Website development????
Discussion
Hi,
I'm a computing science student at the mo and quite frankly am a little sick of computers and am wanting a change, but thats not the point.
Recently I was approached to give an independent viewpoint on a quote regarding the creation of a website and the figures quoted are astronomically high in my opinion - up to £800 for a simple design with little interaction, no back end db... and then £200-300 to make a pay-per-click ad system (
not only is the designer was prepared to offer that in this day and age but he suggested he could develop it so cheaply). Not only did the prices shock me, but also the fact that the quality of work in the lads profile was terrible and so many standard "don'ts" were ticked I couldn't believe.
Then I was chatting to a friend tonight at work who said that her website for the bussiness she is starting up (a simple e-commerce affair) was going to run into the high £4000's. Is this the norm?
I really cannot believe those prices, as apart from the decent hosting, ssl certificates... where on earth does the money go? Yes it takes a skilled person to put the site together in the first place, but there are so many free options available for things like the e-commerce engine and the like I can't see problems with licencing...
>>> Edited by docevi1 on Wednesday 23 March 23:24
I'm a computing science student at the mo and quite frankly am a little sick of computers and am wanting a change, but thats not the point.
Recently I was approached to give an independent viewpoint on a quote regarding the creation of a website and the figures quoted are astronomically high in my opinion - up to £800 for a simple design with little interaction, no back end db... and then £200-300 to make a pay-per-click ad system (
not only is the designer was prepared to offer that in this day and age but he suggested he could develop it so cheaply). Not only did the prices shock me, but also the fact that the quality of work in the lads profile was terrible and so many standard "don'ts" were ticked I couldn't believe. Then I was chatting to a friend tonight at work who said that her website for the bussiness she is starting up (a simple e-commerce affair) was going to run into the high £4000's. Is this the norm?
I really cannot believe those prices, as apart from the decent hosting, ssl certificates... where on earth does the money go? Yes it takes a skilled person to put the site together in the first place, but there are so many free options available for things like the e-commerce engine and the like I can't see problems with licencing...
>>> Edited by docevi1 on Wednesday 23 March 23:24
The reasons why decent web development costs money are..
Good developers cost money
To correctly scope a project takes time which also means more money
The customer will at some point change their mind, costing yet more money
Then we get into security, hosting, database integration, testing, support etc, etc.
I did not mention the graphic side of it as we are internet engineers and don't produce graphics. When we need them we outsource and expect to pay a decent amount for quality which is easy to integrate.
£4k is really not a lot of cash.
D
Good developers cost money
To correctly scope a project takes time which also means more money
The customer will at some point change their mind, costing yet more money
Then we get into security, hosting, database integration, testing, support etc, etc.
I did not mention the graphic side of it as we are internet engineers and don't produce graphics. When we need them we outsource and expect to pay a decent amount for quality which is easy to integrate.
£4k is really not a lot of cash.
D
As David says £4K is bugger all.
Remember you are looking at things through the eyes of a technically skilled student not someone who ritually spends thousands of pounds on various ancillary services.
The web has been touted as the saviour of all business issues, directors are willing to part with the money.
Its only recently I have got into web stuff (generally deal with 'proper' computing :nomexon: ) and I have to say I really do wish I'd boarded this gravy train earlier, its money for jam.
Remember you are looking at things through the eyes of a technically skilled student not someone who ritually spends thousands of pounds on various ancillary services.
The web has been touted as the saviour of all business issues, directors are willing to part with the money.
Its only recently I have got into web stuff (generally deal with 'proper' computing :nomexon: ) and I have to say I really do wish I'd boarded this gravy train earlier, its money for jam.
Plotloss said:I realised that after I had seen two quotes of similar scale (the first I thought was way to high, the second made me question why I thought that).
As David says £4K is bugger all.
Remember you are looking at things through the eyes of a technically skilled student not someone who ritually spends thousands of pounds on various ancillary services.
Hmm, maybe I should re-evaluate my decision to leave the computing sector after my degree - making websites work is pretty much what I do best.
Its tricky, its not the technical aspect that allows you to charge the decent rates its the quality of the overall package.
People like to see value for money and they arent going to part with the big ticket prices for someone working alone. If they can see a fully skilled support network behind the web developers they will be more inclined to.
Its the old chicken and egg though, how do you create the company without the customers and how do you get the customers without the company.
That story the other day of Srebbe64's nephew is about the best way I reckon, he's done very well there indeed.
People like to see value for money and they arent going to part with the big ticket prices for someone working alone. If they can see a fully skilled support network behind the web developers they will be more inclined to.
Its the old chicken and egg though, how do you create the company without the customers and how do you get the customers without the company.
That story the other day of Srebbe64's nephew is about the best way I reckon, he's done very well there indeed.
docevi1 said:
Hmm, maybe I should re-evaluate my decision to leave the computing sector after my degree - making websites work is pretty much what I do best.
The issue with website work is that everyone on the world is a flippin expert and can chuck up a site fo 10pence.
£4k is the bottom end of the market. Companies who spend £4k are usually small and therefore on a budget, they generally do not appreciate the need for scoping and good design and also know a geezer down the pub who will do it for peanuts.
We generally try to get involved with the £40k plus projects as they are generally more interesting, although it is a much harder market to get into.
We work really hard to differentiate ourselves from web designers who in most cases are graphic designers who know a little dreamweaver and can therefore chuck up a half decent looking site. Where they run into trouble is providing anything more than something which looks nice (which to be honest is all a lot of people want). When they need to add functionality, back end integration, personalisation, real time transactions etc, etc then they really need to speak to people like us.
To say this sector is easy money is a little far of the mark, it can be easy to get some work but building a business is sometimes a little harder.
(says the man who has been writing tenders all week
) If you decide to stay in the game and need work when you get out of education drop me a CV you never know we might be able to help.
D
david, what you say is pretty much exactly what I am seeing (and have done for some time), indeed I used to be one of those people who you mention. The problem is I have very little graphical skills (I can take photos, manipulate them and such but making logos and similar eludes me hence my decision to stop working on such projects).
I guess Plotless is right when he points out I'm still looking through the rose-tinted glasses of a student (
he said technically skilled ), there is so much more to learn about life after Uni 
Thanks for the offer btw david, might take you up on that one day. At the moment I'm planning a short break from the Computing world, not sure what mind as this is what I do.
I guess Plotless is right when he points out I'm still looking through the rose-tinted glasses of a student (
he said technically skilled ), there is so much more to learn about life after Uni Thanks for the offer btw david, might take you up on that one day. At the moment I'm planning a short break from the Computing world, not sure what mind as this is what I do.
There seems to be dozens of web designers out there, with talent, who can't get much work. It's a tough business but definitely can pay well.
Try finding other ways to use web hosting within a business. There are thousands of web designers, but if you can find a niche part of that market that isn't being covered enough, then exploit it.
Try finding other ways to use web hosting within a business. There are thousands of web designers, but if you can find a niche part of that market that isn't being covered enough, then exploit it.
For every real web design company, there tends to be a dozen or more freelancers lurking in the bushes. This confuses pricing matters for uninitiated clients as well as disrupting the development of the bushes.
The pricing forumula is thus "expertise but budget" Expertise reflects our rates and preferred clients, but ultimately the budget is determined by our clients if we are to strike mutually beneficial deals with them
The next time a client (without prior discussion) chirps up "How much does a website cost" play them this file then clear your throat, and remind them that what they are purchasing is your time, nothing more, and the limitation is their budget
My current niggle is that in terms of our ability (clients budgetary limitations!) most of our clients only realise 10% of our ability mainifest in designs. The award winning designers I employ are becoming bored, are changing colour, and today started spinning and making bizarre clucking sounds.
The pricing forumula is thus "expertise but budget" Expertise reflects our rates and preferred clients, but ultimately the budget is determined by our clients if we are to strike mutually beneficial deals with them
The next time a client (without prior discussion) chirps up "How much does a website cost" play them this file then clear your throat, and remind them that what they are purchasing is your time, nothing more, and the limitation is their budget
My current niggle is that in terms of our ability (clients budgetary limitations!) most of our clients only realise 10% of our ability mainifest in designs. The award winning designers I employ are becoming bored, are changing colour, and today started spinning and making bizarre clucking sounds.
Infectious laughter 
Plotloss said:
Its tricky, its not the technical aspect that allows you to charge the decent rates its the quality of the overall package.
Couldn't agree more. Also more often than not, a client is buying into an individual, whether that be a sales rep or a consultant/developer. It rarely has anything to do with the ability to knock a website together.
That said, I've also been amazed/shocked at the work some people get away with charging for. You'd have thought the market for Frontpage themes would have died a death by now!
I get the impression that there are a lot of people out there who call themselves web designers, but who in reality can do little more than arrange some pictures and text in Front Page.
I've been teaching myself Actionscript, PHP, MySQL, HTML etc over the past year or so and would consider myself rather proficient. I also enjoy working with graphics too.
I've recently invested in Studio MX 2004, with Flash Professional, and aim to start a little business creating and managing sites, aimed at small businesses.
I don't expect to give up my day job as a Financial Analyst, but definitely believe i have the skills to develop and maintain sites - and complex ones too if needed - for small local businesses.
I have to admit though, the prices mentioned previously surprised me - i would have thought they would be much less.
I've been teaching myself Actionscript, PHP, MySQL, HTML etc over the past year or so and would consider myself rather proficient. I also enjoy working with graphics too.
I've recently invested in Studio MX 2004, with Flash Professional, and aim to start a little business creating and managing sites, aimed at small businesses.
I don't expect to give up my day job as a Financial Analyst, but definitely believe i have the skills to develop and maintain sites - and complex ones too if needed - for small local businesses.
I have to admit though, the prices mentioned previously surprised me - i would have thought they would be much less.
I've done the whole spectrum in my career - putting together a few static webpages for mates, through small start-up companies, big design agencies, and now a sizeable Internet bank.
Basically, for something like that you've got to work on figures of at least £20 an hour, even for the cheapest freelancer. At 8 hours a day, communication time, speccing, travel to see clients, physical typing, covering for down-time between projects, etc. you're talking high hundreds for anything if they're running it as a proper business. It's all about return on investment - if they'll make more than that back from the business leads it generates, then the sums work out.
Aaaaanyway, the point of this: we're potentially doing some serious re-development work at the moment that I've been putting the figures together for. If you break it down to the simplest level (which is about all I can do on a public forum), we're looking at about £5,000,000.00 for 10 dynamic pages. Half a million per page. Back end functionality is already there. Existing pages to migrate are already there. Servers aren't included. That's just web-development costs. Not going to go into why it costs that much on here, but them's the figures I know it'll come to.
-J
Basically, for something like that you've got to work on figures of at least £20 an hour, even for the cheapest freelancer. At 8 hours a day, communication time, speccing, travel to see clients, physical typing, covering for down-time between projects, etc. you're talking high hundreds for anything if they're running it as a proper business. It's all about return on investment - if they'll make more than that back from the business leads it generates, then the sums work out.
Aaaaanyway, the point of this: we're potentially doing some serious re-development work at the moment that I've been putting the figures together for. If you break it down to the simplest level (which is about all I can do on a public forum), we're looking at about £5,000,000.00 for 10 dynamic pages. Half a million per page. Back end functionality is already there. Existing pages to migrate are already there. Servers aren't included. That's just web-development costs. Not going to go into why it costs that much on here, but them's the figures I know it'll come to.
-J
Mark.S said:I agree with everything both of you have said. However, imho, 90% of design companies out there wouldnt be able to develop a better 8 page design (no ecommerce, no database, just design) with a 2k budget than they would with a 20k budget. They just dont have the skill. Give us a 20k budget, and be prepared to win awards for design.
Its tricky, its not the technical aspect that allows you to charge the decent rates its the quality of the overall package.
Couldn't agree more. Also more often than not, a client is buying into an individual, whether that be a sales rep or a consultant/developer. It rarely has anything to do with the ability to knock a website together.
That said, I've also been amazed/shocked at the work some people get away with charging for. You'd have thought the market for Frontpage themes would have died a death by now!
That said, statistically speaking, 90% of those who want websites are new small one man band esq companies, who only have a budget of 2k max anyway.
And that, funnily enough, is the market we end up catering for. With such small budgets, I dont have time to go looking for 40k projects, let alone write tenders for them! It'll come right in time, still thinking about/working on the expansion plans.
Gassing Station | Computers, Gadgets & Stuff | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff