you will wrap the car round a lamp post first.
quote]

Most likely around a tree at Loton Park!