Dragons Den type investor wanted with £6k - Manchester!
Discussion
Cornish Delight said:
Doh, I'm sure some of you 'experts' on here think I woke up this morning & thought "I know what, I think I will open a pasty shop"
Now 1st things 1st before I spend 8 weeks researching the product, doing costings for staff, equipment, suppliers & competitors etc... I will put an advert on PH looking for another dope to share the risk & debt + the inevitable doom & gloom of failure! only debts & eventual forclosure & suicide to look forward too... Doh, if ony I had a brain!
OP, without wishing to sound rude; as an investor, this attitude would concern me more than your business model.Now 1st things 1st before I spend 8 weeks researching the product, doing costings for staff, equipment, suppliers & competitors etc... I will put an advert on PH looking for another dope to share the risk & debt + the inevitable doom & gloom of failure! only debts & eventual forclosure & suicide to look forward too... Doh, if ony I had a brain!
Just because you have spent "8 weeks" researching doesn't make you automatically right. How do you suspect an investor would percieve you as a result of reading this thread? Business is often more about people skills than anything else during the early days. You are your product. Investors invest in people as much as ideas.
Your resistance to starting small, i.e. mobile concerns me. It is easy to conclude that ego is an issue for you. Surely testing the market in this way is a wholly sensible thing to do?
For instance, in my own line of work, I would never consider opening a full time martial arts academy in a town without having tested the water with some low cost, church-hall based classes. To do otherwise would be insanity. Just because a model works in one town provides no guarantee of its success elsewhere.
Isn't Bury a football town? I know there is lots of competition with regard to mobile units, but there is a lot of competition in town centres too. Mobile is the way for you to start. You can go to the people instead of the other way around. Just because you are mobile doesn't mean you should stop thinking about building a local brand. See it as the stepping stone to raising your own money to open a shop without investors, a shop whose name/products the people are already familiar with.
Other than good luck, the only other thing I would say is this: PH has a wealth of knowledge and experience on most subjects so don't dismiss out of hand any constructive criticism or questions that come your way. Believe me, most folks here are only trying to help!
It will never work. If it did, the most sucessful clotted cream maker in Cornwall (Roddas)would sell their clotted cream throughout the UK. As it is it is only sold in major supermarkets in Devon and Cornwall. They only supply British Airways (amongst others) because they guarantee to deliver it fresh every day which results in a 7.5 tonne fridge tramping the M5/M4 corridor at stupid o'clock every morning.
Pasties outside of Cornwall are largely a 5 minute wonder. The novelty will last a couple of months and then you will struggle. Most of your profit will come from the added extras such as drinks and crisps. You will need to sell an awfully large number of pasties and Coke just to stand still.
I like your idea (being a Cornishman) but you are sadly wrapped up in the romantic notion of the whole thing. Cornwall to the Cornish may seem like Ireland to the Irish (and a few 3rd generation Americans) but to anyone else it's just another county.
Why not open a jellied eels shop? After all there must be more 'cock sparras' in Bury than ex-pat Cornish/pasty lovers.
Lastly, anyone who wants genuine Cornish pasties, you can buy as many as you like online. As well as Roddas cream.
There's nothing unique or special about this proposal. Sorry OP, this is not a winner.
Pasties outside of Cornwall are largely a 5 minute wonder. The novelty will last a couple of months and then you will struggle. Most of your profit will come from the added extras such as drinks and crisps. You will need to sell an awfully large number of pasties and Coke just to stand still.
I like your idea (being a Cornishman) but you are sadly wrapped up in the romantic notion of the whole thing. Cornwall to the Cornish may seem like Ireland to the Irish (and a few 3rd generation Americans) but to anyone else it's just another county.
Why not open a jellied eels shop? After all there must be more 'cock sparras' in Bury than ex-pat Cornish/pasty lovers.
Lastly, anyone who wants genuine Cornish pasties, you can buy as many as you like online. As well as Roddas cream.
There's nothing unique or special about this proposal. Sorry OP, this is not a winner.
Alfa_75_Steve said:
fesuvious said:
and thats just the thought line I was taking........
six grand is not exactly huge.
That's a worry in itself - I can't see how you can get all the equipment needed for the £12k total investment.six grand is not exactly huge.
I can see £6k disappearing without trace very quickly, though.
Cornish Delight said:
To all you lucky muslims (I'm thinking of converting) see link below for Muslim only interest free business loans, sorry no Cristians allowed!
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail...
I hope the rest of your research is better quality. No interest does not equate to no cost.http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail...
I don't see how you are going to set up for £12K. I don't like your attitude when potential investors question things. Not mentioning the new development and your response when asked about it doesn't look good to me either.
What happened to your previous businesses? Property development, number plate broker, car broker?
Cornish Delight said:
Doh, I'm sure some of you 'experts' on here think I woke up this morning & thought "I know what, I think I will open a pasty shop"
Now 1st things 1st before I spend 8 weeks researching the product, doing costings for staff, equipment, suppliers & competitors etc... I will put an advert on PH looking for another dope to share the risk & debt + the inevitable doom & gloom of failure! only debts & eventual forclosure & suicide to look forward too... Doh, if ony I had a brain!
Not a particularly good attitude. My question regarding staff costs was a fairly basic one which you hadn't addressed in your initial proposal and still haven't answered. I am also a little concerned that you seem to think that finding a break-even point makes you a pessimist.Now 1st things 1st before I spend 8 weeks researching the product, doing costings for staff, equipment, suppliers & competitors etc... I will put an advert on PH looking for another dope to share the risk & debt + the inevitable doom & gloom of failure! only debts & eventual forclosure & suicide to look forward too... Doh, if ony I had a brain!
On that basis, I'm Ouuuuut.
Can't call at the moment - but I'll message you my number so you can call me at a more convenient time.
Interested in how the equipment breaks down @ £5k.
That's the price for one re-vent oven of the required size, alone.
Cheap hot hold cabinets can be found - but I'd be looking for a full deli-style hot serve-over for this kind of use - which means you can probably say that £8k has gone on 2 pieces of equipment alone!
I'm not saying it's a dead in the water idea - and it can obviously be made to work in some places - but Bury is unlikely to be one of them - although that's the reason why you can get a good deal on premises.
Interested in how the equipment breaks down @ £5k.
That's the price for one re-vent oven of the required size, alone.
Cheap hot hold cabinets can be found - but I'd be looking for a full deli-style hot serve-over for this kind of use - which means you can probably say that £8k has gone on 2 pieces of equipment alone!
I'm not saying it's a dead in the water idea - and it can obviously be made to work in some places - but Bury is unlikely to be one of them - although that's the reason why you can get a good deal on premises.
just to make things clear i admire anybody that starts a new business. but why would you approach strangers on a website where you are new? surely you could raise £6k from friends and family?
also you seem to offering a lot of equity,this smells of desperation to me.there is a lot of used equipment out there which is a s good as new. catering establishments shut every day. maybe if you buy right you may not need a partner. also i wwould find a partner who would be working alongside you
also you seem to offering a lot of equity,this smells of desperation to me.there is a lot of used equipment out there which is a s good as new. catering establishments shut every day. maybe if you buy right you may not need a partner. also i wwould find a partner who would be working alongside you
Hi Cornish,
I appreciate that you are keen to start this venture, and probably see it as a positive move forward.
This initial concerns to me would be
You need income. Most start up companies absorb money, they dont make it.
Your personal borrowing facility isnt good, which means that the terms you get from suppliers wont be good. Again, this will remove income from the business that you need, and that the business needs.
The more succesful the business is, the harder ti will be for you. Without great terms you could be paying for stock before you sell it.
you are willing to sign a lease on premises, but not on equiptment. The lease would assist in cashflow, be better for your tax liabilities (assuming you make a profit at some point) and you could view the lessor as an investor in your venture.
Whether or not there is sufficient footfall and requirement to sell your pasties only you can advise. Personally i do enjoy a pasty, or a pie, but not as a daily snack. maybe once a month each.
Another option, and one that I would consider, is that you get a couple of investors to share the risk. That would also allow you to use different people for their differing skills.
maybe look for one with legal knowledge, one with retail, and I would be looking for an online presence. (can you ship frozen pies?)
I appreciate that you are keen to start this venture, and probably see it as a positive move forward.
This initial concerns to me would be
You need income. Most start up companies absorb money, they dont make it.
Your personal borrowing facility isnt good, which means that the terms you get from suppliers wont be good. Again, this will remove income from the business that you need, and that the business needs.
The more succesful the business is, the harder ti will be for you. Without great terms you could be paying for stock before you sell it.
you are willing to sign a lease on premises, but not on equiptment. The lease would assist in cashflow, be better for your tax liabilities (assuming you make a profit at some point) and you could view the lessor as an investor in your venture.
Whether or not there is sufficient footfall and requirement to sell your pasties only you can advise. Personally i do enjoy a pasty, or a pie, but not as a daily snack. maybe once a month each.
Another option, and one that I would consider, is that you get a couple of investors to share the risk. That would also allow you to use different people for their differing skills.
maybe look for one with legal knowledge, one with retail, and I would be looking for an online presence. (can you ship frozen pies?)
My point that you don't seem to have seen is this:
York is a tourist destination - Bury isn't. People of Bury are not dying to buy Cornish pasties. If they were, believe me there would already be a pasty shop in Bury.
You are being asked fairly standard searching questions by potential investors in your idea. Most of us run our own sucessful businesses. By that last paragraph alone, we are far better qualified than you to decide if your venture has legs. Your defensive and frankly rude replies are hardly likely to endear you to us. More less likely to lend an unknown stranger £6k.
If your business acumen is so good, why have you been out of work for two years? Why have you not done what we have all done and worked all day every day to make our businesses sucessful? You could have been selling stuff for a company on a commission or the like. This would have furthered your chances by demonstrating your sucess against the odds.
I have to agree with a lot of other posters, you have not demonstrated that your research has been thorough enough. You amaze me that you think you will get people to work for nothing - even if it is simply a subsidy from the government. If you are prepared to work for low pay, it indicates that there is far more important things for the people of Bury to spend their money on - rent, gas, electric, food before they buy 'luxuries' such as Cornish pasties.
My comment about mail order pasties and cream was because Joe Public can order as much as they want and put them in their own freezers and ovens. If they want hot food immediately they are not going to think 'pasty' unless they are already in Cornwall.
York is a tourist destination - Bury isn't. People of Bury are not dying to buy Cornish pasties. If they were, believe me there would already be a pasty shop in Bury.
You are being asked fairly standard searching questions by potential investors in your idea. Most of us run our own sucessful businesses. By that last paragraph alone, we are far better qualified than you to decide if your venture has legs. Your defensive and frankly rude replies are hardly likely to endear you to us. More less likely to lend an unknown stranger £6k.
If your business acumen is so good, why have you been out of work for two years? Why have you not done what we have all done and worked all day every day to make our businesses sucessful? You could have been selling stuff for a company on a commission or the like. This would have furthered your chances by demonstrating your sucess against the odds.
I have to agree with a lot of other posters, you have not demonstrated that your research has been thorough enough. You amaze me that you think you will get people to work for nothing - even if it is simply a subsidy from the government. If you are prepared to work for low pay, it indicates that there is far more important things for the people of Bury to spend their money on - rent, gas, electric, food before they buy 'luxuries' such as Cornish pasties.
My comment about mail order pasties and cream was because Joe Public can order as much as they want and put them in their own freezers and ovens. If they want hot food immediately they are not going to think 'pasty' unless they are already in Cornwall.
Tyre smoke:
You are obviously successful at the taxi business in Devon, but have you actually ever been to Bury in Lanacashire?
I stopped 30 people within20 minutes in the street where my shop is who were eating Greggs pasties & they all said they would happily pay a bit extra for a 'proper' hot cornish pasty, I also asked local shop keepers / workers & local suppliers, a total of about 80 people + whenever I'm out in the pubs & restaurants in Bury & being the friendly chap I am I get talking to people & they all respond with positive comments & are looking forward to the shop opening!
So I am totally baffled by your statement saying the people of Bury won't be interested?
I don't want to talk about my pesonal life too much much but alas because of family deaths / tragedy I was out of the running for quite a while & now I feel the time is right & I'm still young enough to make a success of my life as life is so short & you never know when you are going to pop off!
I am not going to post a link to my profit & loss excel spreadsheet on here or list my outgoings / projections that is for me to show to a potential serious investor.
Also you said the people of Bury are not going to think 'Pasty' unless they are in Cornwall, well if that was the case then none of the other 18 hot food takeaways in Bury would survive!
I'm sure like most people I have food in my freezer, but I don't want to take it to work with me! In Bury people just want to grab something quick & tasty to eat while walking round the shops.
Thank you very much for taking the time to make your comments & to draw the attention of my potential investors as to anything I may not have thought of.
Regards: Michael
You are obviously successful at the taxi business in Devon, but have you actually ever been to Bury in Lanacashire?
I stopped 30 people within20 minutes in the street where my shop is who were eating Greggs pasties & they all said they would happily pay a bit extra for a 'proper' hot cornish pasty, I also asked local shop keepers / workers & local suppliers, a total of about 80 people + whenever I'm out in the pubs & restaurants in Bury & being the friendly chap I am I get talking to people & they all respond with positive comments & are looking forward to the shop opening!
So I am totally baffled by your statement saying the people of Bury won't be interested?
I don't want to talk about my pesonal life too much much but alas because of family deaths / tragedy I was out of the running for quite a while & now I feel the time is right & I'm still young enough to make a success of my life as life is so short & you never know when you are going to pop off!
I am not going to post a link to my profit & loss excel spreadsheet on here or list my outgoings / projections that is for me to show to a potential serious investor.
Also you said the people of Bury are not going to think 'Pasty' unless they are in Cornwall, well if that was the case then none of the other 18 hot food takeaways in Bury would survive!
I'm sure like most people I have food in my freezer, but I don't want to take it to work with me! In Bury people just want to grab something quick & tasty to eat while walking round the shops.
Thank you very much for taking the time to make your comments & to draw the attention of my potential investors as to anything I may not have thought of.
Regards: Michael
1 said:
Cornish Delight said:
Doh, I'm sure some of you 'experts' on here think I woke up this morning & thought "I know what, I think I will open a pasty shop"
Now 1st things 1st before I spend 8 weeks researching the product, doing costings for staff, equipment, suppliers & competitors etc... I will put an advert on PH looking for another dope to share the risk & debt + the inevitable doom & gloom of failure! only debts & eventual forclosure & suicide to look forward too... Doh, if ony I had a brain!
Not a particularly good attitude. My question regarding staff costs was a fairly basic one which you hadn't addressed in your initial proposal and still haven't answered. I am also a little concerned that you seem to think that finding a break-even point makes you a pessimist.Now 1st things 1st before I spend 8 weeks researching the product, doing costings for staff, equipment, suppliers & competitors etc... I will put an advert on PH looking for another dope to share the risk & debt + the inevitable doom & gloom of failure! only debts & eventual forclosure & suicide to look forward too... Doh, if ony I had a brain!
On that basis, I'm Ouuuuut.
The comments might be covering something you've already thought of, hell, they might not be relevant at all, but you just need to re-iterate your point rather than being defensive, as though someone is "bashing" your idea...
Regarding Alfa Steve's comments - Clearly this chap has a wealth of knowledge about what you're trying to get into. You cannot dismis the large supermarkets taking market share away from you. Your main argument is that the quality of food is lower than what you're offering. I'm afraid that if Tesco/Sainsburys/Morrisons and indeed Waitrose think that they will win over all your business by simply telling their supplier to put a bit more meat in the pasty or cook onsite, they will do it - and your market _may_ shrink over night. (See post about local Dominos being very upset. Would they be upset if they didn't notice sales going down?)
One of our customers runs a food manufacturing business, selling _high quality_ meals to older people.
Over the last 30 years they have actually shrunk in size, even with TV advertising and national franchisees.
People are now buying food from M&S/Waitrose, which is also very high quality, but convenient.
(M&S two dine for £10 promotion, high quality meals, lots of M&S now in petrol stations in surrey to appeal to different demograhic, petrol stationns also selling pastys and have ovens onsite).
As another point, you should plan to get more investment than you need.
£6k really isn't a lot, especially for 50% of the business which you are working without wages for. What risk is there? It's all your risk entirely, you have bills to pay and commitments to maintain, you should be drawing at least £500 a per month from the business (tax free), to cover your own costs, otherwise it's not realistic.
What if an oven broke, or your window was smashed, or you needed to get extra help/set up accounts with suppliers and they wanted cash rather than trade account because you don't have a trading track record?
Your business may collapse because you can't raise a few hundred quid - if you go back to investor he might take more equity for a small amount of extra money. Then you are working 6 days a week 12 hours a day, without wages, for 30-40% of less percentage of the company? He may as well be employing you as slave labour.
I would say that you need to at least increase any prediction you need for investment by 50%-100%. If you don't spend the money, and it sits in an account, at least it's a safe guard and helps you with cash flow should you need it.
We're setting up another business venture and have been talking to investors. Initially we requested £75k to prove the concept and get the business going. We were met with skepticism. "How can you start a business with only £75k?". After we explained that our main company provides all the software/set up required, for a % of equity in the new company, they could then see it was viable.
However after some negotiating, it turned out that the amount of money is not really the issue to the investor, % of equity is.
The investor wanted 49% of the business if he provided 75k or 250k, so we're going for the larger sum of money in order to mass market when the business is launched, and have enough reserve to have sub-contractors oncall in case there are any technical issues.
Sorry for the ramble but maybe you might find something useful in that lot...
Also, one think I've learnt quickly is... try not to take things personally... easier said than done!
Best of luck.
Cornish Delight said:
I stopped 30 people within20 minutes in the street where my shop is who were eating Greggs pasties & they all said they would happily pay a bit extra for a 'proper' hot cornish pasty, I also asked local shop keepers / workers & local suppliers, a total of about 80 people + whenever I'm out in the pubs & restaurants in Bury & being the friendly chap I am I get talking to people & they all respond with positive comments & are looking forward to the shop opening!
So I am totally baffled by your statement saying the people of Bury won't be interested?
I would be very wary of the usefulness of your "survey" if I were you. There is a good chance that you have inadvertantly skewed it towards the result you are searching for. Not intentionally, I have no doubt; how much weight has this result given to your decision regarding the viability of the business?So I am totally baffled by your statement saying the people of Bury won't be interested?
Any chance you could post the questions you asked and how you went about getting your answers?
Effective market research has to be got right, if you are going to make calls based upon its results.
stuart-b said:
Regarding Alfa Steve's comments - Clearly this chap has a wealth of knowledge about what you're trying to get into. You cannot dismis the large supermarkets taking market share away from you. Your main argument is that the quality of food is lower than what you're offering. I'm afraid that if Tesco/Sainsburys/Morrisons and indeed Waitrose think that they will win over all your business by simply telling their supplier to put a bit more meat in the pasty or cook onsite, they will do it - and your market _may_ shrink over night. (See post about local Dominos being very upset. Would they be upset if they didn't notice sales going down?)
I'd suggest that the OP goes and looks at what the supermarkets are doing - we're selling hand crimped Cornish pasties, in regular steak and Reggae Reggae chicken varieties for £1.49. 'Standard' peppered steak / chicken & mushroom and cheese slices are £1.12 and a premium pork sausage roll is only 73p (not to be mixed up with the Greggs offering - ours are egg glazed, rather than oil glazed).The ovens we use are of the kind which cost £5k for a *refurbished* item, to ensure consistent quality.
IME, it's a very hard market to corner, even for a huge operation like ours - Greggs have it sewn up - mostly because people won't pay £2+ for a lunchtime snack.
There used to be a large chain in South Wales which built its business along the same lines as Greggs, and even supplied local branches of large supermarkets with fresh crusty bread and pastries - the entire chain, including manufacturing plant, was brought down twice by the failings of the high street operation in recent years. (Lucky escape - I very nearly accepted an offer to be their retail ops. manager only 6 months before they went under for the 2nd and final time).
If this can happen to a large, established company, which was making its own products..... then it can easily happen to a start-up operation which is reliant on a single supplier for their main product line.
Alfa_75_Steve said:
stuart-b said:
Regarding Alfa Steve's comments - Clearly this chap has a wealth of knowledge about what you're trying to get into. You cannot dismis the large supermarkets taking market share away from you. Your main argument is that the quality of food is lower than what you're offering. I'm afraid that if Tesco/Sainsburys/Morrisons and indeed Waitrose think that they will win over all your business by simply telling their supplier to put a bit more meat in the pasty or cook onsite, they will do it - and your market _may_ shrink over night. (See post about local Dominos being very upset. Would they be upset if they didn't notice sales going down?)
I'd suggest that the OP goes and looks at what the supermarkets are doing - we're selling hand crimped Cornish pasties, in regular steak and Reggae Reggae chicken varieties for £1.49. 'Standard' peppered steak / chicken & mushroom and cheese slices are £1.12 and a premium pork sausage roll is only 73p (not to be mixed up with the Greggs offering - ours are egg glazed, rather than oil glazed).The ovens we use are of the kind which cost £5k for a *refurbished* item, to ensure consistent quality.
IME, it's a very hard market to corner, even for a huge operation like ours - Greggs have it sewn up - mostly because people won't pay £2+ for a lunchtime snack.
There used to be a large chain in South Wales which built its business along the same lines as Greggs, and even supplied local branches of large supermarkets with fresh crusty bread and pastries - the entire chain, including manufacturing plant, was brought down twice by the failings of the high street operation in recent years. (Lucky escape - I very nearly accepted an offer to be their retail ops. manager only 6 months before they went under for the 2nd and final time).
If this can happen to a large, established company, which was making its own products..... then it can easily happen to a start-up operation which is reliant on a single supplier for their main product line.
Anyone can work for free - a business needs to provide wages to be viable.
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