Starting a nice cafe
Discussion
mattdaniels said:
Because we are habit creatures. 95% of us already have our daily routine nailed, we go to work 5 days a week on the same train, we stand on the same square inch of platform, we try to get there 15 seconds before the other guy who attempts to steal our door position. We know which armpit to crouch under, which eye contact to avoid and which lane to merge in to at the other end to get through the ticket barriers in the fastest possible time and on to our work trajectory via our usual caffeine fix location.
That's actually very sad - not least because the 95% are spending £3 when they could take a Thermos for 10p. mattdaniels said:
Good luck with your 5%. Not a chance IMHO.
Maybe not in commuterland but I think 'better/faster/cheaper/USP' is still a good formula for starters.However do not make the mistake a local company made... they started a fast food place called 'Queen Burger' and had a pink facia. Naturally being a person of linear sexuality I gave it a wide berth expecting it to be full of Freddie Mercury types in leather caps waving vacuum cleaners about. Only much later, after it had gone bust, did I discover that it had been a tragic attempt to ape 'Burger King'. They thought 'King Burger' was too close so chose 'Queen Burger'. They were totally blind to the resulting image!
Simpo Two said:
mattdaniels said:
Because we are habit creatures. 95% of us already have our daily routine nailed, we go to work 5 days a week on the same train, we stand on the same square inch of platform, we try to get there 15 seconds before the other guy who attempts to steal our door position. We know which armpit to crouch under, which eye contact to avoid and which lane to merge in to at the other end to get through the ticket barriers in the fastest possible time and on to our work trajectory via our usual caffeine fix location.
That's actually very sad - not least because the 95% are spending £3 when they could take a Thermos for 10p. mattdaniels said:
Good luck with your 5%. Not a chance IMHO.
Maybe not in commuterland but I think 'better/faster/cheaper/USP' is still a good formula for starters.However do not make the mistake a local company made... they started a fast food place called 'Queen Burger' and had a pink facia. Naturally being a person of linear sexuality I gave it a wide berth expecting it to be full of Freddie Mercury types in leather caps waving vacuum cleaners about. Only much later, after it had gone bust, did I discover that it had been a tragic attempt to ape 'Burger King'. They thought 'King Burger' was too close so chose 'Queen Burger'. They were totally blind to the resulting image!
Stryke said:
Jem0911 said:
Go mobile?
Cheaper than a fixed location.
If it doesn't work move.
Not so easy, a very 'controlled' area, i.e. underworld...Cheaper than a fixed location.
If it doesn't work move.
In a small suburb of Notts ( West Bridgford ) there's a Nero's.
There is also two other independent coffe shops, one of which is also a very good continental Deli.
All 3 operate side by side and all 3 seem to be doing very well.
One of the independents have opened another shop in a village near by and the other has been in it's place for over 10 years.
It seems given the correct location and clientele, all can operate quite healthily.
Good luck with whatever you do, Dave.
(something I'd love to try, as I'm very fond of coffee, but haven't got the balls to do)
There is also two other independent coffe shops, one of which is also a very good continental Deli.
All 3 operate side by side and all 3 seem to be doing very well.
One of the independents have opened another shop in a village near by and the other has been in it's place for over 10 years.
It seems given the correct location and clientele, all can operate quite healthily.
Good luck with whatever you do, Dave.
(something I'd love to try, as I'm very fond of coffee, but haven't got the balls to do)
Zip106 said:
In a small suburb of Notts ( West Bridgford ) there's a Nero's.
There is also two other independent coffe shops, one of which is also a very good continental Deli.
All 3 operate side by side and all 3 seem to be doing very well.
One of the independents have opened another shop in a village near by and the other has been in it's place for over 10 years.
It seems given the correct location and clientele, all can operate quite healthily.
Good luck with whatever you do, Dave.
(something I'd love to try, as I'm very fond of coffee, but haven't got the balls to do)
This is where I come from. OK 95% of people has heard of StarBucks, Neros etc, but me, walking along a high street wondering which coffee shop to visit, I'll look at each one I pass noting how crowded, how clean, how well presented, how nice the seating/table arrangement, what view I get etc.There is also two other independent coffe shops, one of which is also a very good continental Deli.
All 3 operate side by side and all 3 seem to be doing very well.
One of the independents have opened another shop in a village near by and the other has been in it's place for over 10 years.
It seems given the correct location and clientele, all can operate quite healthily.
Good luck with whatever you do, Dave.
(something I'd love to try, as I'm very fond of coffee, but haven't got the balls to do)
For instance take two identical coffee shops, one is Starbucks, one is SuperCafe, given they are _identical_ in this example - which one would you choose, and how?
I think the key is not too make it feel like a cafe but like a coffeeshop that does nice food.
Getting the signage, merchandising (including cups, plates etc) and layout right is the key with any venture like this. Even something as simple as having the wrong type of entrance door can course a problem. And getting the 'Landing Area' feel right is key.
You need to be able to get people in and out as fast as possible, alot of people just want to grab a coffee while shopping or are on a lunchbreak but intice them into buying a cake or a sandwich on the way through.
Price in the current climate is the most important factor, closely followed by quality & Availability. So decent coffee half the price of starbucks will intice people in if you get the signage right.
You need to have a couple of months looking at your target demographic, if its little old ladies then their is no point selling buckets of coffee.
Always remember in business you dont do what you find the most fun or what you want to do, you do whatever will keep your business afloat, create turnover and turn a profit.
Getting the signage, merchandising (including cups, plates etc) and layout right is the key with any venture like this. Even something as simple as having the wrong type of entrance door can course a problem. And getting the 'Landing Area' feel right is key.
You need to be able to get people in and out as fast as possible, alot of people just want to grab a coffee while shopping or are on a lunchbreak but intice them into buying a cake or a sandwich on the way through.
Price in the current climate is the most important factor, closely followed by quality & Availability. So decent coffee half the price of starbucks will intice people in if you get the signage right.
You need to have a couple of months looking at your target demographic, if its little old ladies then their is no point selling buckets of coffee.
Always remember in business you dont do what you find the most fun or what you want to do, you do whatever will keep your business afloat, create turnover and turn a profit.
Edited by Odie on Friday 31st December 12:29
Edit for getting distracted and missing bits outEdited by Odie on Friday 31st December 12:30
I think Starbucks win by making it difficult to open a bad coffee shop, as the essential design has been done properly back at HQ.
As said above, it needs to be inviting and easy to buy stuff in. Make it easy to customers to enter and spend and they will. Try and avoid making it too comfortable though, or you'll get people staying for 2 hours with a single cup of tea!
As said above, it needs to be inviting and easy to buy stuff in. Make it easy to customers to enter and spend and they will. Try and avoid making it too comfortable though, or you'll get people staying for 2 hours with a single cup of tea!
elster said:
Look at the example that I saw in NY
Le Pain Quotidien
They have a similar set up to Starbucks except with a rustic decor and French food obviously.
LPQ are very nice and a good business role model for the OP style- and menu-wise; Belgian in origin and I regularly use them in Paris. There's one in Marylebone (haven't used it) if the OP fancied a trip out.Le Pain Quotidien
They have a similar set up to Starbucks except with a rustic decor and French food obviously.
I wouldn't describe them at all like Starbucks though; LPQ is rustic French and focusses on the food; Starbucks is s
t generic airport lounge and focusses on barely scented lukewarm milk.ETA: They've got quite a few in London now
Edited by Sour Kraut on Friday 31st December 13:29
Have only really started using Starbucks et al once our young 'un arrived. My wife (and her fellow mums) chooses these not just on what she is familiar with but on how comfy the chairs are, if she can get the massive pushchair in and if there are decent changing facilities.
The quality of the coffee and the produce is an afterthought.
Get the yummy mummy post-nursery market cornered and you are laughing.
The quality of the coffee and the produce is an afterthought.
Get the yummy mummy post-nursery market cornered and you are laughing.
i personally would say it's likely to be a fail generally speaking
how much will rent be
then rates
gas
electricity
staffing costs
wastage
insurance - public liability, contents insurance and all the other stuff
all the other red tape stuff
then you have to pay interest on the money you borrow for the coffee stuff and fitting out etc
I'd have thought you'd need to take a couple of grand a week just to break even.
what about when you want a holiday
what about when you go off sick
you could make a living - you could make a killing out of it, but likelihood is you won't.
Merry England do well although I think they are tatty but there is a drive through one in huddersfield which is always busy
Betty's tearooms in york and harrogate do well
personally I really like costa coffee and starbucks coffee and I prefer these to the 'independents' as I know what i'm getting, know the quality and know that they have all the proper stuff in place.
if you make it really stand out and really nice then i'd could work - i'd say price doesn't really matter.
how much will rent be
then rates
gas
electricity
staffing costs
wastage
insurance - public liability, contents insurance and all the other stuff
all the other red tape stuff
then you have to pay interest on the money you borrow for the coffee stuff and fitting out etc
I'd have thought you'd need to take a couple of grand a week just to break even.
what about when you want a holiday
what about when you go off sick
you could make a living - you could make a killing out of it, but likelihood is you won't.
Merry England do well although I think they are tatty but there is a drive through one in huddersfield which is always busy
Betty's tearooms in york and harrogate do well
personally I really like costa coffee and starbucks coffee and I prefer these to the 'independents' as I know what i'm getting, know the quality and know that they have all the proper stuff in place.
if you make it really stand out and really nice then i'd could work - i'd say price doesn't really matter.
soxboy said:
Have only really started using Starbucks et al once our young 'un arrived. My wife (and her fellow mums) chooses these not just on what she is familiar with but on how comfy the chairs are, if she can get the massive pushchair in and if there are decent changing facilities.
The quality of the coffee and the produce is an afterthought.
Get the yummy mummy post-nursery market cornered and you are laughing.
And nothing spoils a decent coffee shop more than kids and f**kin' buggies!The quality of the coffee and the produce is an afterthought.
Get the yummy mummy post-nursery market cornered and you are laughing.
Horses for courses, eh?
If you do go for coffee you could try sourcing & roasting your own beans - would be a way of differntiating & adding value IMO.
A local coffee seller in Newmarket just sells beans, but I like buying from him as you see all the sacks of beans and he can even sell you 'green beans' for home roasting if you want. All good fun.
Anyway, if you did roasting, you could start maybe trying to interact a bit more with customers, aid them in tasting coffee & knowing what htey like etc... a bit like wine tasting. For regulars you could hone a roast/blend specific to them (normally you should allow 24-72h after roasting for it to be at it's best, so some working out there). If you think about how cigar places work with custom humidors etc... that you can rent, that's sort of what I'm thinking about. You'd have to consider how to make it work though etc.etc...
Anyway, if you did that, you'd soon get a decent rep as loving coffee and making it properly for those that want it & could do paid for evenings etc.. (maybe even free to start with) - explaining different beans, roasts, etc and showing people how it's done. If you made a weekly thing of it maybe you'd start getting some uptake and people talking.
Once people know they like a 'blue mountain med roast with a twinge of kenyan in a blend' or something, they'll be yours forever.
Anyway, it's what I'd attempt. Obviously it sounds that food & ambience are fundamentally important, the coffeeness shouldn't be the be all and end all of the idea, but it would surely differentiate you from McCoffee. Much like a cocktail bar .v.s weatherspoons IMO.
A local coffee seller in Newmarket just sells beans, but I like buying from him as you see all the sacks of beans and he can even sell you 'green beans' for home roasting if you want. All good fun.
Anyway, if you did roasting, you could start maybe trying to interact a bit more with customers, aid them in tasting coffee & knowing what htey like etc... a bit like wine tasting. For regulars you could hone a roast/blend specific to them (normally you should allow 24-72h after roasting for it to be at it's best, so some working out there). If you think about how cigar places work with custom humidors etc... that you can rent, that's sort of what I'm thinking about. You'd have to consider how to make it work though etc.etc...
Anyway, if you did that, you'd soon get a decent rep as loving coffee and making it properly for those that want it & could do paid for evenings etc.. (maybe even free to start with) - explaining different beans, roasts, etc and showing people how it's done. If you made a weekly thing of it maybe you'd start getting some uptake and people talking.
Once people know they like a 'blue mountain med roast with a twinge of kenyan in a blend' or something, they'll be yours forever.
Anyway, it's what I'd attempt. Obviously it sounds that food & ambience are fundamentally important, the coffeeness shouldn't be the be all and end all of the idea, but it would surely differentiate you from McCoffee. Much like a cocktail bar .v.s weatherspoons IMO.
Sour Kraut said:
soxboy said:
Have only really started using Starbucks et al once our young 'un arrived. My wife (and her fellow mums) chooses these not just on what she is familiar with but on how comfy the chairs are, if she can get the massive pushchair in and if there are decent changing facilities.
The quality of the coffee and the produce is an afterthought.
Get the yummy mummy post-nursery market cornered and you are laughing.
And nothing spoils a decent coffee shop more than kids and f**kin' buggies!The quality of the coffee and the produce is an afterthought.
Get the yummy mummy post-nursery market cornered and you are laughing.
Horses for courses, eh?
hit the mummies market - my other half hates going into starbucks etc and would much rather go independent but the choice is poor - get this market right and the clientele spend good money regularly.
admittedly you need an area of young population, but worth catering for. I know you're not London based, but the same must apply, look at the day poulation of any coffee shop in clapham / twickenham / richmond and it is populated by baby buggies. there must be similar in your area.
edit! I should lay off the whisky and read the last few posts... my point still stands though!
admittedly you need an area of young population, but worth catering for. I know you're not London based, but the same must apply, look at the day poulation of any coffee shop in clapham / twickenham / richmond and it is populated by baby buggies. there must be similar in your area.
edit! I should lay off the whisky and read the last few posts... my point still stands though!
Edited by vxsmithers on Saturday 1st January 01:33
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