218 or 404 camshaft??

[Grifftastic]

I'm thinking about another mod (!) to my Griff and quite fancy up-grading the cam. Anyone got any views on the differences between the popular 404 and the lesser known 218? I've heard the 218 kicks in at lower revs, doesn't need solid lifters (so no tractor-like noises) and idles better. Fancy stage 3 heads as well, but then the costs start to get realy silly..........

Would appreciate your thoughts

[2 sheds]

firstly you already have stage 3 heads, all 500s have fully ported big valve heads, the 404 is a relatively new cam developed by Rob Robertson (V8D) and Kent cams, i used one a couple of years ago but then it was still a development cam, the 218 has been around for many years and is the one that is better known throughout the industry, they are different in that the 404 requires solid lifters (as you know) and produces power beyond 6000 rpm , the 218 will produce power to around 5500 ish, both are good for torque 218 slightly more at very low revs, the 404 is awesome from 2000-6000.
Tim

[Apache]

I'll drink to that!

like 240 ft/lbs @ 1500 rpm

>> Edited by Apache on Thursday 18th September 20:39

[Guillotine]

me2

[Grifftastic]

Thanks Tim!

Funnily enough, I was advised by a dealer that the 218 only kicked in after 4000 revs which I though was a bit high for an engine that only really goes to c. 6000!
Which would you recommend based on the fact I already have your twin plenum kit with a Tornado chip?

Dave

P.S. It was good talking to you yesterday - I ordered the hoses and leads.....

[HarryW]

A straight 218 kent cam is the basis for the 'better' hydraulic cams AFAIK and IMHO . V8Developments do a hybrid version timed at 108 deg instead of the standard 112 deg, apparently this helps improve the low end manners. They now do the MC1 which is their own grind but is still loosely based on the 218, which again is an improvement on the 218 and H218.
I couldn't be ar*ed with tappets etc so plumped for the 218. I appreciate apache makes 240 lbs at 1500 rpm with the 404 and it in common with 500's climbs to over 300lbs, but in defence of the hydraulic cams my humble 4ltr still makes 240 lb at a slightly less rpm (1300) but doesn't climb to 300lbs because we all know there is no substitute for cubic inches .

Harry

[BogBeast]

What exactly is involved in adjusting a 404?
I know they have adjustable push rods, but what parts need to come off to adjust 'em? I

Is it a DIY job?

[boosted ls1]

To adjust the push rods you have to remove the intake manifold etc and gasket assembly. That is if you don't have adjustable rocker arms. To me it's all a pain as adjustment needs to be fairly frequent. I prefer stock hydraulic lifters and a turbo or 2.

[HarryW]

Not having had to do it I would imagine the plenum, trumpet base, fuel rail, injectors, intake manifold, and the Valley cover, all off the top of me 'ead and IMHO .
Before you try the adjsutment

harry

[2 sheds]

Grifftastic said:

Thanks Tim! Funnily enough, I was advised by a dealer that the 218 only kicked in after 4000 revs which I though was a bit high for an engine that only really goes to c. 6000! Which would you recommend based on the fact I already have your twin plenum kit with a Tornado chip? Dave P.S. It was good talking to you yesterday - I ordered the hoses and leads.....

Hi Dave, i didn't know we were talking to you.
Either cam is OK, my preference is 404 mainly for the extra power and i like the idea of each valve being perfectly adjusted, the 218 or as Harry suggested MC1 are a bit tamer, although with the twin plenum you have an extra 500 revs at the top of the power band anyway, and hydraulic cams have the benefit of no adjustment.
The pushrods that V8 developments use for the 404 can be adjusted from the rockers (they adjust at the very top of the pushrod) so its just a case of removing the rocker covers about 1 hrs work. adjust after 1000 miles then at 6000 intervals is recommended.
I'll happily talk it through with you in more detail.
Tim

[HarryW]

2 sheds said:

The pushrods that V8 developments use for the 404 can be adjusted from the rockers (they adjust at the very top of the pushrod) so its just a case of removing the rocker covers about 1 hrs work. adjust after 1000 miles then at 6000 intervals is recommended.

really.............................no I won't go there, not to at least I've seen before and after figures for a 4ltr , besides I've got a few other things to do first

Harry

[IPAddis]

Apache said:

I'll drink to that! like 240 ft/lbs @ 1500 rpm >> Edited by Apache on Thursday 18th September 20:39

Is this for a 404?

IIRC, my MC1 cammed 500 puts out over 300lb/ft at 1500rpm, rising to over 350lb/ft at 3500rpm.

What's the peak hp on your car Apache?

I guess comparisons from the same engine are probably better.

Ian A.

[Apache]

will get a power check done soon as I've had a few hiccups

[shpub]

Grifftastic said:

Thanks Tim! Funnily enough, I was advised by a dealer that the 218 only kicked in after 4000 revs which I though was a bit high for an engine that only really goes to c. 6000!

Utter crap...

The 500s were fitted with a hybrid 218 cam as standard and certainly don't have a 4000 power band. My 500 is pulling 290 lb/ft torque at 1500 revs and is smooth as a proverbial.

Hydraulic tappets as well so there isn't the hassle of getting them adjusted every other trip which can happen with solid lifters.

Personally I would go with the 218 cam for a road car because it is very smooth to drive the car and get the big throttle body, jag air flow and Mark Adams rechip.

[Grifftastic]

Steve,

Thanks for the advice. Since my Griff is a 500, is there much point going for the 218, on the basis that I already have the hybrid version?

Dave

[HarryW]

Best to wait for Steve to reply.................................................. , but I was under the impression that 500's had a TVR grind cam which is the TVR435 which is not considered a great one. It can be significantly improved on by any of the affore mentioned ones IMHO. Even the boggo standard TVR51 cam fitted to the lesser versions has a better press, again IMHO.
Thinking aloud now some early 500's may even have the 234 cam which was fitted to the SEAC's it is apparently lumpy at the bottom end but does produce the power though.
Ususal disclaimers AIMHO and probably complete crap..............but hey complete crap is beter than no crap .

Harry

[just trouble]

Hello Fell's.Just to chip in my ten penith worth a mate of mine has a V8s and has just changed his cam to a 218 and is well impressed with the extra performance and say's he gets wheel spin in second gear! My Griff 400 is having the same upgrade in a couple of weeks cant wait

[GreenV8S]

just trouble said:

Hello Fell's.Just to chip in my ten penith worth a mate of mine has a V8s and has just changed his cam to a 218 and is well impressed with the extra performance and say's he gets wheel spin in second gear! My Griff 400 is having the same upgrade in a couple of weeks cant wait

Yeah, I had some tyres like that once!

Seriously, the peak torque may go up but not dramatically, I would expect the main difference to be that the torque stays in at higher revs. Even with a hot cam and heads, a 4.0 is going to struggle to spin the wheels in first on a dry road unless provoked, and it will take a lot of provocation to spin the wheels in second. (My nicely tuned 4.6 can just about put down full power in first on a dry road if I'm careful, and puts it down fairly easily in second.)

[HarryW]

Glad you said that Peter, thought mine was worse than it actually is .
Poor or damp surfaces yes, good and dry , extremely difficult. I like to think this is why they can get the power down a bit better and pull away a bit quicker than some .

Harry

[shpub]

HarryW said:

Best to wait for Steve to reply..

The 500 has had a load of different cams fitted but the majority have the Hybrid 218.

Cam choice to be honest gets a bit religious. The most important facts are that you need one and it should be cam shaped and not worn. Unless you are going serious nutter mode, anything else starts to make the car unpleasent to drive.