R400D to R500D Anyone done it?
Discussion
As title really. I know the rods and pistons need changed but I'm trying to work out if it would be better to start afresh with a new engine or whether a 10,000 mile R400 would be the best starting point. Also does anyone know what Cams the R500 Duratec uses? I had it in my head that they were Cosworth but the Caterham site suggests they might be the Kent KCDTEC50.
Any Advice would be much apreciated
Any Advice would be much apreciated
As your R400 is most likely on a plenum chamber I'd say there's a good chance your bores are ok so I'd upgrade what you have. I'd put some Supertec 12.5-1 pistons in, a decent set of rods, new crank and rod shells, port the head both ends, key the crank, modify the chain tensioner, some decent cams, 45 or 48 throttle bodies and you are good for 260+bhp. I built one the same as above but with std comp pistons and got 244 bhp. I then built another and got 276 bhp, this one had the 12.5-1 pistons plus over sized valves.
Simon at Ultimate performance is defiantly the guy to speak to.
Jason
Simon at Ultimate performance is defiantly the guy to speak to.
Jason
Jason, it ran about 5000 miles on the plenum and then was refreshed and upgraded to roller barrels and dry sump. It's making about 220+BHP at the moment which was more than was anticipated but it must have been one of the first high port heads as it's an early 2008 car. I'm looking for about 8500 RPM and 260 BHP so your suggested spec sounds about right - interesting what you say about compression ratios. Wondering if the big valves are necessary though. Still need to learn more about cam options, although maybe not as critical as I first thought.
The right cams are obviously important both for power and drivability. Ask Simon what he supplied me as I think they were about right. Simon ports all the Caterham R500 heads and also does work for Cosworth so he is the man! He will also machine the top of the head so the higher lift cams don't touch. I'm not sure how much the 1mm over sized valves contributed to the 276bhp but I am sure the majority of the 32bhp gain I got between engine 1 and 2 was down the compression ratio.
Jason
Jason
Hi DCL (and everyone else). I'm looking at doing something very similar. I've got a Duratec R400 with the Caterham Roller Barrel and Dry sump kits added. My car is an early one- summer 2007, not sure if that makes a difference.
Either way, we should compare notes.
The range of options is utterly bewildering and to be honest, I'm more confused than ever about the best way to go. Simplistically my target would be around the 260hp mark. Ideally I'd like to limit change to the engine and reuse everything else (ancillaries, throttle bodies, exhaust, sump etc). It looks like the ECU will have to be changed as it's locked and not re programmable (so I'm told). Not sure if clutch and/or flywheel will also need to go. Obviously this also needs to make sense economically...
If someone can come up with a simple and repeatable upgrade package, I'd be very interested...
Either way, we should compare notes.
The range of options is utterly bewildering and to be honest, I'm more confused than ever about the best way to go. Simplistically my target would be around the 260hp mark. Ideally I'd like to limit change to the engine and reuse everything else (ancillaries, throttle bodies, exhaust, sump etc). It looks like the ECU will have to be changed as it's locked and not re programmable (so I'm told). Not sure if clutch and/or flywheel will also need to go. Obviously this also needs to make sense economically...
If someone can come up with a simple and repeatable upgrade package, I'd be very interested...
Subirg
Things you need:
Carillo or Arrow rods
Supertec 12.5-1 pistons
VP2 conrod shells
New crank shells
Porting both ends
Decent cams
Upgraded chain tensioner
Decent flywheel and clutch
That lot should see you with 260bhp.
Keyed crank would be nice and while it's apart is no problem to do. Not keyed is considered ok up to 8.5k but any higher keyed is preferred.
Jason
Things you need:
Carillo or Arrow rods
Supertec 12.5-1 pistons
VP2 conrod shells
New crank shells
Porting both ends
Decent cams
Upgraded chain tensioner
Decent flywheel and clutch
That lot should see you with 260bhp.
Keyed crank would be nice and while it's apart is no problem to do. Not keyed is considered ok up to 8.5k but any higher keyed is preferred.
Jason
Edited by Purespeed on Friday 18th October 13:23
as said I have done this and just to explain the route I went down for others considering this, I sold my original R400D engine and I bought another donor engine, cost wise It was a no brainer, my R400 motor had only done 1,500 miles and was as new and as pretty much everything is junked out the donor for rebuild I couldnt see the sense in using a perfectly good engine as the likes of the rods/cams and pistons have no value once removed so I advertised and sold the R400 motor pretty quickly for just under £3000 to a guy doing an engine conversion to a 7, this was a good head start towards the new one as the donor duratec motor from an R300 race car only cost me £300 from a race team and by doing it this way I was £2700 up straight away making it a cheap swap, my car had a decent exhaust and Emerald ecu so I had no other expenses other than the engine rebuild and mapping, oh and a new clutch plate, I was advised the Ap one that was fitted doesnt take to high revs so I changed that.
I used Troy at Northampton Motorsport for my rebuild and I would highly recommend him, I believe he uses some of the names mentioned/recommended in this thread for machining and porting,I gave him a script of what I wanted and he delivered exactly what I asked for in terms of figures and the way the engine makes its power, I went for keyed crank, vernier pulleys, tensioner mod, oil gallery mod, I didnt go for the bigger valves as I wasnt looking for every bhp from the engine so have a hand ported head, I also didnt go for the peakier cams , my max power is at 8,000 rpm and I have a cut at 8750rpm, I am more than happy with the result,the higher powered engine is actually more driveable than the 210bhp I removed and is considerably more entertaining to drive
I used Troy at Northampton Motorsport for my rebuild and I would highly recommend him, I believe he uses some of the names mentioned/recommended in this thread for machining and porting,I gave him a script of what I wanted and he delivered exactly what I asked for in terms of figures and the way the engine makes its power, I went for keyed crank, vernier pulleys, tensioner mod, oil gallery mod, I didnt go for the bigger valves as I wasnt looking for every bhp from the engine so have a hand ported head, I also didnt go for the peakier cams , my max power is at 8,000 rpm and I have a cut at 8750rpm, I am more than happy with the result,the higher powered engine is actually more driveable than the 210bhp I removed and is considerably more entertaining to drive
Edited by JeffC on Friday 18th October 13:43
I've spoken to Simon and he has recommended what Jason suggested. Basically a CNC phase 2 with the 12.5:1 Supertech pistons, Carrillo rods, and fitted with his milder cam will give a potential of 270+ BHP. Using the Caterham (Cosworth) 45mm roller barrels and 4:1 exhaust will limit power back to about 260 BHP.
Looks like I may be going down this route so I'll post progress as it happens.
Looks like I may be going down this route so I'll post progress as it happens.
Edited by DCL on Tuesday 22 October 15:47
DCL said:
I've spoken to Simon and he has recommended what Jason suggested. Basically a CNC phase 2 with the 12.5:1 Supertech pistons, Carrillo rods, and fitted with his milder cam will give a potential of 270+ BHP. Using the Caterham (Cosworth) 45mm roller barrels and 4:1 exhaust will limit power back to about 260 BHP.
Looks like I may be going down this route so I'll post progress as it happens.
What are you being quoted re price? If it's reasonable, I could be up for joining in and getting mine done.Looks like I may be going down this route so I'll post progress as it happens.
Edited by DCL on Tuesday 22 October 15:47
From looking at other companies, his prices were very reasonable. I suppose it is all relative and the cost, although considered, was not my primary concern. I was really looking for a no nonsense quote and proven track record - and Simon has that by the bucket load. £3-4K is probably your 'essentials' starting point and you could double that without much trouble depending on what you've got, how much you want to do yourself, and what figures you want to achieve.
JeffC said:
as said I have done this and just to explain the route I went down for others considering this, I sold my original R400D engine and I bought another donor engine, cost wise It was a no brainer, my R400 motor had only done 1,500 miles and was as new and as pretty much everything is junked out the donor for rebuild I couldnt see the sense in using a perfectly good engine as the likes of the rods/cams and pistons have no value once removed so I advertised and sold the R400 motor pretty quickly for just under £3000 to a guy doing an engine conversion to a 7, this was a good head start towards the new one as the donor duratec motor from an R300 race car only cost me £300 from a race team and by doing it this way I was £2700 up straight away making it a cheap swap, my car had a decent exhaust and Emerald ecu so I had no other expenses other than the engine rebuild and mapping, oh and a new clutch plate, I was advised the Ap one that was fitted doesnt take to high revs so I changed that.
I used Troy at Northampton Motorsport for my rebuild and I would highly recommend him, I believe he uses some of the names mentioned/recommended in this thread for machining and porting,I gave him a script of what I wanted and he delivered exactly what I asked for in terms of figures and the way the engine makes its power, I went for keyed crank, vernier pulleys, tensioner mod, oil gallery mod, I didnt go for the bigger valves as I wasnt looking for every bhp from the engine so have a hand ported head, I also didnt go for the peakier cams , my max power is at 8,000 rpm and I have a cut at 8750rpm, I am more than happy with the result,the higher powered engine is actually more driveable than the 210bhp I removed and is considerably more entertaining to drive
Your old engine is still going strong Jeff! Its super quick can't imagine what your new one is like!!I used Troy at Northampton Motorsport for my rebuild and I would highly recommend him, I believe he uses some of the names mentioned/recommended in this thread for machining and porting,I gave him a script of what I wanted and he delivered exactly what I asked for in terms of figures and the way the engine makes its power, I went for keyed crank, vernier pulleys, tensioner mod, oil gallery mod, I didnt go for the bigger valves as I wasnt looking for every bhp from the engine so have a hand ported head, I also didnt go for the peakier cams , my max power is at 8,000 rpm and I have a cut at 8750rpm, I am more than happy with the result,the higher powered engine is actually more driveable than the 210bhp I removed and is considerably more entertaining to drive
Edited by JeffC on Friday 18th October 13:43
Might try and get to Croft with you next year if your doing it again.
tomwoodis said:
Ohh, that looks nice.
Forgive me if this is a silly question but ill ask it anyway. With a head like this, do you still get benefit from porting/polishing the head or is that process rather wasted effort once you've gone to the extent of buying a CNC machined head?
Tom
That's a very good question! I think the general opinion is that the shape is more important. Reading older text books you find theories that a polished surface can cause more pooling of fuel, whereas a rough surface helps mix and vaporous the fuel better. But on a modern fuel injected engine, it is probably the position of the injector that's more important. I think, basically, it's not significant enough to be worth the effort.Forgive me if this is a silly question but ill ask it anyway. With a head like this, do you still get benefit from porting/polishing the head or is that process rather wasted effort once you've gone to the extent of buying a CNC machined head?
Tom
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