iPhone today?

[ehyouwhat]

kiwisr said:

ehyouwhat said:

I wonder what this will do to the prices these things fetch on eBay at the moment? Fully unlocked (as far as they can be) examples are typically bringing between £450 and £550 and require no specialised contract or indeed network.

I'm also interested as to the activation sequence with these handsets. Can anyone 'buy' one at £269, regardless of credit history? The literature seems to suggest that this is the case, and that online activation is the thing that requires credit checking and contract signing.

IIRC correctly you don't need a credit hostory to get a phone from O2, although you may be asked to leave a security deposit of £250.

Credit history, perhaps not - but O2 will perform some kind of credit check on those who apply for the phone, and people who have bad credit are likely to be declined.

I'm more interested in the fact that the system for getting an iPhone seems to be two-fold: a customer buys the handset from the store (at £269) and then, when they get home, they use the internet to sign up to a credit agreement and complete the 'activation' of the handset. If this is the case, then surely anybody can buy the actual handset regardless of how good or bad their credit is? If so then there will be certain numbers of people that manage to get their hands on the handset itself, but are denied registration due to bad credit and therefore find themselves with a non-working iPhone.

The system may have it's plus points though. I have an O2 contract at present, actually I have two. Now I quite fancy a fully-working, non-hacked, sim-free iPhone but despite what is normally the case, I can't get my hands on one. Will I therefore be able to buy one of the handsets on release (at £269) and then have my existing O2 contract changed to an iPhone-compatible one? The stuff I've read so far is quite ambiguous about the whole thing.

I've not even seen an iPhone in the 'flesh' yet.

[CommanderJameson]

ehyouwhat said:

kiwisr said:

ehyouwhat said:

I wonder what this will do to the prices these things fetch on eBay at the moment? Fully unlocked (as far as they can be) examples are typically bringing between £450 and £550 and require no specialised contract or indeed network.

I'm also interested as to the activation sequence with these handsets. Can anyone 'buy' one at £269, regardless of credit history? The literature seems to suggest that this is the case, and that online activation is the thing that requires credit checking and contract signing.

IIRC correctly you don't need a credit hostory to get a phone from O2, although you may be asked to leave a security deposit of £250.

Credit history, perhaps not - but O2 will perform some kind of credit check on those who apply for the phone, and people who have bad credit are likely to be declined.

I'm more interested in the fact that the system for getting an iPhone seems to be two-fold: a customer buys the handset from the store (at £269) and then, when they get home, they use the internet to sign up to a credit agreement and complete the 'activation' of the handset. If this is the case, then surely anybody can buy the actual handset regardless of how good or bad their credit is? If so then there will be certain numbers of people that manage to get their hands on the handset itself, but are denied registration due to bad credit and therefore find themselves with a non-working iPhone.

The system may have it's plus points though. I have an O2 contract at present, actually I have two. Now I quite fancy a fully-working, non-hacked, sim-free iPhone but despite what is normally the case, I can't get my hands on one. Will I therefore be able to buy one of the handsets on release (at £269) and then have my existing O2 contract changed to an iPhone-compatible one? The stuff I've read so far is quite ambiguous about the whole thing.

I've not even seen an iPhone in the 'flesh' yet.

hello hello hello

>>>suddenly interested in iPhone again<<<

You don't sign up for the 18 month contract until you get the thing home?

Hey, cyberface, this is your area. Would it be possible to buy a UK iPhone, take it home and not activate it, and then unlock it and bung in the SIM of my choice?

[m12_nathan]

Just buy one and don't bother activating it, hack it and stick your original sim in it. That is how all the US phones are being released into the wild...

[Civpilot]

page3 said:

Yes, i choose the iPhone route as it is similar costs to having a separate iPod Touch + phone, but far more convenient.

iPhone = £269 + 35 p/m = £899

iPod Touch (8Gb) £200
Blackberry on T-Mobile Web'n'Walk 20 (18 months) £89 + £25 p/m + £5 p/m (est. voicemail use)
= £829*

* doesn't include WiFi roaming

The iPhone seems a bargain to me!

Edited by page3 on Tuesday 18th September 12:32

but why do you need a Blackberry on "web'n'Talk 20 when the itouch has full wifi and browsing with the same web tool (safari) as the iphone? itouch also has wifi itunes, youtube link etc.

Surely you could just buy a 8gb or 16gb itouch and then get a FOC phone on a £25pm contract. Still less than the iphone and the FOC phone will invariably do its specific job better whilst the touch satisfies the web browsing/ipod/touch screen tech side of things.

Then again maybe you have just deliberatly chosen the most expensive phone possible to justify your argument

Besides, there is no way I want a contract on O2 and I will happily admit that besides the costs that is also a huge factor. Lots of people, myself included, are perfectly happy with their providers (by it O2, orange, Voda etc) so why should they have to change to only one network for the iphone?
Now release the iphone on multiple networks at the same cost and it starts to make slightly more sence. Although phone wise I still say it isnt that special at all so you are only buying into the technology, which is clearly available on the itouch for lower overall costs.

Horses for courses.. if you simply MUST HAVE the iphone then no matter what the cost, you will find a reason to buy one. If you love the tech but think about costs a bit clearer then the itouch+your exising phone is a far better option (itouch is smaller too)

[page3]

Civpilot, you see me finding a reason to buy one, where as I see you finding a reason not to!

Email is very important to me. The iPod Touch doesn't offer it. It also doesn't offer an editable diary. Hence the need for a phone that supports proper email and diary.

My tariff (on O2 as it happens) ran out 6 months ago. I moved to a PAYG (on T-mobile) as a temporary solution while waiting to see what the iPhone would cost. My budget was around £35/month as that seems to be what you need to pay on any network for unlimited data plus reasonable included minutes and texts.

My existing phone (SE M600i) whilst better than most, suffers from a primitive OS. I found Windows Mobile unusable, Series 60 primitive, and UIQ adequate. I want something better - at least up to the standard of my old Psion 5.

For me, the iPhone seems an excellent solution. For others, it might not be.

Edited by page3 on Tuesday 18th September 13:31

[Civpilot]

page3 said:

Civpilot, you see me finding a reason to buy one, where as I see you finding a reason not to!

Email is very important to me. The iPod Touch doesn't offer it. It also doesn't offer an editable diary. Hence the need for a phone that supports proper email and diary.

My tariff (on O2 as it happens) ran out 6 months ago. I moved to a PAYG (on T-mobile) as a temporary solution while waiting to see what the iPhone would cost. My budget was around £35/month as that seems to be what you need to pay on any network for unlimited data plus reasonable included minutes and texts.

My existing phone (SE M600i) whilst better than most, suffers from a primitive OS. I found Windows Mobile unusable, Series 60 primitive, and UIQ adequate. I want something better - at least up to the standard of my old Psion 5.

For me, the iPhone seems an excellent solution. For others, it might not be.

page3, I'm only messing with ya

But now you've explained why it makes sence I see where you are coming from for your needs (and I guess it's pretty lucky that the iphone contract price just happens to be the exact monthly cost you wanted it to be).

Like I said, Horses for courses. I'm more than happy with my current phone and service provider, more than happy that I can choose whatever phone I want with said provider, so the iphone is an overpriced luxury on a (IMHO) crappy network. And having just sold my old Nano and openly admit I love the touch screen interface, so the itouch makes much more sence in every way.

I also like the fact that I only ever carry my ipod with me when I want to, my phone is much smaller than the iphone so carrying something as big as the iphone everyday would be a bind, carrying the itouch occationally wouldnt be so bad.
As for email, well if I'm not at my desk at work or at home by my PC then it ain't important for me to see said email. And if something is that urgent then the sender will either call or text me.

When they release a proper 3g iphone with more than 8gb and open to all networks... then I might adopt.

[page3]

Civpilot said:

page3, I'm only messing with ya

Of course, by November 9th I might have changed my mind

The thought had crossed my mind to get an iPhone, hack it and use any contract I like. This idea is only worth doing though, if I find a tariff that suits my needs better than the O2 one for less dosh.

[cyberface]

CommanderJameson said:

hello hello hello

>>>suddenly interested in iPhone again<<<

You don't sign up for the 18 month contract until you get the thing home?

Hey, cyberface, this is your area. Would it be possible to buy a UK iPhone, take it home and not activate it, and then unlock it and bung in the SIM of my choice?

Wait until the first deliveries turn up and we find out what firmware is on the beasties. If they are released with 1.0.2 (which is vastly unlikely because of a couple of bugs that affect UK users moreso than typical US consumers) then yes, you can buy one in an Apple shop, forget the activation process and hack away as I have.

However if they release the UK iPhone with a new firmware, it could have one of two impacts (or both) - either the bugs are fixed but the existing software hack and activation spoof works fine, in which case you're golden and all the existing hackers put the new (1.0.3?) firmware onto their phones... or the new firmware breaks all the hacks and the hackers have to start from scratch. It also means all of us with hacked phones have to AVOID updating our iPhones otherwise the new firmware will be installed and will lock the phone.

It will be interesting for sure, since AT&T is NOT O2, and any firmware update for the baseband that fixes the current bugs would most likely be generic per phone (and not have two versions - one to lock to O2, and one to lock to AT&T) - I'd expect the update to respect the current locking state of the phone. This would mean that pre-unlocked phones would continue to be unlocked.

But if the new firmware itself is harder or impossible to unlock using current methods, then you're at the mercy of those good enough at reversing to bother. Given that a LOT of effort has been put into this so far, there may not be the same level of enthusiasm to unlock the smaller quantity of UK-O2 phones.

My hunch is that Apple won't have different baseband firmwares for each country they sell the phone in - that would be nasty from a development point of view since regression testing of firmware esp. GSM radio stuff has to be done perfectly if you want a properly working phone. However Jobs has gone on record as saying it's 'cat and mouse' therefore you can bet your arse that the UK iPhone will not be trivially unlockable with the current available solution.

Remember that the iPod Touch hasn't been jailbroken yet, which is the fundamental first step to getting your own files onto the iPhone for hacking it.

That said, the UK is a better legal environment in which to *force* your provider (O2) to unlock your phone for you so hacking may not be the only option.

If the new firmware doesn't re-lock the phone, then the best and cheapest bet will be to acquire a phone from the States at their lower cost, then unlock it with current tools (which are easy now), then restore with new UK firmware. Voilà - a UK-spec iPhone at US money with no UK contract. However we won't know until the new firmware comes out.

Don't worry, I will keep this forum updated, until I'm told to stop boring everyone with crap about Apple

[chris.mapey]

page3 said:

iPhone = £269 + 35 p/m = £899

iPod Touch (8Gb) £200
Blackberry on T-Mobile Web'n'Walk 20 (18 months) £89 + £25 p/m + £5 p/m (est. voicemail use)
= £829*

* doesn't include WiFi roaming

I've got to say that you can beat that deal with T-Mobile easily. I'm on a 12m Web'n'walk flext 50 tariff - I pay less than £30 inc VAT per month, register as a sole trader via T-Mobile business and you get free voicemail & itemised billing. You can then add WiFi coverage via T-Mobile hotspots (that you can roam to BT etc with, albeit reduced to 300 mins) for a tenner.

Total spend for all calls, MMS, SMS, email (I use the Gmail client on my N73 with no problems) and browsing for my laptop (via the phone or WiFi) for just under £40 per month. Add to that I got the Nokia N73 for free as well and the deal is a good one

As an aside - I'd love an iPhone, but not on O2, as their data billing is legendary...my brother in law got a bill for £16000 for one month's GPRS charges (despite the bill showing no data use ) - took him three months to sort it out, incurring bank charges as O2 kept trying to take a DD for £16000 despite stating that they wouldn't...

Personally with the experiences of friends, family & customers (I used to manage a Phones 4U branch) I would rather invest in a sqadron of carrier pigeons rather than spend any money with O2...

To all you iPhone coverters - the phone is great, but the network may well make your life a living hell (you didn't want a reliable method calls / texts / emails anyway did you?)

I'm gutted that T-Mobile aren't getting the iPhone - looks like a N95 8Gb for me at upgrade then

Chris

[Avantone]

Initially it seemed expensive, but on reflection, I'm a bit of a tart and wouldn't want one if everyone had one - it's actually a reasonable premium for a premium product.

I'll wait till Jan/Feb though for the 16GB model

[ehyouwhat]

chris.mapey said:

As an aside - I'd love an iPhone, but not on O2, as their data billing is legendary

As far as I know the iPhone tariffs come with unlimited data allowance (subject to fair use, but then so is the T-Mobile Web'N'Walk service), so it shouldn't be a problem for the vast majority of people anyway. There are heavy users that might have a problem, but numbers of such will be limited.

I'm not saying the service is cheap - £55 for 1200 minute, 500 texts and unlimited data isn't especially great, especially if you've been a T-Mobile customer - but it also isn't awful. I should also point out that the prices I've quoted are Carphone Warehouse prices - 'online' prices with O2 may well be cheaper, especially after a month or so.

Personally I would much rather be an O2 customer than a T-Mobile customer. Admittedly the O2 customer service system is shockingly crap, but at least I get reasonable reception for the majority of the time. T-Mobile reception was patchy at best in my last two homes, and a recent test as part of my work has shown the new place isn't much better with T-Mobile either.

It's horses for courses, as with any handset or indeed any device at all. I get first-hand experience of dozens of phone handsets every year within my role, and I see poor handsets and great handsets alike. The iPhone is flawed, make no mistake - it's large (if thin), relatively slow in terms of network speed and has ommisions (such as MMS apparently). But it's also revolutionary in the way you can interact with it, and for that it is worthy of consideration for anyone who wants one. It's also a jack-of-all-trades, with superb iPod functionality in the same package as phone and PDA positives. 99% of people could use it as a sole device, and believe me when I say there aren't many standard handsets that perform truly well as a music player.

I currently swap and change between four different handsets for personal use: a Nokia 8600 Luna, a Nokia N73 Music Edition, an XDA Orbit and an HTC TyTN II. I expect (and hope) the iPhone can take the place of at least a couple of those (probably the N73 and the Orbit as they are the oldest).

For those who don't want to go the Apple route, there are a number of alternatives here and on the horizon. The Sony Ericsson W960i is a superb handset and one that most people will be able to get on with when it is released. It's quite small, highly powered and has a similar storage capacity to the iPhone. The interface is nowhere near on the level of the iPhone, but is still excellent. The forthcoming Nokia N95 8GB also offers many of the things that people want - it's a good development on the clever (but flawed) N95. For those who do want the clever interface there is also the HTC Touch and (to a lesser extent) HTC TyTN II - both highly capable and both with nice touchscreen interfaces. And of course for anyone who wants a smaller handset there is a wealth of reasonable kit out there - the soon-to-be-released Sony Ericsson K850i will surely be one of the best.

Edited to correct name of handset in order to stop any confusion.

Edited by ehyouwhat on Tuesday 18th September 21:01

[Noger]

Away from home for a few days, my TYTN II ...

a) Directed me round a nasty accident which would have made me very late for an important meeting
b) Surfed the net at around 1Mbps looking for a decent place to eat (aided by Live Search knowing exactly where we were)
c) Played me some nice music over Bluetooth to my stereo headset
d) Let me receive MMS pictures of my 15 week old son as he woke up

And the usual mail and phone call stuff. And didn't fall over once !

What I really want is a 16Gb microSDHC card now. Next year, hopefully.

Wouldn't disrespect anyones choice of getting an iPhone, if it suits their usage scenario. But for me, there is no "iPhone Killer" it will be a still birth. But I do get the feeling that some people are going to be regreting their choice by 9th May 2009 when their contract finally ends. There are a few compromises that simply can't be hacked.

[cyberface]

Noger said:

Away from home for a few days, my TYTN II ...

a) Directed me round a nasty accident which would have made me very late for an important meeting
b) Surfed the net at around 1Mbps looking for a decent place to eat (aided by Live Search knowing exactly where we were)
c) Played me some nice music over Bluetooth to my stereo headset
d) Let me receive MMS pictures of my 15 week old son as he woke up

And the usual mail and phone call stuff. And didn't fall over once !

What I really want is a 16Gb microSDHC card now. Next year, hopefully.

Wouldn't disrespect anyones choice of getting an iPhone, if it suits their usage scenario. But for me, there is no "iPhone Killer" it will be a still birth. But I do get the feeling that some people are going to be regreting their choice by 9th May 2009 when their contract finally ends. There are a few compromises that simply can't be hacked.

There is one fatal compromise that can't be hacked - network bandwidth. A phone with the iPhone's OS and application capabilities really could do with 3G data and it hasn't got it. EDGE simply isn't fashionable in Europe and *especially* not the UK after the money spent on 3G spectrum auctions

I'd be interested to hear your battery performance given your app footprint - I was trying to do push email and a bunch of other apps on my old Treo and the battery couldn't last one business day. It was unusable without carrying spare batteries, chargers, etc. - none of which are a problem with the iPhone.

Of course the iPhone can't consume enough data unless you have constant Wifi.

What will be very interesting is whether another phone manufacturer uses a touchscreen like Apple's (which must be an off-the-shelf item by volume now) and Linux, plus a 3G chipset and see whether Jobs really was full of shit when he said that 3G and iPod functionality simply wouldn't be compatible with acceptable battery life

As a result the iPhone is a real phone for the extremes - the extremes of fashionista airheads who just want the branding and the flash eye-candy, and the extremes of hackers who want to piss about with the system (like me). I don't see the iPhone being a roaring success for *everyone* regardless of marketing - we've now got used to better than GPRS data over here and the iPhone simply won't deliver unless you find somewhere with EDGE, or Wifi, and I've already said how fragmented and badly integrated Wifi is in Britain.

As to your comment about 'regretting contracts' - too bloody right - the iPhone only makes sense right now IMO for light users who want a phone and iPod in one (and don't really care about advanced functionality or much data), and hackers who wouldn't take out an O2 contract anyway

But I think you'll find that there are many more of the 'phone, text and iPod only' crowd than we technical types who can actually use the functionality provided by modern mobiles. So it'll do alright. It's not perfect though, by any means, regardless of how much Kool-aid you drink But I think it's a fun piece of kit. And given voice+data plan costs in the UK right now, I'd rather have GPRS than 3G....

[Noger]

Absolutely, as a converged iPod + phone it is a great device. Downloading choons over HSDPA on the fly would be awesome, and I think Jobs is bang on the money when he says that battery life is key to MP3 players.

Interesting about the touch screen, and I wonder if one of the battery consumption "problems" is the FTIR operation ? If it is to be generally available that would be fantastic, multi touch is the solution to so many small device touchscreen woes.

Difficult to tell on battery life really, it is in and out of the car a fair bit, seems pretty good though although it is not a small device so has a fairly chunky battery.

Would have liked to see GPS onboard as well. Have have external GPS for a while, and never really got the usefulness of onboard. Think we will see more and more uses of an integrated solution.

Depending on usage, "3G or GPRS" is right now a choice worth having a discussion over (HTC are still producing non 3G smartphones, no doubt for the same battery life reasons as Apple). But in 18 months time ? Or even 12 months. Data costs are dropping so fast.

[cyberface]

Noger said:

Would have liked to see GPS onboard as well. Have have external GPS for a while, and never really got the usefulness of onboard. Think we will see more and more uses of an integrated solution.

Depending on usage, "3G or GPRS" is right now a choice worth having a discussion over (HTC are still producing non 3G smartphones, no doubt for the same battery life reasons as Apple). But in 18 months time ? Or even 12 months. Data costs are dropping so fast.

Pulling data plan costs out of the equation, the issue to me is really one of battery life vs. likely usage on battery, compared to the components required to achieve said functionality. IMO the phone is the critical component - if your other gadgets crammed into your device burn the battery so that you can't make that emergency call when you need it, or you need to carry hundreds of batteries around, then the device is sub-optimal as a phone. My Treo 680 was a prime case of this - a 4-6 hour battery life meant that I couldn't take it fully charged to client site in the morning, and then make a call when I'd finished work without either keeping it charging at my desk or carrying two batteries.

Now some clever decisions could be made in the firmware - disabling 3G radio / powering Bluetooth off / killing your music etc. if the battery gets too low (so you can be warned but still be able to make that vital phone call) but this will depend on the systems integration.

I'm in financial IT, not telecoms or engineering so did a bit of research about the chipsets and how they stack up.

The iPhone uses as few ICs as possible:

As you can see, the iPod RAM on the left in a cage, the ARM CPU in the middle, and according to this there are single ICs for each major function: a main CPU, an audio processor, a Li-Ion battery charger, a Wifi 802.11b/g chip, a GSM power amp, a Bluetooth chip, a GSM baseband radio chip, and a mystery Apple-branded chip. The other big chips are flash RAM. This is pretty neat and integrated, and I'm making the non-EE's assumption that well integrated systems with fewer components are better for battery life because of both increased efficiency and the obvious fact that fewer ICs and logic boards means more potential volume for a bigger battery!

Trying to find a 3G do-it-all phone internals, I settled on the Nokia N95 since it's meant to be good and has LOADS of integrated gadgetry:

This logic board appears to take up the majority of the surface area of the phone (in comparison, the iPhone logic board covers the top quarter or so of the device). Additionally, it's double sided and the other side contains even more chips:


So it sounds like current 3G chipsets aren't simple enough to bung in Apple's tiny space. And if they're power hungry as well, then dissipation of the heat will be a problem in an iPhone-like design.

I'm not an RF engineer so am guessing here, but wouldn't a software defined radio setup with clever software allow a big manufacturer to build a single radio chip with integrated processor to do the protocols, and then it's just a question of attaching the correct aerials for the differing frequencies used by GSM networks across the world? I know that GSM, GPRS, EDGE take a wild leap in actual radio protocol technology to the 3G types (still learning about this) but with all the clueless baying on the internet about 3G iPhones and 3.5G data in do-it-all handheld phones that still have a full day's battery life... I thought it'd make sense to add some science into the debate.

After all, we are limited not only by battery technology and volume, but also by thermodynamics. The smaller the IC process, the more concentrated the heat is and dissipation becomes a concern... and I don't think anyone wants their 3G iPhone to contain heatsink and fan combinations

From a few weeks' experience now, I can confirm that the iPhone gets rather warm when on a long call in a low reception area (i.e. in my underground office) - the GSM amp has to crank up the power because I'm underground, and more heat is generated. Apple caught on to the idea of using metal cases as free heatsinks ages ago, but the back of my iPhone was very toasty - some people would find it uncomfortable. This was an extreme case - long phone call in low reception area. If the phone was 3G - would this have been even worse??

[Noger]

"or you need to carry hundreds of batteries around"

But not an option with an iPhone of course. I have a portable multicharger unit from Proporta. Not had to use it yet.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/ret...

has pictures of the Tytn II internals. Perhaps a bit neater than the Nokia, but nowhere near the simplicity of the iPhone.

Heat is most definately an issue in any device. My Samsung Q1U, despite having what is supposed to be a very low heat Intel CPU gets pretty hot. So does the phone.

Everything is a compromise. I am prepared to give up some battery life for data speed and GPS.

[cyberface]

The iPhone non-removable battery makes it a non-starter for most business users anyway apart from some hackers and 'executives' who only use email and phone, though those will most probably have crackberries anyway.

Not trying to convince anyone here, I'm well aware of the compromises and reckon that the iPhone is more of an iPod than a smartphone. But it shows *so* much promise to me in terms of the OS and UI frameworks... a low-power integrated 3G chipset would make it one hell of a machine...

The funny thing is that it's clearly targeted at non-techie 'consumers' who already carry both an iPod and a phone. I guess Apple have covered both bases by offering the iPod Touch for those who won't downgrade to GPRS and want better data / battery / etc. or have a corporate crackberry... But even as a clear 'consumer electronics' device, it's been seized on by the hacker community more so than much more data-capable phones. Bizarre

(BTW there's a hell of a lot of electronics in that TyTN II !!!!! Is it Windows-only or has someone managed to get Linux on it?)

[Noger]

Yeah, having a "proper" OS on a device is something a lot of manufacturers have missed tricks over.

And I count WM6 in this too, it is actually a pretty good environment for a PDA, but I don't want "Pocket" Word I want Word. I want real OneNote, I want real Outlook. Not things that are a bit similar and maybe will sync if the wind is in the right direction.

Which is why I love my UMPC so much, it just IS a Windows machine, it isn't vaguely compatible. (sorry, am an M$ wh0re at heart).

Linux has been ported to the HTC machines for a while I think. And I read that they were looking around for a Linux partner to officially support it.

[cyberface]

Agreed. Oddly enough it's the chinese market with demand for dirt-cheap phones that seems to be leading Linux on smartphones, with no royalties to MS, Symbian, etc.

WRT to your 'M$ whore' comment... here's a thread about an Apple product with a rabid Apple fanboy and an 'M$ whore' chatting away without it degenerating into puerile platform wars. Who'd have thunk it eh? Must be more mature over here than on the rest of the internet

[Noger]

Hehe, very true ! (won't last though )

A friend had a Zaurus 6/7 years ago, running Linux. Was pretty impressed at the time.

I can see why as a package some people might sniff at the iPhone, but nobody with a modicum of interest in technology can fail to be excited by the interface. That is real innovation (or at least bringing FTIR into the consumer world) and has to be applauded. Actually more than applauded, shouted out to other manufacturers that this is a "good thing".

In reality I am a ink/touchscreen fan more than anything, and that is why I tend to fall into the M$ fan camp, they provide more support for this than anyone else. Handwriting recognition in Vista really is something to behold. But the support for "touch" has never been that good, simply because of the digitisers. They are more pen based Wacom based, derived from CAD applications. The problem with using it with a finger is that you can't right or left click a finger ! The ghost mouse, and press-and-hold, right clicks just don't translate. Which is were multi-touch comes in. And I want it.

Where multi touch, indeed any touchscreen, falls down is bulk text entry. I have used them all from Grafiti, Fitaly, DialKeys, Handwriting Recognition, Virtual Keyboards, and nothing is the same - which is why the Crackberry is so popular. A little keyboard on an iPhone would be lovely.